Terminally Unique

Precisely.

Tuffgirl

No, you can't change what you don't acknowledge. But you can acknowledge things and not change them. People apologize all the time for things they are A. not really sorry for and B. have no intention to "change" or stop doing.

Maybe I am having an off day - but I got a few apologies and some real "honesty" and then not much else after that. Does it make the apology a little hollow? Heck yes! I'd rather have sustained change than an apology any day. An apology is just words. Action is where I am at these days. Keep your words, they mean nothing anymore.

Terminally Unique

Change (quitting) must come first, yes.

Linkmeister

Every time the exABF would drink, get nasty, say or do terrible things to me, he would apologize. Those apologies were hollow and didn't mean a thing to me because the actions that necessitated the apologies never changed.

Actions do speak louder than words and in his case, the actions never changed - the desire for recovery was never there and as long as I was around to accept the apology and move on to the next incident, he always had an enabler for the next time.

When I changed the playbook by not accepting his apology for something extremely nasty he said to me (in the course of yet another binge), I walked.

When he tried to apologize, I told him that it wouldn't work this time, that the words were hollow and insincere and as long as he had no desire or want to embrace recovery or for that matter, acknowledge that he was an alcoholic, I couldn't continue in the relationship. That was back in March. It's now September and after a very brief time throughout the summer when we did try and resume what we had, I saw that nothing on his part had changed, that he was still who he was before, trying to hide behind the apologies for things said to me, I knew it was time to sever all ties.

MTSlideAddict

I’m glad you took care of you. Being in a toxic relationship is really difficult; I struggled with this for seven years. When I finally snapped and realized the depth of my situation I was almost thirty. Where did my time go? I wanted more for my life than the constant drama of living with an active alcoholic. Then a bunch of stuff happened and now my AH is in recovery. That is where I am at in the present. My RAH would always make hollow apologies during his active alcoholism. At first I bought into them, but then learned that it was just an empty apology. The act always seemed to reoccur.

Now that my AH is in recovery, I think an apology to the drinking would mean something to me. The apology wouldn’t be to me as an “all is better,” but rather an acknowledgment and understanding. The recovery action would have to come first, and then the apology second.

yorkiegirl

I am coming to this thread alittle late. I apologize because I haven't read all the posts & may be addressing what may have already been touched upon.
I don't believe my RAH owes me an apology for his drinking. He is an alcoholic. I don't expect I should apologize for excessive salt intake because I have hypertension.

Yes, his drinking caused me a lot of pain & worry but the pain & worry he caused me he had already caused himself many times over. And I suppose the pain he caused me I had already done to myself, as well. My RAH went into recovery & so far remains sober a year & a half. His actions tell me he is sorry & is doing what he can to make amends. I too owe that to myself & to him (to change my perspectives & my behaviors) and make amends to him & everyone I hurt & blamed due to my RAH's alcoholism. .

The other day he said out of the blue, "I've put you through a lot." It wasn't a "sorry" but it was an acknowledgment that I appreciate very much. Every day that he comes home sober & deals with life's challenges in sobriety are worth more than any "sorry" he could utter.

Having heard too many broken promises over the years I don't need words. I can see & feel the sincerity of actions. He owes that to himself first & foremost. And then, it overflows into the lives of those around him (like his family).

Those who are still drinking are still in the midst of the illness. . .while I feel much compassion for them, I do not ever want to subject myself to my life being contingent on what they do or say. . .And I will pray for them, root for them *from a distance.*

Linkmeister

I was with my ex for over three years and moved cross country so we could be together. Even before I moved, there were apologies via phone or instant messaging - those apologies never changed, even when I kicked him out of our place after a particularly nasty binge where he threatened me, threatened my dog and was inches away from striking both of us. I called the police and he ended up in a homeless shelter for a few days, till he and I found our own places to work on our recoveries-I seemed to move more forward than he did.

Like you, I snapped (in March of this year) when, in another binge, he called me a quitter and told me that my smoking was ruining our sex life (what there was of it) and that once again, we had to "talk" about our relationship.

We had talked, we had yelled, we had been to counseling and nothing happened-I moved forward, he stayed stuck because he didn't feel the need for any form of help. NO, I don't want the drama of having active alcoholism in my life - it's one thing when someone wants to seek recovery and address things, it's another when the person wants an enabler to blame everything on. I won't be the enabler and longer and the ex is alone to deal with his demons as he sees fit.

MTSlideAddict

I completely agree with this statement. The apologies have no depth unless the action of recovery has come first.

I am so glad you pulled yourself out of that situation. Continue on your journey, and stay strong with those boundaries.

I know the mental anguish and the emotional turmoil far too well living in a situation such as yours. I remember crying myself to sleep almost every night with feelings of pain and loneliness. Some nights I would sleep with a Build-A-Bear stuffed toy that had a heart beat device placed in the center of its chest that I could press to feel the thumps of a heart beat cuddled next to me. Or, some nights a picture of my husband and I younger and happier would comfort me. That was a sad way to sleep, and I did this for years. My pain was intoxicating, and I didn’t know how to deal with it. When I “snapped,” I discovered that life did not have to be like that. I began to do things for me. I distanced myself from my AH emotionally. I would watch one of my favorite movies before I fell asleep, and I didn’t mind sleeping alone. I felt happier. It was a step, but I still had him in my life during the daylight hours tugging at my rope to get me to fall back into the hole as I climbed. I had to deal with that. I went to a lawyer to seek separation or divorce options. It was tough to think about, because I spent my entire adult life with him (10 years together; 7 years with him as an active alcoholic). I was in the process of mustering up the courage to get away when he attempted suicide (unrelated). Myself and a family member of his took him to the ER. From there he went in to a psychiatric hospital, and now to outpatient rehab. The psychiatric stay and rehab were his choices. My home is peaceful now, and through some counseling with one of the social workers at the psychiatric hospital I feel confident that I can give “us” another chance, but if he ever drank again I would be gone. That is a firm boundary.

I still have a lot of work to do on myself as I learn to become more independent, and discover “me” again; I became so entangled with him, I lost myself. We are both in recovery.

An apology for his actions while drunk is not expected; he does not understand fully what I have been through. If he did decided to give me an apology for his choice to drink in itself, I would feel that he is attempting to make amends and to understand that his drinking habits has caused the turmoil, but yet he continued to drink regardless.

Linkmeister

MTSlide- that's quite an emotional journey you have been on. Sending hugs your way for what you have been through.

I can relate to you sleeping with the stuffed bear and crying yourself to sleep-it was bad enough when I lived 3000 miles away from him but the loneliness of living with an alcoholic was so overwhelming. My poor dog-he knew when the binges were coming and there were many nights I cried myself to sleep with puppy next to me, licking away my tears.

There is no doubt that is tough to break away-whether it's divorce, separation, or ending a committed relationship-in my case, I kept think that "better" was just around the corner, if only he would stop drinking and binging. But, he would stop, make a half-hearted attempt at recovery to placate me and then revert back to old behaviours. I was constantly walking on eggshells and in spite of Al-Anon and the wonderful people in my home group, I could never make that clean break, thinking to myself that being "with him", especially in a town where I was new (2 years), was better than not being with him.

During this time, we had our own places and as each day passed, as each binge happened, I realized that I had my own little refuge here, that I was really beginning to enjoy being on my own, getting comfortable with myself, learning to like me, to accept me for who I am, warts and all. I may have been living alone - aside from puppy dog - but I wasn't alone-aside from Al-Anon and coming ere to SR, I did volunteer work, met people on my daily dog-walks, discovered some wonderful people in my neighbourhood.

The ex was totally alone in the sense he would not go back to AA, therapy, group therapy, saying "nothing" worked for him. He had estranged himself from his family and kids and basically had work and m,e and that was it. I was beginning to recover while he wasn't and when I went back to school, that seemed to tear it for him-he was furious that I would put myself back into debt for school instead of help him pay his fines (2 DUI's), get a vehicle, so we could resume living together. Those were some of the biggest fights we had and it was a crack he made to me that I was a quitter-I would never quit smoking or finish school that was my tipping point.

I knew that the path he chose to follow wasn't where I wanted to go and that me staying in the relationship was holding me back from what I wanted to accomplish. It was very hard to do and even now, there are days where I wonder if I made the right choice, but seeing him recently, talking to him, knowing that he was still drinking (he CAN control it....HA HA), reinforced my decision to leave.

So, here I am, in a city 3000 miles away from my family, trying to make it on my own. I love the city, the people and where I live. The job market sucks (I work part time at a local bookstore), but I am getting by. I got 98% in my computerized accounting course-made some good friends there. When I realize what I do have-family who loves and supports me, friends who do the same, a wonderful dog, a house with a view of the ocean....yeah, I am so eternally grateful for what I do have.

NYCDoglvr

I think it helps to understand that a big part of recovery is taking responsibility for actions you have taken that hurt others (8th & 9th Steps). To learn: "I am responsible" (tattoo is strictly optional, lol). When we alcoholics make amends it is for specific things we did. For example, "I'm sorry I didn't show up for our daughter's graduation". But we don't use drinking as an excuse. It would be wrong to say "sorry I was so drunk I didn't show up...."

I can't imagine saying "sorry I drank" to someone because it wasn't about them or against them. In the same way, no one can get sober for someone else, we have to do it for ourselves to work. The point is, I'm responsible for everything I did while drunk. Expecting an apology for drinking is like expecting an apology from someone who suffers from depression or is bi-polar.

Terminally Unique

Is drinking not an action?

But it can nevertheless be done in spite of the damage to someone else, which is the same thing as doing something against them.

I'm not inclined to agree. Some people give up their very lives for their families. Giving up alcohol for your family is entirely possible, and is not wrong in any way, shape, or form.

And not for everything prior to being drunk, which necessarily includes the drinking?

skippernlilg

I think I've heard "I'm sorry" from the As in my life for myriad things, including the act of drinking itself.

You know what? I'm sorry, too! That's just an awful life to live any way you look at it.

The words don't make everything better. Healing does. I'm responsible for that for me. When I see evidence the other person's life is more healthy, and I become more healthy, then maybe I will have a chance to have a healthy life with that person.

Maybe.

Terminally Unique

I'll just say that it is just plain wrong to expect one's loved ones to settle for uncertain, tentative "sobriety," where the next binge is right around the corner, and to put them through any further trouble. Alcohol and drugs completely obliterate one's moral conscience, and I believe that some measure of compassion is certainly due to addicted people on account of their predicament, but this does not mean that their family need tolerate the anti-social behavior that it brings.

It is one thing to not realize what is going on when in the grip of addiction itself, and quite another to try and excuse it once we get out of the prison of addiction. If you cannot see the immorality of your drinking/using once your head has cleared, something is deeply wrong. To those who are tempted to try and explain to me how addiction or the 12-Steps work, do bear in mind that I have more experience with both than most people.

I can promise you that you will never be able to play me like you can sympathetic never-addicted people who have not been through it themselves. Reading the F&F forum is not easy for me, not at tall, but my sympathies are squarely with them.

Carol Star

I believe it is the Lundy book that says they actually LOSE the ability to feel guilt and remorse.....that is scary. As a teacher too I heard crack babies do not develop a "conscious" (or care what they do).....big holes in their brains.......SCARY stuff......

Terminally Unique

Not when it comes to calling addicted and formerly-addicted people on their twisting of reality. Knowing that never-addicted people can't really understand how addiction works, they almost always try to manipulate never-addicted people, in particular, their perception of addiction itself. I'm sure almost everyone in this forum has experienced the phenomenon. They won't do this if they learn that they are talking to one of their own, so to speak, and will often change their story once they do.

Terminally Unique

Addiction is essentially a reversion to a feral state. It can effectively turn someone into a sociopath.

yorkiegirl

Though not "the addict," some of us have been around addiction for so long (our whole lives), we behave addictively & alcoholically as if we are. . . While I may never *fully* understand what addicts experience and endure, I do feel like I understand. . . Truly, I wish I didn't. . .

Human beings are pretty interesting and complex, we don't necessarily have to have the exact experience to empathize, have compassion and even understand at a deep level. . .

Carol Star

Who cares how we get to serentiy as long as we get there.