Under the Influence
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Under the Influence
So, I'm reading this book per suggestions. I'm only about a third through. So far, it talks about how the disease of alcoholism is physiological and not psychological, and that they cannot control their behavior and why they keep relapsing.
I'm second guessing all my decisions that I have made regarding boundaries because my heart is telling me, "how can you not take calls, not listen to them anymore, let them lay their in their own urine, etc., if they cannot control their behavior?"
It may seem stupid, and maybe I dont get it all because I haven't finished the book. I am trying real hard to set boundaries and to let go and let him do for himself and not get myself caught up in his drama. But how can he when he is lost in the disease from a physical perspective. He drinks whiskey, and does til he blacks out then withdrawals, and looses it. Dts, yes real ones, gets hysterical, combative, all the things that go with it. Once he finally dries out, he seems ok, then goes weeks dry, then right back to the bottle. Won't go to hospital, but he can certainly call me over and over again. He can certainly find a way to gt more booze, but can't do the the basic self care things.
I've read lots of books, go to Alanon, do well at setting boundaries. View my posts if you want to see my story, but now that I'm reading this book, its making me second guess myself, because it kinda is telling me "he can't help it and you're selfish because you're not helping him". And maybe it's not.
Help! I need thoughts, opinions, confirmation, whatever. Maybe my codie is what's telling me this and not the book.
I'm second guessing all my decisions that I have made regarding boundaries because my heart is telling me, "how can you not take calls, not listen to them anymore, let them lay their in their own urine, etc., if they cannot control their behavior?"
It may seem stupid, and maybe I dont get it all because I haven't finished the book. I am trying real hard to set boundaries and to let go and let him do for himself and not get myself caught up in his drama. But how can he when he is lost in the disease from a physical perspective. He drinks whiskey, and does til he blacks out then withdrawals, and looses it. Dts, yes real ones, gets hysterical, combative, all the things that go with it. Once he finally dries out, he seems ok, then goes weeks dry, then right back to the bottle. Won't go to hospital, but he can certainly call me over and over again. He can certainly find a way to gt more booze, but can't do the the basic self care things.
I've read lots of books, go to Alanon, do well at setting boundaries. View my posts if you want to see my story, but now that I'm reading this book, its making me second guess myself, because it kinda is telling me "he can't help it and you're selfish because you're not helping him". And maybe it's not.
Help! I need thoughts, opinions, confirmation, whatever. Maybe my codie is what's telling me this and not the book.
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I did read the "he can't help it" part in the book. I got a slightly different message on the second part though...."regardless of what you do, you can't help it either."
As a result it was a relief. I thought if I stood on my head and waved my arms just right it would be perfect. That book helped me to see there was no magic solution that I could offer.
As a result it was a relief. I thought if I stood on my head and waved my arms just right it would be perfect. That book helped me to see there was no magic solution that I could offer.
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You're right. The "you're selfish" part is my emotions. But I feel that way because it said that he can't help it. So my heart is saying he can't, and you can't either, but you can do other things for him (all the things my boundaries are set NOT to do). Meaning all the things the addict should and could do for themselves.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Rabies is purely physiological too. But you protect yourself.
All first responders learn: save yourself first, then help if you can. On a plane, you affix your breathing mask before you give one to your child.
That's how I understood it.
All first responders learn: save yourself first, then help if you can. On a plane, you affix your breathing mask before you give one to your child.
That's how I understood it.
Lord Have Mercy
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Upper Midwest
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That book really blew my mind in a similar way as what you are describing. I even started thread at the time called "OMG It Is A Disease". I felt maybe a little guilty for being so judgmental of my AW -- but mostly it made me feel more compassionate towards her, which comes from a good place.
So they are alcoholics. They didn't choose to be alcoholics, I feel they get trapped in it, because AT FIRST they drink along with non-alcoholics but they process it differently. Their tolerance goes up much higher, they drink much more, get more hooked, on and on and on. And then they are screwed.
At the same time, I do like the diabetes comparison -- you have a disease, you need to be involved in daily treatment of this disease or you will get very sick and die! You cannot ignore this condition, it is a fact, you are an idiot pretending it is not there. So I balance it out that way.
The age-old debate - personal responsibility vs. "it's a disease". I found the book helpful to add to the mix.
So they are alcoholics. They didn't choose to be alcoholics, I feel they get trapped in it, because AT FIRST they drink along with non-alcoholics but they process it differently. Their tolerance goes up much higher, they drink much more, get more hooked, on and on and on. And then they are screwed.
At the same time, I do like the diabetes comparison -- you have a disease, you need to be involved in daily treatment of this disease or you will get very sick and die! You cannot ignore this condition, it is a fact, you are an idiot pretending it is not there. So I balance it out that way.
The age-old debate - personal responsibility vs. "it's a disease". I found the book helpful to add to the mix.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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He can too help it. The disease is a physical disease, which means that the body craves alcohol. Me personally, if I have so much as a sip of an alcoholic drink, it is like a black hole opens up in the back of my throat and I must continue to fill it. I will continue to do this until I pass out. I have learned this about myself and accepted that I am powerless over it. In my mind, I KNOW I cannot drink or this will happen. Then all the negative effects of drinking will happen. And I don't want them to happen. So what is the answer? Do not drink.
Secondly, it is not YOUR responsibility to help him. Period. He is a grown man. He does not have a cognitive disability, does he? Grown men are actually capable of taking care of themselves. It is true; I have actually witnessed it with my own eyes!
If you continue to help him, he will never have the motivation to change anything. The MOST LOVING thing you can do for a person like this is actually to STOP helping them. It is counter-intuitive bit it is true. You cannot live someone else's life for them. And you cannot make life's decisions for them. They are grown up and will do whatever they want to do. You were not put on this earth to babysit a grown man, were you?
Secondly, it is not YOUR responsibility to help him. Period. He is a grown man. He does not have a cognitive disability, does he? Grown men are actually capable of taking care of themselves. It is true; I have actually witnessed it with my own eyes!
If you continue to help him, he will never have the motivation to change anything. The MOST LOVING thing you can do for a person like this is actually to STOP helping them. It is counter-intuitive bit it is true. You cannot live someone else's life for them. And you cannot make life's decisions for them. They are grown up and will do whatever they want to do. You were not put on this earth to babysit a grown man, were you?
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live 
You were not put on this earth to babysit a grown man, were you?
Feels like I'm growing through a growth spurt right now. Painful, but necessary, and I need the proper nutrition for it.
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Originally Posted by djayr
They didn't choose to be alcoholics, I feel they get trapped in it, because AT FIRST they drink along with non-alcoholics but they process it differently.
But still he chose to start drinking at age 16. He chose.
It's just like anyone who gets themselves addicted to heroin or cocaine. They knew beforehand it was 1) illegal, and 2) addictive. Same with anyone who is addicted to cigarettes. If you started smoking before 1975 maybe you can claim ignorance, but after that...you knew you were going to get hooked.
Nobody is walking innocently down the street and is suddenly is wrestled to the ground and has a bottle of vodka poured down their throat.
I love my son dearly, his alcoholism, pot addiction and rx pill abuse is tragic and complex, but it was completely avoidable. Completely. And the only reason it wasn't avoided was his choice. IMO that's the real tragedy; that he chose it, not that it chose him.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Not my favorite book . . .
I also completely agree with this > They didn't choose to be alcoholics, I feel they get trapped in it, because AT FIRST they drink along with non-alcoholics but they process it differently.
Drinking across the world is basically a right of passage. Most everyone tries alcohol at some point, if not just because of pure peer pressure alone. The alcoholic does processes it differently - that's so true. Those of us who don't have that addictive gene cannot understand the kind of effect it has on those who do. But I think that goes for food addictions, shopping, sex, even internet addictions. They all kind of spring from the same unexplained well.
Not everyone with family who are alcoholics are alcoholics. The genetic connection to most disease is still not fully understood.
I also completely agree with this > They didn't choose to be alcoholics, I feel they get trapped in it, because AT FIRST they drink along with non-alcoholics but they process it differently.
Drinking across the world is basically a right of passage. Most everyone tries alcohol at some point, if not just because of pure peer pressure alone. The alcoholic does processes it differently - that's so true. Those of us who don't have that addictive gene cannot understand the kind of effect it has on those who do. But I think that goes for food addictions, shopping, sex, even internet addictions. They all kind of spring from the same unexplained well.
Not everyone with family who are alcoholics are alcoholics. The genetic connection to most disease is still not fully understood.
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Originally Posted by LifeRecovery
I did read the "he can't help it" part in the book. I got a slightly different message on the second part though...."regardless of what you do, you can't help it either."
As a result it was a relief. I thought if I stood on my head and waved my arms just right it would be perfect. That book helped me to see there was no magic solution that I could offer.
As a result it was a relief. I thought if I stood on my head and waved my arms just right it would be perfect. That book helped me to see there was no magic solution that I could offer.
I also believe (and I think the book says this) that like other diseases it is the responsibility of him living with the disease to get treatment for the disease.
I got that regardless of what I did I could not make the disease go away....
I don't remember if it said or not about codependency in that book but I don't remember reading that it was ours to do for someone that could do it as an adult on their own.
I do remember early in my recovery (and still at times today) feeling guilty, being worried and struggling to not "do" for someone who was an adult.
This is such a hard place for you. I did not struggle with this book like you are talking about, but I have struggle at times with some of the tenants of Al-Anon at different periods in similar ways. Looking back some of these struggles have been my biggest learning curves.
To thine own self be true.
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Originally Posted by LifeRecovery
I do remember early in my recovery (and still at times today) feeling guilty, being worried and struggling to not "do" for someone who was an adult.
I have to actively and purposely work on fighting my feelings of guilt and responsibility for all the bad that happens in this world, and all the things that need to be done. I have to actively and purposely practice, every single day of my life, letting go and letting God. I also realize now that I have to actively and purposely act to keep people who forego responsibility and step aside because they know I will automatically take over the responsibility, OUT OF MY LIFE. I can't tell you how many people who are like this I have let into my life! And then gotten sucked into that sick dynamic, allowing it to rule my life, and then used and abused and hurt!!!
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I haven't read this book, but there is a distinction that is very clear.
The alcoholic CAN choose one thing, or NOT choose one thing:
WHETHER TO TAKE THAT FIRST DRINK
So they CAN choose to control their disease with that choice.
AFTER they choose that first drink, they lose control over their subsequent choices. And as time goes on and their disease progresses, as it inevitably does, they lose control over more and more of their lives.
We don't have to feel guilty, responsible, obligated, or any of that.
The alcoholic makes the choice to take that first drink of their own free will, as an adult. They are responsible for the consequences, no matter how pitiful, devastating, destructive, or hurtful the consequences may be.
Think of it this way. You are in the passenger seat of a wobbly car with 2 loose front wheels. The driver is an alcoholic. There is a split in the road ahead. One way leads to a smooth drive over a well paved road with lots of service stations to repair the car on its path. The other way leads to a bumpy unpaved road that deteriorates quickly, ending in a cliff with no warning where many have fallen off the road to their death.
Both paths are labeled.
Who gets the choice? Who has the steering wheel?
The driver, of course. The alcoholic.
Once the alcoholic has chosen the road to destruction, all the passenger can do is get out of the car before they go down the road to devastation right along with the alcoholic.
For some alcoholics, knowing that their partner/loved one sees that their choice is so scary and destructive is enough to make them stop the car and consider, maybe even choose the other road.
For many, even that is not enough.
It is not your fault that your loved one is an alcoholic. You did not cause it; you cannot control it; and you cannot cure it.
The alcoholic always has the power to choose or not choose that first drink. It is their choice, their game, their life, and they intend to live it however they intend to live it. That is their right, and those are their chosen consequences.
You, beloved partner, have nothing to do with it.
ShootingStar1
The alcoholic CAN choose one thing, or NOT choose one thing:
WHETHER TO TAKE THAT FIRST DRINK
So they CAN choose to control their disease with that choice.
AFTER they choose that first drink, they lose control over their subsequent choices. And as time goes on and their disease progresses, as it inevitably does, they lose control over more and more of their lives.
We don't have to feel guilty, responsible, obligated, or any of that.
The alcoholic makes the choice to take that first drink of their own free will, as an adult. They are responsible for the consequences, no matter how pitiful, devastating, destructive, or hurtful the consequences may be.
Think of it this way. You are in the passenger seat of a wobbly car with 2 loose front wheels. The driver is an alcoholic. There is a split in the road ahead. One way leads to a smooth drive over a well paved road with lots of service stations to repair the car on its path. The other way leads to a bumpy unpaved road that deteriorates quickly, ending in a cliff with no warning where many have fallen off the road to their death.
Both paths are labeled.
Who gets the choice? Who has the steering wheel?
The driver, of course. The alcoholic.
Once the alcoholic has chosen the road to destruction, all the passenger can do is get out of the car before they go down the road to devastation right along with the alcoholic.
For some alcoholics, knowing that their partner/loved one sees that their choice is so scary and destructive is enough to make them stop the car and consider, maybe even choose the other road.
For many, even that is not enough.
It is not your fault that your loved one is an alcoholic. You did not cause it; you cannot control it; and you cannot cure it.
The alcoholic always has the power to choose or not choose that first drink. It is their choice, their game, their life, and they intend to live it however they intend to live it. That is their right, and those are their chosen consequences.
You, beloved partner, have nothing to do with it.
ShootingStar1
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I read that book too and thought it was pretty interesting.
So yes, I think it is true that alcoholics cannot control their behavior and only a small percentage actually recover. The boundaries are not for them, they are for you. If you choose to remain in the relationship you need to find a way to keep him from making you totally crazy.
In my experience none of my "helping" actually did any good. At times he would stop for a bit or slow down and go right back to it. How can you help someone who doesn't want to be helped? It isn't possible.
I have done plenty of the same thing, don't get me wrong. Feeling guilty, thinking I should have said this or that, I should have done whatever, but it was never MY problem to fix. MY problem was why I fell in love with someone who was an alcoholic.
So yes, I think it is true that alcoholics cannot control their behavior and only a small percentage actually recover. The boundaries are not for them, they are for you. If you choose to remain in the relationship you need to find a way to keep him from making you totally crazy.
In my experience none of my "helping" actually did any good. At times he would stop for a bit or slow down and go right back to it. How can you help someone who doesn't want to be helped? It isn't possible.
I have done plenty of the same thing, don't get me wrong. Feeling guilty, thinking I should have said this or that, I should have done whatever, but it was never MY problem to fix. MY problem was why I fell in love with someone who was an alcoholic.
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