Financial Investment in Sobriety

Old 03-21-2011, 10:00 AM
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Financial Investment in Sobriety

Alcoholism and money woes go hand in hand, I know that. But how do you decide what the best ROI (return on investment) is going to be with regards to sobriety??

As many of you know, I split from AH for 6 weeks ($1300) in order to get myself sane. Good investment. AH decided to go to a counselor to get me back. He's seeing this counselor 3 times a week, but is drinking inbetween, so I'd call that a bad investment. He won't go to AA, another bad financial call--if you go to AA for 90 days in a row and throw a buck in the basket, that's $90, as opposed to about $4k for therapy if you go 3x a week. This counselor is a non-network provider, so it's 50% subject to a high deductable, so it's still pricey.

Counselor is talking about suggesting rehab--by that time we'll probably have hit the deductible, so might not be that bad an investment.

My financial story: I am the breadwinner, and I (foolishly) have supported and cosigned a number of things--a house for HIS mother and brother, as well as HIS business loan--plus I am the sole person on the mortgage for our house because his credit is crappola. He has no money, except now he has a small inheritance from his mother, who passed away last summer. Frankly, I'm kind of happy to just let him do his thing with his money and I can do my thing with my money.

I have been trying with all my power to pay off this debt, and in 16 months have paid off $60k. In spite of the fact that I am paying all the bills, he has managed to put a $15k dent in his mother's modest inheritance since December. Has my paying the bills been an enabling pattern on my behalf? Absolutely. But since I moved out--not sure how to leverage that.

I know I have to put first things first and straighten myself out, but I don't want him to blow through his inheritance (legally I have no claim to it) because I am in my late 50s with 0 in the bank, because of many unfortunate circumstances related to his mother, his business, and the recession, since 2008.

So, where is the best bang for the buck in recovery? Just wondering.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:15 AM
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For me, it was my divorce lawyer's retainer.

The two stints in inpatient rehab (including IOP,) cost me roughly $17K out of pocket.
The alimony will run $100K
Two mortgages I took in the divorce settlement, one on a rental I can't sell in this economy, one I currently reside in, both upside down: $425K

The peace of mind knowing he won't destroy me financially, mentally or spiritually:
Priceless.

Just my proverbial 2c. I had no earthly idea a relationship with an alcoholic (who didn't drink at all when we started dating so many years ago) would be so friggin expensive. And that's just the monetary - not to mention the time, energy and angst.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:23 AM
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Well, Im pretty much in the same boat as you....

$10,000 for rehab in January (That ended up to be pissed down the toliet, RELAPSE)
$2800 for him to rent a uhaul and move to another state (He said it was Gods plan)
$25,000 for him to live on, and pay some bills (That I now owe taxes on, he broke IRA'S)
$30,000 for taxes from the business that we owe (Which he no longer works here, since he moved away)

So when you find the best bang for the buck....PLEASE SHARE!!!

(Im thinking divorce is the best bang for my next buck) Tired of working my butt off
to pay someone to live like a rock star....
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:36 AM
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If it were me, I would do everything within my power to separate all finances. Marriage to an alcoholic was THE worst financial move I ever made. If you cosigned loans then his first priority should be to use his inheritance to pay off that loan and absolve you from the obligation. Anything joint should be payed off and closed/refi'd.. etc.

If his mother passed then sell that house you co-signed on, kick the brother out if he's living in it. Get out from under that ASAP.

I just don't get it when anyone expects to be taken care of. What is up with that?!?!?
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:17 PM
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Oh man, and here I was thinking that I was getting bled dry more than others! Makes $20k for lawyers seem like a drop in the bucket. Oh wait, probably another $30k-40k in alimony. Oh, and the $6k we paid for rehab. And the $5k on hospital bills. And...ah, whatever.

I've tried more than once to encourage AW to select providers that are in-network on the insurance. Not once has she selected a psychiatrist, counselor, rehab facility, or other doctor that has been in-network. In the big picture, though, the best ROI is anything that leads to lasting sobriety, or to getting the alcoholic out of the financial picture.
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Old 03-21-2011, 01:04 PM
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I never married the guy, but I still let it affect me financially.

$25,000 Transferred from my bank to XABF's to help cover his "bills"
$25,000 Credit Card debt
$10,000 Savings I used to have
$50,000 Estimate of how much I spent out of my bank account on things he decided we have to have that I really didn't want (I am 100% certain this is on the low end)

Soooo... I would have the equivalent of at least $100,000 in savings/credit limit right now ($85k in savings), and that's just after three and a half years with him.
And that's ignoring all the loans out of my retirement plan used to bail him out repeatedly.

I'm currently paying down the credit card debts, getting my bills down.

For my recovery I am spending a little over $500 per month, and most of that is my car payment. (I finally decided I deserved something new, and I am counting my car as part of my recovery, because it is a giant change for me from my poor rust bucket. The rest can be split between my therapist, the books I buy periodically, cat food, my $1 for Al-Anon, and a budget to do something fun of varying expense every weekend).
This is a change from over $500 per week on average with XABF.

(I am not counting my rent in either one, because the apartment was always mine, even when he moved himself in he was never added to the paperwork.)
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:05 PM
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They don't go to AA because AA works.

They crow about 'it's just not me' 'I don't believe in that' 'it's a cult/religion' ....

all of which is bs.

the truth is they know AA is where the solution is.

I met a woman back when I was night auditor of a hotel
this woman was almost a stage-played stereotype of
the typical uptown new york 'theatre-type'
she told me she was married to a semi-famous actor
who spends all the big bucks he makes
by bouncing in and out of rehabs.

she said if her family wasn't already rich
she'd have divorced him long ago.

he also refused AA because he was 'famous'
and couldn't 'be seen as' ... 'one of those people'...

if they don't want it they don't want it.

I don't know if maybe I've missed something in the thread
and I apologize if I have
but you have no obligation
to continue funding this man
either the addiction or the recovery.

did I miss something
or did you already know that?

the more 'well' we get
the more easily the word 'no' becomes final.

no one can ever beat the price of AA
that's why the go to such great lengths
to downplay it.
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by barb dwyer View Post
the more 'well' we get
the more easily the word 'no' becomes final.
Thank you, this was my aha moment for today. That I am actually getting "more well."
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SoloMio View Post
So, where is the best bang for the buck in recovery? Just wondering.
In yours, not his.

If you put all your resources--emotional, spiritual, financial--into your own recovery, you will get the most "bang for your buck." As for his recovery, cut your losses.

L
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:36 PM
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^^^^^Very good LaTeeDa !!!!!!! Bravo !!!^^^^^


Well, like most everybody else.
This past year:1st OVI fines/fees/more for car insurance(3 days in jail), 21 day in-patient rehab,3 day in-house driver intervention program. 2 separate hospital visits co-pay for suicide attempts. Out patient re-hab program. AA all along(give her credit for that ! Oh boy what a bargain !). Second OVI fines/fees/car insurance dropped for her and raised for my son (good student,clean driver) and me (perfect driving record). More AA. More out patient re-hab program. Just got out of jail for 30 day for the second OVI. 2 weeks later and after a AA meeting goes to bar and blacks out. Oh, she gave the bar maid a $100 tip on the credit card and sez she does'nt remember ?

Investing in a alcoholic is like investing with Bernie Madoff.
All promises with nothing in return !

Last edited by LifesALongSong; 03-21-2011 at 06:38 PM. Reason: add
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:59 PM
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3 months at the rescue mission. Newer building run by the Masons (I think, never know about those folks lol) Tightly run place. Cost: Free (help out on chores).
AA, twice a day for 90 days. Free but I donated what I could.
Sponsor on call 24 hrs: Free.
AA Clubhouse to hang out in safe place: Free.
Dances, conferences, out of town caravans to speaker meetings: Free.
Saturday breakfasts: small donation.
If your broke and kicked out of your house like I was you can still recover if you want to. 2 years sober last Saturday and back home!
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by IndyOG View Post
3 months at the rescue mission. Newer building run by the Masons (I think, never know about those folks lol) Tightly run place. Cost: Free (help out on chores).
AA, twice a day for 90 days. Free but I donated what I could.
Sponsor on call 24 hrs: Free.
AA Clubhouse to hang out in safe place: Free.
Dances, conferences, out of town caravans to speaker meetings: Free.
Saturday breakfasts: small donation.
If your broke and kicked out of your house like I was you can still recover if you want to. 2 years sober last Saturday and back home!
Now that's the ultimate ROI.

Congrats, Indy! That's awesome!
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:31 PM
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I'm totally in the wrong business...

Where can I find a woman like some of you? I'm tired of working. Staying home, drinking on your dime, and not doing **** around the house sounds perfect!

Where do I sign up, and how'd I end up having to take care of myself?

Sheesh!

Cyranoak
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:10 AM
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Timely question, as AW - who just went through another "crisis" (DWI) - is back to seeking help through an outpatient recovery clinic - with upfront costs of $2500 to $3500 (and, I'm assuming the meter is ticking).

I know I'm new to this forum, but I'm not new to being the spouse of an AW.

If "alcoholism" is a disease, then is ROI an issue? I mean, if my child had a brain tumor, I'd pour every penny I had into her treatment. Not to mention, I could hold fundraisers, etc. It evokes charity from people. Not so alcoholism.

Because, while some pay lip-service to it being a "disease," many treat it as simply a matter of will power. And only willpower.

This is complicated by the fact that alcoholism is what I call a "mind f*ck disease." If you had cancer, you *know* you have cancer. But, it seems to me that "alcoholism" is more akin to schizophrenia - where your mind (unmedicated) thinks the abnormal is normal and real. And schizophrenics can be *forced* into treatment by the courts IF they are a danger to themselves or to others.

And, even then, once released, there's no guarantee a schizophrenic will remain on his/her medication.

Not so with alcoholics (well, other than through run-ins with the criminal justice system). We almost insist that *they* seek help for their own disease all on their own.

(Note: I recognize that schizophrenia is its own disease and I'm not equating the two. I'm simply trying to draw a parallel that, IMO, exists to some extent).

As for AA, I'm not sure it works for *every* alcoholic. I think it works for some; I think it works less well or not at all for others.

Even being generous, AA only has about an 11% success rate. Now, I'm sure that there are those who'll say: "but for those who commit, it has a 100% success rate."

Well, if I 100% commit to the USOC downhill ski program, I can become an Olympic skier. Is that a measure of success of the *program* or of *my* level of commitment?

I think it begs the question: is alcoholism a disease or a matter of willpower?

Personally, I'm for whatever treatment/program/plan that works. If it's AA, great. If it means alternatives to AA, then great too. And that may be heresy here (or may get me kicked off or flamed).

We're living in a time when we are learning more and more about the brain, chemistry, and genetics. I think it opens up new treatment methods and opportunities. And, as is usual, in the medical field, the "cutting edge" isn't cheap.

This isn't, I don't think, to say that the alcoholic can't be held *responsible* for his/her actions OR the effect it has on others.

If you're done with your A spouse or child - if your patience and finances have run dry (or reached a level that you are no longer comfortable), then you're done.

I've known parents who have schizophrenic children, some hang in there indefinitely, some have simply maxed out and say: "there is nothing more that we can do."

No judgment from me as to either.

As to those questions - when do YOU run out of patience?; when do YOU decide that you can no longer afford to fund treatment? - I think there is only ONE person who can answer that question: You.

In short, I don't think the answer has a LOGICAL answer. You can write down the "pluses" and "minuses" of spending money on treatment for the A in your life all day long. I'm not sure such a list really gets to any answer.

What I think does get to an answer is not logic, but heart. How much "emotional stress" will you incur if you do it? How much "emotional stress" will you incur if you don't do it?

And there's only ONE person who can answer that question: you.

But, hey, that and $3.25 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

I know where you're at - I'm in a similar place myself - and pray things turn out best *for you.*

Good Luck.
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:23 AM
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I agree that diseases are diseases, and that good treatments are worth every penny if the patient is making sure to follow the recovery plan.

If someone I loved was suffering from bipolar disorder, and was working on doing the things they needed to do to get better, of course I'd help pay for their medication if they got stuck. But if they're not working on their own recovery, and meanwhile treating everyone around them horribly, there comes a point where I have to put my foot down and say that it's not my problem to assist anymore, because the patient won't even see it as his problem to fix.

That's the disease of alcoholism, too. If someone is honestly working a program, that's one thing. But if they're just doing lip service? Well, I have better things to do than play "Let's pretend everything is your fault, StarCat!" with an alcoholic.



IndyOG,
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Two years! That's so exciting!
Congratulations!
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:51 AM
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I agree that diseases are diseases, and that good treatments are worth every penny if the patient is making sure to follow the recovery plan.

If someone I loved was suffering from bipolar disorder, and was working on doing the things they needed to do to get better, of course I'd help pay for their medication if they got stuck. But if they're not working on their own recovery, and meanwhile treating everyone around them horribly, there comes a point where I have to put my foot down and say that it's not my problem to assist anymore, because the patient won't even see it as his problem to fix.

That's the disease of alcoholism, too. If someone is honestly working a program, that's one thing. But if they're just doing lip service?
I don't think there's much of a disagreement between us: when YOU are done, you are done. You've defined "done" for you as "not actively working a program."

But, consider: what if YOU were married to John Forbes Nash, Jr.? Here's a schizophrenic who goes off his medication and is, essentially, able to function or deal with the effects of his mental disease. Is that a "program"?

In the conventional sense of the word "program" no, it's not. But, it works for him.

The irony is his personal life is much messier than the movie - A Beautiful Mind - portrays (his wife and he divorced and, then, many years later remarried).

My point is this: I cannot say that YOU are making the wrong decision for you (working a program) . . . anymore than I can say that Nash's wife made the wrong decision for her (Nash working an unconventional program).
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Old 03-25-2011, 02:39 PM
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Personally, I'm for whatever treatment/program/plan that works. If it's AA, great. If it means alternatives to AA, then great too. And that may be heresy here (or may get me kicked off or flamed).
Theres nothing in AA that's heresy that I know of. They just smile and say 'keep coming back."lol I don't think AA is a end all be all. One needs other support and things. Even with AA I couldn't get sober until I was out of my environment.
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Old 03-25-2011, 02:44 PM
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Now that's the ultimate ROI.

Congrats, Indy! That's awesome
IndyOG,
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Two years! That's so exciting!
Congratulations!
Thanks! Looking back it sucked but was the best thing to happen.
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Old 03-26-2011, 02:27 AM
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God I love Cyranoak's posts. Can you write an advice column, please? The no nonsense straight talking plus humour combination is fabulous - and the fact that there's a good dose of compassion and common sense in there too makes me smile (often).

I agree with the advice about investing in your own recovery - and I am soooooo glad that I didn't marry my XABF. I remember in the early days (first red flag now I think about it) being alarmed at how much money was coming out of my account. He'd invite me to dinner then I'd end up buying two bags of groceries (he'd email me a list) on the way there. I did all the running around/picking him up (he had no car) and my gas bill doubled. He would "run out" of the monthly flea/worming meds for his dogs and ask if he could use some of mine while he had them at my place (it's $90 for six doses) and bring some back when he bought some. I'm a sucker for any animal but needless to say he never made it to the vet the whole time we were together. The list goes on. Right before we broke up he wanted me to spend $600 on a bike so we could bike together. I said no and he threw the mother of all sulks. But I was absolutely done with putting my hand in my pocket on a whim (his).

I am in control of my finances. Not in a militant way - but I know where my money goes, what my budget is and what my expenses are. I live really modestly. I remember a clutching feeling in my stomach in the early days that I was feeling out of control of my own money. I know, for sure, that feeling would be a red flag in any new relationship for me.

Cut your losses and start investing in you!

Hugs,

SL.
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Old 03-26-2011, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by stilllearning View Post
God I love Cyranoak's posts. Can you write an advice column, please? The no nonsense straight talking plus humour combination is fabulous - and the fact that there's a good dose of compassion and common sense in there too makes me smile (often).

I agree with the advice about investing in your own recovery - and I am soooooo glad that I didn't marry my XABF. I remember in the early days (first red flag now I think about it) being alarmed at how much money was coming out of my account. He'd invite me to dinner then I'd end up buying two bags of groceries (he'd email me a list) on the way there. I did all the running around/picking him up (he had no car) and my gas bill doubled. He would "run out" of the monthly flea/worming meds for his dogs and ask if he could use some of mine while he had them at my place (it's $90 for six doses) and bring some back when he bought some. I'm a sucker for any animal but needless to say he never made it to the vet the whole time we were together. The list goes on. Right before we broke up he wanted me to spend $600 on a bike so we could bike together. I said no and he threw the mother of all sulks. But I was absolutely done with putting my hand in my pocket on a whim (his).

I am in control of my finances. Not in a militant way - but I know where my money goes, what my budget is and what my expenses are. I live really modestly. I remember a clutching feeling in my stomach in the early days that I was feeling out of control of my own money. I know, for sure, that feeling would be a red flag in any new relationship for me.

Cut your losses and start investing in you!

Hugs,

SL.
Sounds ALL too familiar to me, StillLearning!

I should have known the day I got my very first credit card--I was just out of college in my first real job, and I got a BankAmericard (precursor to Visa for all you young'uns). I was planning on saving it for emergencies. However, ABF (at the time) talked me into using it to buy his-and-her Earth Shoes.

Different era, same sh..

I agree with the comment about Cyranoak--love the reality check!!
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