I was the "other woman." His true love looks great in red and has fancy french labels

[grrl77]

I'm not really sure why I'm telling you this; I suppose I need to talk it out with someone who might understand. I figured you might be the person, as hey, we're all here for the same reason, right? Same commonality, anyway.

I met a guy online the beginning of last year. To say we clicked, is an understatement. I grew more attached, and the closer we got, the more I realized something was really wrong. You see, because we lived far away, we mainly just talked on the phone a lot, and it became evident that his behavior was odd. We talked about it, and he admitted to being an alcoholic, but that he'd been pondering getting help, because he knows it's a problem. He advised he was going to check out counseling through his program at work, which he did. They suggested AA, and he got as far as mapping out a walk route to the nearest AA meeting, and putting the directions in his pocket, but that's about it.

We'd made trips to see eachother, but obviously, as time went on and help did not occur, things just got worse and worse. He missed a flight out here, because he was too drunk the night before, and had to catch a later flight. Things like rude comments when we talked on the phone, picking fights for no reason at all over things that were just so ridiculous, grew more common. It finally came to a head, when things just got to be too much, and he'd began suggesting things I could do, to help him. I asked him what he was going to do to help himself, and he'd suggested that within a certain timeframe, he would get help. I wanted to be the supportive girlfriend, so I went with it. But of course, two weeks before the "due date," he called me up, and broke up with me. No, we weren't fighting, everything - aside from his obvious problem - was good. Great, even. We'd talked about the next time we were going to see each other just a day before. And then, bam. His reasons? Get this. We're "incompatible." We're together for a year, and we're incompatible? Now, I know the true reason behind it, is that he knew either he would have to stop drinking per his own plan, or I would leave him. I guess he figured he'd beat me to the punch and pull out any reason he could think of, under the sun.

Of course I was crushed. This all happened back October of last year. We've remained... friends, I guess, you could say. I went out there this past summer and stayed with him, on my vacation. I guess I wanted to see how he was. Check in on him. He was trashed every evening, and was kind of in his own little world while I sorta did my own thing. Things happened, if you will, a couple nights while I was there, I probably acted a bit irresponsibly, as did he. All in all, though, I had a wonderful time in a city I love, and then the last night I was there, he picks a fight with me, over guess what? Bottled water.

We didn't talk for a number of months after I got home. What's there to say? He said he's sorry, like he usually does, and I know he's sorry, because I know deep down it's the disease, not him as a person. Recently, we've chatted a bit lately. Just general conversations, but one we had a couple nights ago, really got to me. He basically talked to me about how he'd like to find a girl that's just as much into a certain music genre, that he is. Of course, he's loaded when we're having this conversation. He says he wants someone that knows music like he does - can play instruments. It left me stunned.

I play three instruments. I took music theory in college, and performed with many symphonic concert bands from grade six through college level. He never got a chance to know that about me. When I told him all this, he was floored. Said he "didn't ever see this side of me." And it bothered me, which prompted me to write to you.

The thing that I fight with, is this. (Sorry for the long backstory.) I fell in love with a man who has the sweetest core to him. I fell in love with a guy who used to tell me he couldn't wait to wake up to me every single morning, a guy who used to kiss my shoulder and do this cute foot thing under the blankets every night when I was with him, before he drifted off. I reveled in these things. That is the person I fell in love with. It's not that I overlooked his problem - his problem is why I feel our relationship came to a crashing halt. It was doomed from the start, really. But yet here I sit, writing to you, still in love with a man who can't see that his problem is why we ended. It wasn't our differences, or incompatibilities - it was the giant pink elephant in the room that he wanted to ignore and pretend wasn't there, when it was there *all the time*, for me. I'm the one who was left wondering, "Will he even remember this heart-felt conversation we just had? Did he really mean the nasty things he just said? Where are we going?" every. single. night. I'm the one who was left with the aftermath of it all, he'd just pick up a bottle and drink some more and forget it ever happened, and it makes me angry, yet I still love him. I still love him because he's the man I wanted to marry, if the booze wasn't in the picture. The booze does not make him who he is, deep down. It's just unfortunate that as long as it's in his life, he will never find anything meaningful.

I gotta say though - hearing about how he wanted to find another girl that was more into hip hop? Who loved it as much as he did? It stung. I feel like I've been more than patient. This is a man I wanted to marry, heh. That isn't normal for me to say. I feel like I've done so much for him, and loved him more than he'll ever be able to comprehend, hoping for the day that he'd decide, "Okay, I'm ruining my relationship, I've got to stop this."

It just never happened.

I make him sound like a total douchebag. He's not. He's kind, sweet, sincere, a very loving man - when he's not drinking. That's who I fell in love with. Sometimes he's still like this when he's drunk. Other times, he's a jerk. You just never know what you're going to get, pretty much.

We're not even together anymore. So many people tell me to move on. Hit up Al-Anon meetings, which I've done. They've helped. And I've dated other people. But something in the core of me, gravitates back to him. And a part of me feels like there's something he's not letting go of, either, when it comes to us. I remember when he told me he felt closer to me than his own family. I guess I just wonder where all that went, you know? Does it ever go away? Does he even remember what we had? Does he care about me, deep down, or am I just some random girl he was able to get rid of quickly? I'd like to think not, but it all becomes so confusing and so messy on what's real and what's not, that it's hard to tell sometimes.

I guess this is all **** I just think about. He's a good man, and I miss him. He's someone I thought I'd have a future with. We used to laugh about getting married in a Russian Orthodox church even though neither of our families are Russian. Heh. Those are memories I'll forever hold on to, because they're of who he is, deep down. I just wonder where he went, or if I'll ever see him again. Wish I could get him back. I sure miss him.

[LaTeeDa]

Originally Posted by grrl77

I make him sound like a total douchebag. He's not. He's kind, sweet, sincere, a very loving man - when he's not drinking. That's who I fell in love with. Sometimes he's still like this when he's drunk. Other times, he's a jerk. You just never know what you're going to get, pretty much.

You're describing the man I married. I was married to him for 18 years and had two children with him. He was hardly ever a jerk in the beginning. Close to the end, the kind, sweet, sincere, loving man had all but disappeared. The jerk was omnipresent.

I know it doesn't feel like right now, but he did you a favor. You deserve more than someone who is all those things *when they're not drinking* You deserve someone who is all those things without the "but."

Therapy helped me sort out reasons why I accepted less than 100% in a relationship. Why I thought "true love" consisted of scraps. But, I had to go through decades of hell and be brought to my knees before I sought it out. I hope for you it takes less pain and misery. I hope for you that you will desire to sort those things out before you reach the point of total desperation and drag two innocent children down with you.

Best wishes on your journey,

L

[Kittyboo]

I've been sitting in my bathroom crying....crying over the loss of someone I fell in love with too. Then I came out and read this.
He and I went to high school together then got in touch late last year 14 years later....it was long distance as well. We had conversations for hours; 5 and 6 hours long.

He told me he had left his wife and they were divorced now. How horrible their relationship was, she would get drunk and yell at him, hit him, yell at his friends, tell him he was worthles....he even desribed her as evil.
He also has combat ptsd which also effects his emotional numbness, withdrawal, so much. I learned as much as I could about it. But I did not look into alcoholism.

I made the decision, completely on my own, to move to be near him. I had lost my job, he had just gotten one and I knew that if we weren't in the same city...it would never work. I did speak with him about it, but the decision was mine, he supported it, but I didn't want him to feel pressured either. I was more worried about his ptsd being triggered.

After I got here, in about 4 months, I saw him a total of 4 times. He kept me at a complete distance. And I did nothing but make excuses as to why. And it didn't hit me until later that EVERY single one of the conversations we had over the phone, he was drinking; beer, wine...whatever. I knew that drinking was something that they did to often cope with symptoms. But I didn't consider him an alcoholic.
Then one night he had a car accident, of course I was the first person he called, in tears devistated. And finally in that night he admitted he was an alcoholic. He wanted to stop. And for the first time he asked me to be there for him. I thought it was some break through....and looking back, that night I was an enabler.
He asked me to stay with him that night, so I did. I jumped at the chance to finally spend time with him, he asked me to throw away the beer in his house, I did. He talked about rehab.....
"things happened"..just like on your vacation

Then the next week, all of a sudden his ex wife appears back in his life on facebook. immediately I felt sick. I knew. And he of course got defensive telling me that he has to forgive her, he doesn't want her back, he doesn't love her but it's healthy for him to forgive her.
All lies. And I could tell. The things she was saying was right there for everyone to read. And he still denied it.
Then he tells me that I should "keep my options open"....I was devistated that he would even say it. But I was more worried about HIS pain, than my own. His pain from the war, his life everything. So I didn't make an issue out of it. So many red flags, and I ignored them all.
And then all of a sudden came the talks about drinking, and all of a sudden he's not an alcoholic, he just needs to control his drinking....and it was fine because he exercised, and drank a lot of water, and cut out wine and was just drinking beer, or cut out beer and was just drinking wine. On and on.... He comes across as one of the most intelligent men I have ever known, so to hear him come out with these excuses I just couldn't believe. But he knew I did not support it.

Then finally it came, a month later, he tells me he's going to see his ex, he's still in love with her, and can't live without her.
I tried so hard to be the bigger person and say I just want you to be happy. At the time I was still so blinded because he was still speaking to me, acting as if he cared so much about me as a friend.....

But being the bigger person did nothing but bottle my emotions which came out later irrationally, and in pain and hurt, and I am still recovering.
His ex wife is now living with him here, and I recently saw pics of them together and lost it.
He treated me SO horribly in our relationship/friendship. And I put all of MY needs aside to address his, to be there for him, to be patient. .....and as soon as he was certain his ex was coming back to him, he threw me to the wolves. (maybe dramatic, but certainly how it feels)

I fell in love with a dream that I created. He is NOT that kind, honest man that I thought he was. He knew the most personal things about me, and he used me as an emotional blanket simply to use to comfort himself. But he was NEVER there for me. The friendship was so onesided, and full of lies. Lies that he will never admit to, but I know.

I KNOW exactly how you feel. And I cry because I miss him too. But girl, I come here every day, and read, and learn about drinking, and what it does....and I am trying to focus on that. I care for him deeply, but I will not care so much for someone any longer that has NO concern for me or my feelings.
The one thing I have loved here, is that I realized that I needed to stop asking what he was feeling, doing, does he care (if he cared he would be here....but he's not, he chose to go back to his drinking buddy....and I say that because he told me that she knows what it's like to be with him, and she accepts that. He's 100% comfortable with her). I think they have love, but it is a twisted love.
I needed to start focusing on me and asking myself "Why do I want someone who treats me like this?" "What really attracts me to him?"....
Asking questions about my behavior instead of his. It has actually made me feel a little better. And starting to have a lot of faith in a HP.

I've rambled....sorry! I get losy in thought, and this is a major therapy for me, it has been the hardest time of my life the last year. And i'm totally a NEWBIE here. But I understand loss, loneliness and the feelings that go with that. And I have seen and felt the selfishness that goes along with someone who decides that he needs to drink...a lot.
I can't offer what it is REALLY like to be with an alcoholic. So many women here can, and they are an inspiration.

[wanting]

I'm confused by the title. Why are you the "other woman"? I about died when I clicked on your thread and saw you are in Portland. I thought you were someone I know.

OK, aside from that, I know just how you feel, except that I married and had kids with the person and so it is maybe 1000 times harder to accept the situation. Plus, he left me for my "friend." I'm just pointing that out to let you know that you are strong and smart and you got out before things got too out of control. I too find myself wondering if he remembers this, or remembers that. I just got a series of emails from my "friend" that he left me for, telling me how I was so horrible to him and all of these lies that he's told her about me. It has put me right back in a place of sad vulnerability. But, like everyone will tell you here, it does no good to wonder if he remembers the truth. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. The real problem is - why did I start this relationship and why did I continue it? What is it about me that attracted him (and the parade of losers before him)? How can I be sure that this won't happen again? And what did I contribute to the situation?

[reata]

It is unbelievable how unique the alcoholic can think they are but their actions and the stories told by the people who love them are all the same.
After 23 years of trying to love and have some sort of normal marriage & family I have removed myself and my daughter. I miss my home and the pain is like a huge wave that just surges over me countless times today.
My daughter is relieved to be out and my family & friends support us in this decision but it doesn't make it any easier.
I hit bottom about 9 months ago when I found out he was having an affair off and on for the last couple years -- added to all the other lies he has conspired to keep the whiskey in his life.
After years of his angry, selfish ways I still remember and sometimes get a glimmer of the person he could be yet he remains faithful and true to his addiction.
In fact just tonight it has been less than 12 hours and he has told me that, "He just can't do alone and that this separation thing just isn't going to work for him. He has needs." My heart is breaking, my life feels like it is upside down & spinning wildly and I feel so damn alone as well. It is so hard for me to see how little I mean to him after all these years (we started dating at 15 yrs. old) It just hurts right to my core.

Thanks for listening.

[TakingCharge999]

Hello! I am you, only a year later.

I know the hurt, the pain and the confusion.

It gets better. If you stick around you will learn about the many different faces of alcoholism. Here we come from many walks of life and have been touched by alcoholics in different ways. But we all agree in that:

We are not responsible for someone else.
We did not cause them to drink.
We cannot cure them or help them. They need to help themselves.
We cannot control them. We do not know when or if ever they will get better. And for the ones that are trying, we do not know if it will last.
There was no way to foresee the future or prevent what happened.

Once these ideas start sinking in, once you know we know how you feel... you will realize your situation is not unique, and there are ways to feel better again. Even better than how you have felt in the past.

Mourning an alcoholic is very complex. After a year with a bf he started abusing verbally, the next day he cried all day, promised it would not happen again and yes a few days later it was the same scene.

You are right. He sensed it was either you or the drink. And he chose the drink.

Although it sucks for a while, it is a finite pain and it will subside... you deserve someone who is there 100%. Your future children deserve a real father. You deserve joy.

In therapy I realized I was looking for my father in my partners. IF only I was thin, fun, intelligent, creative enough for them to stay. When I started accepting my father and realizing he loves me in the best way he knows, my romantic ideas changed and "coincidentally" someone special came in my life.

I hated to hear this then, but its true, there are GREAT men out there. Just yesterday a male friend told me "respect is binary, either someone respects you, or they don't. There are NO grays".

I clang for some crumbs of affection and now I got someone 100% who WOULD NOT EVEN DREAM about hurting me in that way. Those are the people I need around, because everyone who I let in my world will influence my destiny. And I want it to be bright. Not the hell someone else brought.

The pain I felt was not even mine. I was present 100%. My feelings were real. I was always honest. I was willing to work things out and meet him halfway. But if that meant becoming a doormat or a fellow binger, compromising my values and beliefs, then no thanks.

No one will ever know if he remembers you or not. But it does not matter. It only matters what you remember, and what you do not remember. What you learn and what you can identify as negative to you and disposable material. What you take out of this, your strength, is what matters.

Many times I feel bad once again, because I get tons of triggers, but many times I focus once again in my own life and start to be grateful a madman went out of my life before anything really terrible happened. I could have been killed by his reckless driving. I could have given my future children, hell and an absent abusive father.

After a very lonely year I start hearing from people and I know many want me to be happy. Can you remember all the people that LOVE YOU from day 0 and have NEVER hurt you? those people and us in SR are your support. We all root for you and your happiness. Its a process but in the end it all starts making sense.

I like myself much more now because I realize I am very strong, and know better what Iwant. And I am going for it. And I know now, who my friends are and who are a waste of time and breathe.

Midnight is where the day begins as the U2 song says. Welcome and I hope you and all the recent posters keep sharing. This is tough and it is tougher faced alone. In group, you can find healing, compassion and hope.

HUGS!

[intheknow]

Originally Posted by reata

It is unbelievable how unique the alcoholic can think they are but their actions and the stories told by the people who love them are all the same.

After 23 years of trying to love and have some sort of normal marriage & family I have removed myself and my daughter. I miss my home and the pain is like a huge wave that just surges over me countless times today.

My daughter is relieved to be out and my family & friends support us in this decision but it doesn't make it any easier.

I hit bottom about 9 months ago when I found out he was having an affair off and on for the last couple years -- added to all the other lies he has conspired to keep the whiskey in his life.

After years of his angry, selfish ways I still remember and sometimes get a glimmer of the person he could be yet he remains faithful and true to his addiction.

In fact just tonight it has been less than 12 hours and he has told me that, "He just can't do alone and that this separation thing just isn't going to work for him. He has needs." My heart is breaking, my life feels like it is upside down & spinning wildly and I feel so damn alone as well. It is so hard for me to see how little I mean to him after all these years (we started dating at 15 yrs. old) It just hurts right to my core.

Thanks for listening.

This is a great post! It is amazing the lengths they will go to keep the whiskey in their life, and how this bottle becomes their love. This bottle fuels their passion, makes them more a man, gives them confidence and makes them so much more handsome.

This bottle takes over and allows them to truly become someone else. The hard truth is that while they see all of the above, we see the lonely man, the insecure man, the man struggling to hold on to all of the things he has worked so hard for. We see the once handsome man become ugly, the once charming man become cruel, the passionate man unable to incite any desire in us. And we stand back and wonder what is happening, and why it is happening.

Sometimes this realization comes quickly, but for many of us it comes after a long period of time - when we see that our lives are truly being wasted and twenty years or more has come and gone.

And we ask, again and again, why? Why would they trade they trade their family for an empty bottle? Why is it worth losing money, the family home, the cars and everything we have worked so hard to gain?

[naive]

this is for reata-

mine says he has needs to. that the separation thing drives him to drink and womanize, because a man has needs.

i just tell him that there are no woman in jail or in a hospital bed or in the cemetary, which is where he is headed.

glad you got out sister. stay strong. notice how your daughter is relieved to be away and follow her lead.

the pain goes away. have it, feel it and it will dissolve soon as your new life starts to emerge from the ashes.

naive

[intheknow]

Mine says he has needs, too and I need to hurry up and make a decision about him being in my life.

Quack, quack, quack. I am not allowing him to manipulate my actions any more.

I told him if he has such needs and cannot wait for me, then march on.

[grrl77]

Thanks guys, for your kind and insightful words. I didn't even realize people had posted - I thought I'd get an e-mail notification or something! I just happened to check back today, and eight posts! Wow!

I've gone to Al-Anon meetings, and found them to be really helpful. I'd stopped going, because for awhile, G and I weren't talking at all. I'd gone out there this last July, and things were pretty fun. Yeah, stuff happened that probably shouldn't have, yeah it was a bit awkward, but the truth is, we had a pretty good time. We laughed a lot. Danced around to music. We went to concerts, took walks, went and saw the circus together. It was a great time, and then the last night I was there? He picked a fight with me over bottled water. Not even kidding. He'd been drinking, which is a nightly thing, and I was sitting there watching tv, he was at his computer, and he comes over, sits next to me, and busts in on me about why did I go down to get bottled water, when he's got perfectly good water in his apartment. I thought he was joking at first. I had no idea where this came from. And when I asked him why he was being this way, on my last night there, he didn't even have an answer. He just sat there and looked at me.

He wound up getting ahold of me a few nights ago, where we talked on instant messenger for three hours. It was a strange conversation - we laughed a lot, I wound up crying, a lot of strange things were said - him admitting he apparently still had feelings for me up until July when I went out there, then apparently they "magically disappeared." Funny, that. Because before, he wanted me to know that we broke up just due to differences, incompatibilities, no fault of anyone. I never believed that at all - he just didn't want to quit drinking.

I think when I look at my situation, there's a coupole things going on. The first is that I try to have rational conversations with someone who's inebriated. I guess I just got used to this, as dumb as it sounds, because he was drunk every night anyway. When else was I going to get to talk to him? It's not that I settled, I just... got lazy, I guess. Got used to it.

The second is that I fell in love with this amazing dude I know him to be when he's sober. One of the reasons I fell in love with him is his ability to make sense of things. He's got this unusual knack to throw himself outside of a situation - even his own - and peer in on it with fresh eyes. He says things like, "I'm the drunk, you need to run from me, but you refuse." "You'll be okay, you don't need my problems." "I'm not of use to you at all, save casual fun conversation." It pisses me off because he's right - on the same hand, I sit here and think, dude, if you can see that? Why the hell are you still drinking? Why do you not care enough to save yourself/us? You know what I mean?

I'm not a desperate woman, but maybe I've been a little blind. Some people say I need to write a big e-mail and bust out my feelings for him, but tell him why I can't do this anymore, and leave it in God's hands. The thought of writing an e-mail like that makes me sick to my stomach. I don't know how many times the thought of that today has made me cry in my damn cube at work. :P

I just miss him. I miss what we had. He's a good man, deep down, but I'm just seeing him less and less. I have these terrible fears (his family lives far away, and he doesnt have any good friends around at all, just coworkers, so. basically no one.) that he's going to just not show up for work for a few days and they're going to find him in his tiny 400 sq foot apartment with his cat, dead. It scares me to death. He's 31 years old, killing two bottles of wine a night, playing video games. He drinks alone. He doesn't want anyone close to him, emotionally. He shoves everyone away. It feels like such a catch 22. Either I walk, and he has no one, or I stay - but at arm's length - just so a door's open in case he needs me, for real.

Gah. Am I talking crazy?

[ANEWAUGUST]

You aren't talking crazy.

You are just talking about trying to make sense of a relationship with an active alcoholic.

I am an alcoholic, and when I was actively drinking, my mind would swirl in a million different directions. I was this charming, wonderful, wife, saying, doing all the right things, I applied all the same to being a Mom, daughter, sister, friend, employee. I was a people pleasing alkie.

The only problem is, that it wasn't real. I was drinking so I could try to be all those perfect people I thought I had to be. Underneath it all though, I was lying, and I was afraid. Afraid of those very people finding out that I wasn't that great., that perfect.

The further into my drinking, the more this disease took its toll. The alcohol didn't work anymore. I couldn't be that perfect people pleaser. I was scared, so, I would pick fights
or do anything to protect my drinking.

An active alcoholic isn't capable of a real, honest relationship...just the illusion of one.

You are sad, and missing that illusion that was part of your life.

To help yourself heal, please keep attending Al-Anon, maybe read some of Melodie Beatties books about co-dependency, and try to refrain from having contact with him. As he isn't even thinking about recovery, this sick man, will only have sick relationships.

You deserve much more...

[Gypsy Feet]

you should be more worried about what you need honey<3

I miss the man I married. He was a kind and gentle man. He belongs to his alcoholism now, and I hold no door open for him to get help from me, because that is the same door I would be holding open for me to get hurt.

I wish him well. I would be thrilled to find, 5 years from now, he was sober and remarried, living a good life. As for me, I am already living that good life. When I closed the door on my life with him for good, the door to an amazing new life opened.

[ICantHeCan]

Grrl -- don't know if you have read the BB much but take a look at "The Doctor's Opinion" and *uggghhhhh* the chapter "To the Wives." What you need to keep in mind is that he (1) is a sick man (2) who may never get well.

On the other hand, you both have a Higher Power -- just depends on how you chose to use your HP and if he ever gets to a place to find his HP.

Only time will tell... I try not to look too far down the road anymore -- it gets me in trouble -- but I heard this woman share at an AA meeting a few weeks ago. She's been sober 28 years and has been married to the man she divorced 26 years ago for 3 years now. My point is that there's miracles upon miracles in these programs -- WE just need to do our part by getting out of HP's way and work our programs ("...they will materialize if we work for them").* What may materialize for you will be something beyond your wildest dreams even though you might not be able to see or feel that right now.

*- Alcoholics Anonymous, 1st Edition

[Bernadette]

Hiya grrl77!
Either I walk, and he has no one, or I stay - but at arm's length - just so a door's open in case he needs me, for real.

If you walk and he has no one that's because of his choices, that's his life and I found I had to let people in my life have the lives they choose. I believe I have that right, so I have to allow people the dignity of their own choices and their own lives - however much I disagree with them or see them as making poor sad choices.

In case he needs you...for what? If he needs help figuring out how to get sober then you will be of little use to him unless you are a recovered alcoholic yourself. I am simply not that powerful that I can "help" someone get sober! Just like I can't make anyone drink, I cannot get them sober. Alcoholism is a formidable foe - it is much, much, much bigger than me and as we see over and over on these boards much much bigger than most of the people trapped in its devices.

The thing it took me longer to figure out is that my codependent tendencies are a formidable foe also. All my urges to help, to figure out their problems, why do they drink, why did they say that, etc., keep me from facing my own problems and making changes in the only person I have the power to change: Me!

I think when I look at my situation, there's a coupole things going on. The first is that I try to have rational conversations with someone who's inebriated....It's not that I settled, I just... got lazy, I guess. Got used to it.

I don't know if its laziness (I had a therapist who told me laziness=fear!) or settling or what you want to call it but you accepted this as intimate valid conversation and the reality is there is no such thing when a person is drunk. The intimacy is fake, the feelings revealed can't be trusted, the whole thing just enables the alcoholic and enfeebles the non-alkie partner.

The second is that I fell in love with this amazing dude I know him to be when he's sober.
We all love our alcoholics, but if I am only loving the part that is sober then I have not yet accepted that they are an alcoholic, and I am, to my own peril, underestimating the powerful addiction of alcoholism and what it means to who this person is, and who they will become. I cannot pick and choose the traits in a person - particularly in an intimate partner. I try to see people as whole - 100% - can I accept this person as he/she is today? Because this is who they are!

He's got this unusual knack to throw himself outside of a situation - even his own - and peer in on it with fresh eyes. He says things like, "I'm the drunk, you need to run from me, but you refuse." "You'll be okay, you don't need my problems."

As far as his "I'm no good, run from me," etc. speech. That is like the chum for us codies!! It just makes all the protestations jump right out of us - it makes us see them as having some kind of genuine self-reflection - it makes us want to prove them wrong -- "No, no, you are worthy, you are loveable, etc."

It is part of the CLASSIC dance of the alcoholic/codependent relationship. It is pure manipulation and usually leads to further enabling by the codie partner. There are many ways to enable - not just the obvious ones like paying for their liquor or their bail money. Taking part in conversations that the alkie uses to justify their drinking, or to have a pity party, or to further some romantic image of themselves, or to be drunk and terribly charming and witty so we all stay in denial about the drinking, anytime we participate in helping them continue their delusions about themselves we are enabling.

I sit here and think, dude, if you can see that? Why the hell are you still drinking? Why do you not care enough to save yourself/us? You know what I mean?

Because he is an alcoholic. And that's just what alcoholics do. Believe it. If I had a nickel for everytime one of my A brothers admitted their problem but didn't change and didn't seek help - I could take us all here on SR to Tahiti for some fun in the sun! And it's not that they don't care it's that they can't care. In the grip of alcoholism all they care about is alcohol. You said it perfectly in your title - his true love is a bottle of French Red Wine!

I have seen some pretty terrific women pass through my A brothers lives - some went away quickly and unscathed...others got caught in the web and really suffered and damaged themselves. Those were the ones who thought they could make a difference - that this time would be different - that maybe all my brother needs is a good woman to stand by him...

Glad you're here. Keep posting. You have found a bunch of people who collectively have seen it all - and can honestly relate to how you are feeling - you're not alone!

peace-
B

[wanting]

Oh, NOW I get it. You're the OW because alcohol is his true love. I feel so stoopid.

[intheknow]

Originally Posted by ANEWAUGUST

You aren't talking crazy.

You are just talking about trying to make sense of a relationship with an active alcoholic.

I am an alcoholic, and when I was actively drinking, my mind would swirl in a million different directions. I was this charming, wonderful, wife, saying, doing all the right things, I applied all the same to being a Mom, daughter, sister, friend, employee. I was a people pleasing alkie.

The only problem is, that it wasn't real. I was drinking so I could try to be all those perfect people I thought I had to be. Underneath it all though, I was lying, and I was afraid. Afraid of those very people finding out that I wasn't that great., that perfect.

The further into my drinking, the more this disease took its toll. The alcohol didn't work anymore. I couldn't be that perfect people pleaser. I was scared, so, I would pick fights
or do anything to protect my drinking.

An active alcoholic isn't capable of a real, honest relationship...just the illusion of one.

You are sad, and missing that illusion that was part of your life.

To help yourself heal, please keep attending Al-Anon, maybe read some of Melodie Beatties books about co-dependency, and try to refrain from having contact with him. As he isn't even thinking about recovery, this sick man, will only have sick relationships.

You deserve much more...

This is my life! This describes my RAH to a tee. We just talked about this last nite - how if he drank when I was not around, he generally made sure he did it when he was alone so I would not find out or be able to monitor it in any way.

So what happens when they are recovering? Are they capable of a healthy relationship then?

I still get the feeling I need to run like hell. I was trying to take my time to see what would happen in our relationship, but there are too many things I question and no trust to be found in my heart.

[rubycanoe]

Originally Posted by wanting

Oh, NOW I get it. You're the OW because alcohol is his true love. I feel so stoopid.

Don't feel bad!! It took me a long time too, it must be a bottle of french red wine? lol

[Threshold]

What happened to you JUST happened to me during this past year. I fell in love with a great guy, a truly good man. Mine is actually in recovery (though in hindsight...) He did the one step closer, one and a half steps back with me. Except for minor personal details, my story is YOUR story...with one twist. I am an addict as well. I began recovery in the Spring, and meant it with all my heart, but kept relapsing (all the while involved in a confusing relationship with him)

I thought that he had recovery all together. Three and a half years clean and sober and immersed several hours a day in helping others recover. I was in awe of his success. But there were some things about him I just couldn't figure out...

I thought it was me.

Now, two months after he...just like your guy, found some totally ridiculous reason to push away the deep respectful love I offered (or so I congratulated myself) the light finally struck me.

I kept relapsing because I never really got clean. My relationship with him was just another way I was using. As long as I compulsively kept throwing myself against the electric fence that was our relationship (everytime we got intimate and up close I got a huge painful shock) I couldn't get clean in the other areas of my life. And I justified my own behavior by saying I was in love. I WAS in love, but that is no excuse for the self destructive behavior I engaged in over and over in the relationship. I was hooked, I used, I got hurt, I said never again, I justified doing it again because he was a good, troubled man and I loved him, I ended up hurt and using and "hung over" again. Emotionally hung over.

Yesterday...is when I realized all this. Just yesterday. This was a monumental discovery for me, because now I believe I CAN truly get clean and sober, since I've identified a critical area in my life where I was "using", romantic/sexual relationships. Now I own it, accept it and can apply the steps toward it...a HUGE discovery, one that may very well save my life.

So, in essence I loved the man you described...but I also AM the person you love. I am an addict as well. I am a good hearted woman, generous, smart, funny, but....I am an addict, out of control, desperate, who is adept at covering my tracks so I can continue to use. JUST like my man is.

Here's a little interesting appendix to my story. I am married. The man I was involved with was an affair. He knew I was married. What he didn't tell me is that HE has a girlfriend of over two years that he spends every other weekend with in another city. Oh, and he never mentioned he was chasing other side action at the place we both work as well...That didn't come up.

He may or may not be clean from H, as he claims. I don't know, but it's clear he is still using...just like I was. Using relationships, just like I was.

I pledge no new relationships for two years. No matter what. I may or may not be able to work out my marriage, we have been talking seperation for some time. But either way, no new relationships for me until I have done a ton of my own work, on myself and really have a clue if I've addressed my issues and am working my recovery in ALL areas of my life.

The man I was involved with ate, drank and slept the 12 steps with a dedication I've never seen in anyone...but he, after nearly 4 years in recovery still, clearly has a blind spot and is addicted to some aspect of these sorts of relationships. Just like me.

And I own that there may be 100 other things and areas in which I am still hanging on to using...and I hope that in recovery I will confront them, so they can be addressed. The insight I had yesterday into my behavior was a huge wake up call for me. I admit that I am blind to my own nature, and seek to have it exposed to myself.

I think AlAnon is a super place for you. As others have said, find out why YOU are drawn to this type of person, and that type of relationship, or at least why you were willing to deal with the garbage for what little good there was in it. Neither you nor I can know why they acted as they did. But we can address our behavior and motivations.

I wrote, just the other day in my blog, that I wonder if he ever thinks of me, remembers with fondness our sweet times together...etc. etc.

Today I realize that it doesn't matter, what matters is that I think of me, and do the work to understand my own behavior, so I don't get involved in that sort of relationship again...as either style of player.

I was both a user and a usee, in unhealthy ways.

All the energy I have must go into MY recovery. I too sat and worried about him...was he using again, etc...a good way to keep myself from focusing on MY issues. But I can do nothing about his issues, I can address my own.

I'm glad you found this place. Glad I found this place. And thank you for your post...reading other people's experieces on both sides of these relationships is critical to me now.

[ANEWAUGUST]

intheknow...

I am currently sober, after relapsing this year. I had 5+ years before this year when I convinced myself I could drink socially again. That was the disease whispering in my ear, drawing me back. It didn't take long for my body and mind to pick up where it left off.
I am attending AA meetings, I have a sponsor, and I have completely surrended to the acceptance that I am an alcoholic.

My husband, family and friends have supported me thru my recovery. I think it is only because they had some years of witnessing my sobriety, and the break from my insanity that they have been so supportive, and believe I can live sober.

What made me realize I needed to stop again?

My 15 year old daughter witnessed my stupidity. I asked her to tell me exactly how that made her feel. She told me. My husband also looked at me, and although his voice was firm, he didn't yell, and told me he didn't have to put up with this much longer. I know he didn't have to put up with it at all. My daughter really didn't witness how bad my drinking got before I was sober before. This time, she knew darn well what was going on., and expressed it to me.

Everyone is different and everyone needs to decide what they can, and cannot live with in their relationships. I do know that nothing changes, if nothing changes. If the addict/alcoholic has no desire to stop drinking/using, and/or no plan for their recovery,
then, the question is what you can live with.

I hope some of this helps...

[grrl77]

Thanks guys, for the insightful words. Makes a lot of sense, and I've definitely got a lot to think about. It's sort of like being slapped in the face with the ugly hard truth, and having to forego everything you may have thought was the real deal. It's hard to swallow.

I feel a mixture of emotions. Some of the things going through my head right now, are things like, was our entire relationship a sham? Did he ever feel for me what I felt for him? Was it even possible? I'd like to think there was *something* to it. I remember when he came out here last summer, we went camping for a week. He was sober the whole week, which was huge for him, considering he's drunk every night. I was really proud of him, and we had an amazing time. He seemed much more clear, a little more quiet, still sweet and more the guy that I fell in love with. Of course, it didn't last long. The moment he left here, he was back to old habits, but I just held on to what I knew to be the core of him - the not so perfect G, the G that's just like everyone else, underneath it all.

G and I got into a discussion the other night. We were chatting online, and something he said was so irrational - when I came there in July, we were going to go to a jazz show. I had told him about this dress that I'd bought for this show - just your standard black, pretty dress - girls, you know! The standard 'little black dress' that every woman owns, right? So I show up, we hug, it was great seeing him after a year. I throw this dress on, and I look smokin', right? *To this day* - and this happened back in July, he cannot get over that dress - but it's not in the way that you'd think. He went off about how I always talk about being a laid back, practical girl. You know, jeans and tshirt kind of girl, and here I was, decked out. He put it, "Wildly overdressed." I told him I didn't know any man that would actually *complain* of a pretty girl in a smokin' dress being in their presence! He said he'd been trying to create distance, as to not succumb to sex and being a drunk. I ... guess I'm supposed to tell him I'm sorry for ... looking so hot? I guess? Lol. I told him I looked incredible, and if he couldn't handle that, it certainly wasn't my problem. It was his. All this is just a side note, mind you - it just makes me laugh that to this day - and he says his feelings for me went away when he saw me in July (they supposedly were gone way before that, which was BS, and I know they're not gone now). See, and it's craziness like this, that makes me go, wtf, J. What are you doing, sister? I wouldn't put up with this from any girlfriend, any friend - I'd tell them to eff off. But then I say things in my head, like, "but you know the real G - this guy you're talking to right now, is just drunk. You've experienced who he *really* is, deep down, and tomorrow, he won't even remember this, so it's not real. He's sick." I'm sure that thought process isn't any different, but I guess the difference is, I'm neglecting myself, here. I mean, that's just it, right? If a girlfriend of mine was in G's position, would I put up with it? No, I'd tell her to go get some help, and that I love her and would always be here for her but I cannot help her through this, and to contact me once she's decided to get sober. So. Really. What's the difference, aside from the fact I'm in love with him? (Sorry, just thinking outloud.)

I'd thought about talking to his parents. I guess what scares me, is that everyone that's close to him live far away. Just to give you some background - his entire family is made up of very intelligent people who have gone on to acheive crazy degrees with many letters behind their last names - scientists, biochemists, etc. Younger brother just recently graduated from MIT and has a wife and a baby on the way. G got kicked out of school, doesn't have a college degree, and works in a very good job, but it's nothing like his family. All in all, if one were to peer in on G's family w/ G in it, G appears to be the black sheep, and I think it bothers him a lot. He'll talk about how tight he is with his family - and I think they love him and include him in things, obviously - but I wonder how much they really know about his problem, as they're all far away and kind of removed. He sees them maybe once every six months, for a few days at a time. We've talked a bit about that - at one point, he told me that his mom knew he drank too much, but that's about it. Another time, he said it's "killing his mother from the inside out." I'd talked to an alcoholic counselor, and he advised that if I didn't have a relationship with his family, he would advise against talking to them - because it all comes down to the same thing - he's got to want to stop. They can't make him, just like I can't. And, by telling them, it might just make him feel even more alienated, if they did confront him. That's not what I want. On the other hand, I try to put myself in that perspective of if I was a mother. I'd like to think I'd have that gut instinct of there being something wrong with my kid. But I'd also like to think if someone that truly loved my son knew something that I might not, I'd pray to God someone would tell me. So, it leaves me feeling conflicted.

It bothers G that he doesn't excel at things like his folks do. He looks at his family to be very smart, very this, very that - and I notice he often brags about their successes as his own, if that makes sense. He'll carry on about how his family is this and that and how his brother did this and that, and it's like... but.. that's your brother. That's your dad. What about YOU? He feels inadequate. He told me the other day, "the only thing i'm good at is programming." As if that's not enough. I'm like "I'm good at photography. Most people excel at *something*." He's NORMAL, you know? And I think he has a problem with that.

Hmm. So much to think about.

[ANEWAUGUST]

What is to be gained by talking to his family?

Will it validate how you see him?

Will it help you decide to continue your "relationship" with him?

I would examine my motives before involving others in this drama.

He isn't in recovery, and truly, from what I have read isn't interested in recovery.

So, the question is, what are you doing for yourself?

[Learn2Live]

What I'm experiencing and perceiving right now related to this very issue I try to sum up as simply as I can. That isn't it so very strange how two people can occupy and share the same space, time and experiences together and yet have such polar opposite realities?

The dilemma is figuring out which of the two realities is closest to the truth. With alcoholism and addiction, personal reality becomes further and further away from Truth. At least, that's the way I understand it and we on SR seem to agree about.

At the present time, I am having this very issue with a man who is in such denial of anything remotely resembling what I believe to be reality that I honestly think he must be from another planet. I can only shake my head in wonder.

Coming here to SR helps me to recall that I have seen this "disease" before and that most of you here understand and can validate MY reality and the fact that I think this man is an alien from outer space.

You would think that after doing this so many times throughout my life, I would completely disinvolve myself immediately upon hearing from a man that he spent 9 years actively using heroin. Such is the greatest curiosity: My OWN behavior and refusal to heed my own wisdom and learning.

[Threshold]

I too keep asking myself, about my ex boyfriend...did he EVER really have feelings for me...did he feel what I felt, etc. etc. etc...

But I see for my own recovery, it's one more thing I need to let go of, one more thing I can't and couldn't ever control. How he understood things and how he felt are HIS issues, not mine and I can continue to drive myself crazy over them or surrender.

You can't help him by telling his family anything...but I'll bet they could tell YOU a few hair raising stories.

His recovery...or lack thereof, is his issue, not yours. But YOUR recovery (addict or not) is YOUR issue. You can choose to save yourself, and that is something you actually can achieve.

I have said all the same things to myself concerning my ex...even that out of love for him I should do this or that, trying to help him...but those are just lies and justifications I make to myself to stay involved when there is nothing more to be gained by either of us. I dress my own compulsion up as caring and compassion. I assign noble motivations to my codependency.

Friend, what you have and are experiencing hurts like heck, but the only way to end that is to remove yourself from the situation and don't go there again. The only one who can remove HIM from his dilemma is himself.

just like you are wondering why he continues to make choices that result in pain and misery, why he keeps using when it gets him no where...read your own posts as an outsider sees them...and wonder why a wonderful woman like you keeps doing the same thing that results in pain and chaos in your life.

just something to think about.

[megan09]

There's a saying in recovery 'Keep doing what you're doing, and you'll keep getting what you're getting'. This is so true. If the addict doesn't want to stop then NOTHING you do or say to yourself, him or anyone else will make a difference. Your life will be hell if you don't heed the advice and experience of people on this forum. It is not your business to inform his parents of anything; he won't thank you and probably they won't either. As a recovering alcoholic myself, I can tell you that giving up drink is hard enough initially when you really desperately want to do it, so it never works if someone isn't willing to go to any lengths for sobriety for THEMSELVES. I split with my long-term partner over a year ago because he continued to abuse drink and he didn't want to stop. I found it harder to put a person down than I did to put the drink down, if that makes sense to you. It is very painful, but it will pass. Make a good life for yourself withouth the complication and damage of alcoholism. Take care.