help--Need some advice!

[honoryourself]

So my AH had been behaving really well, was acting very kind, had cut way back on drinking though didn't stop, and went to a therapy session (on his own). We got in an argument over the fact that my friends didn't invite him along one evening to do something and he won't let it go. He keeps bringing it up and telling me how awful I am and how I"m the "meanest person alive". The insults are really getting comical lately.

Anyway, he threw a fit this weekend and called me mean and a b**ch and all this for literally having done nothing. I went out with friends for halloween as he screamed at me and told me if I didn't come home he was leaving and he was going to buy a bottle of liquor (he's only had beer and wine for about a month now) and he was going to get drunk. I ended up taking the dog w/ me and going out for halloween at my friend's and staying the night there.

Because of the arguments and serious need to see if our relationship is worth having, we had set up a joint therapy session with someone that I Have seen on a few occassions myself, and he went to ONCE himself. I believe he admitted to this therapist / took a test that showed that he was an alcoholic. He didn't come out and tell me as such, this is "unsaid" information, if you know what I mean. Basically I haven't asked him to label himself or called him an alcoholic or anything, I was hoping we'd get some therapy sessions in and start communicating before bringing out any big guns.

Anyway, I got home min the morning an hr before our therapy and he was livid, screaming about how I didn't come home, I was a bad wife for not telling him I was staying out, how he didn't believe I stayed at a friend's house (I told him I was taking the dog since he said he was going out to get drunk and wouldnt be home in the morning. He knew where I was going and I said I would probably stay if I was drinking, but his point is that I didn't call him specifically to tell him I was staying.. which would be somewhat valid if he wasn't a screeching psycho as I was leaving, calling me names etc.).

Anyway he accused me of all sorts of awful things, saying how awful of a person I was etc. I said why don't we work this out in our session. Well obviously he wasn't going to go to therapy. I had "blown it" and he went down a path of you screwed this up, it's your fault I'm not going, look what YOU did.
I swear, I see alcohols progression. The ridiculousness of his words and actions are really scary. It's creepy.

Anyway, he refused to go, I asked him to attend with me and was hoping he would, nope.. I went anyway. I got home and he had been drinking whiskey and was sleeping / watching tv / being an a$$hole.

My parents were coming into town and were supposed to stay with us that night and he ensured he didn't pick up any of his mess and told me how irresponsible I was for not cleaning the whole house prior to going out last night, and intentionally left a trail of his junk everywhere around the house. I just told them that we were having problems and they would need to stay at my sister's house.

He continued to drink whiskey, pretty much our mortal enemy and his best friend all in one. I got home from my visit with family and he has gone though most of one bottle. I say one because the whiskey he buys is $13 and I saw the $26 charge on our bank account. So I'm sure there's something else he's drinking or drank last night. Doesn't matter..

When I looked at our bank account there was a $160 withdrawal from our checking account. We are pretty much negative in money, spending loan money my parents gave us for a business venture of his. He is now working and apparently got his first paycheck on fri or sat, but 'left it at work' by accident. He said this benignly but I would not be surprised if he owed someone some of that money, since he's been hanging out with drinking buddies from his new job a lot and hadn't been spending much. I suppose it's possible they loaned him cash until his paycheck.

We have a house together that we bought 1 year ago, several very very high credit cards (talking like 30k in cc debt), 2 car payments that are not even close to being paid off (both bought in the past 2 yrs), plus owe nearly 20k to my parents now. I feel like I could just throw up and die looking at the ridiculousness of the situation. I was always so responsible.. I always had savings.. Ug.

I asked my husband tonight if he'd taken $160 out of the atm this weekend, he said yes. THere were other charges on the card too for like cigarettes and booze and fast food, so he obviously either spent all the cash right away or was squirreling it away.
He decided to play games and tell me I didn't deserve to know, saying something about how I had kept full information from him and made him suffer and he wanted to teach me the same thing. He told me I could stew on it and worry about it and he would enjoy doing so. I just walked away, he's enjoying that I wanted to know where he spent it or if he spent it. I'm sure it wasn't on something good, that's for sure.

Anyway, I'm scared, I have been here before, once he got wasted and blew 250 in one weekend on cabs and going out etc etc. It's not a FREQUENT pattern but it has happened a few times throughout our relationship. I'm just catching on a little slow..
I know I need to separate financially. I think I'm scared because I want his paycheck. I'm scared because I am afraid that doing something like taking all the money out tomorrow morning and putting it in a new account is like 'sealing the deal'... If I do that, then the war may be on for good. I mean, I guess I was hoping to hang out for a couple months and hopefully use his paychecks to help offset our debts.. and if he's spending $160 each weekend, well he's still making more than that.. I don't know. I just feel so angry that I am trapped financially.
I cannot afford all our bills on my own. I am afraid that if I go this route and close it out, he will retaliate by destroying something, making things awful, etc. If I do one thing, then will I have to hurry and call all my credit card companies and try to lock them down? Will I have to hide the car titles and all my important documents? Will I have to resign myself to living in a war zone? I would need to sell the house, and I don't know if I can get what we paid for it. I mean we only bought a year ago, we'd have nothing to offer for closing assistance or real estate fees or anything.. not one dime. I don't even think AH would agree to sell if he is in 'react and defend' mode. Should I wait until he's sober in a couple days to do something? I am really pretty ready to end this marriage. I thought it could work if he was willing to do all the things he had been doing but he hasn't made any real changes in himself. It was all a show I guess.

UGH I hate this, I Just want to live my life! But today, what do I do? I don't like my choices or prospects. Neither waiting nor 'running with the money' feels safe.

[Pelican]

breathe, honey, breathe

Long deep inhale
Slow exhale

repeat

There was a lot of awfulizing at the end of your post. I'm exhausted for you.

You don't want to stay in your front row seat to his drama, but you don't want to take steps to give up your seat. Why?

I'm going to be honest with you about his paycheck. The more you want it, the harder it will be for you to get it. He finally got paid and you've already asked for his check. He's in control.

The only way you will find out how much he is making may be when your attorney asks for his earnings statement.

I have children to support, I wasn't willing to take anymore chances with what money and credit I had left. I was tired of watching my money(working 2 jobs) go towards his debts and drinking. I cut off all access to my accounts, made sure the bank wouldn't give out any information with out seeing my id, put important papers and valuables into a safe deposit box, and called a lawyer. I'd rather prepare for the worst and pray for the best (thanks Give Love)

[honoryourself]

Thanks.. I guess I need to lace up some running shoes and get moving. I am just so tired from all the stress, I'm scared I won't be able to deal with it all, plus hold down my job and my sanity! If I take him off all my credit accounts, and if we end up divorced, does all that CC debt become mine alone? I mean, it may not even matter. He could just leave the country. He's not a citizen, and there's 7 or so months left before his status turns permanent, based on our marriage. I'm sure the easiest route would be to just f off. I'm not sure what I'm worried about, I'm already screwed. I guess it's just that nagging hope that he could make some $ and contribute before he's gone. He seems to want to, he says he loves working, wants to pay down debts, is doing really well at work, etc.. but I guess it's what he does when he gets paid that really matters.

[Chrysalis123]

What answered all my questions was a visit with a lawyer. I was scared to make the appointment because of fear of the unknown. However, the knowledge I gained helped me prepare for the worst and also relax in knowing that most of the awful-izing I had done was not true. In your case the citizenship question adds a new twist that probably makes the lawyer even more important.

FWIW, In my state assets as well as debts collected during the marriage werre split 50-50.

[Pelican]

I know you're exhausted. The turmoil is wearing you out. When you start to take steps to protect yourself from further financial ruin, you will begin to feel empowered again. We're talking about protecting your earnings from being squandered on his drinking, eating out, cab fees, etc. right?

He says he wants to help get you out of debt, but what do his actions tell you?

[transformyself]

No advice, just hugs and prayers. You can trust yourself and these good people. There is hope, if we take stop doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. And all those others sayings....

[naive]

please pay attention to what he does, and not what he says.

he says: "he wants to pay down the bill"
he does: forgets his check at work?

i bet your hunch that he owed his wages prior to being paid was correct.

mine used to threaten me with drinking. if i upset him he would say he was going out for a drink and would. it was so menacing, knowing i would be facing a drunk, angry man later.

he's playing you. when i was you, i took immediate steps to shut mine down financially and separated my finances. i heard promise after promise that he would contribute, but my reality was that i couldn't keep the roof over our head due to his drinking expenses. i can't believe that i let it go so long.

you'll feel much better once you formulate a plan and execute it.

why not talk to a lawyer?

keep yourself safe please and think thru your plan. i talked mine through here and people thought of things which i might have overlooked.

breathe, think, get input and move forward with all of your alertness. i quit drinking altogether when i was making my move, as the situation was too volatile and i needed all my wits about me.

good luck to you.
naive

[honoryourself]

Thanks everyone.
I guess this is my dilemma THIS morning--DO I drive to the bank at 9 and take it all out of our joint account--the one where our bills come out of that has any money left in it? Or do I wait to talk to a lawyer before making any moves?
Theoretically he could up and grab whatever he wants from that bank account, but I sort of doubt he'd go and take it all, more like a few bucks here and there as he needs it, or a couple hundred on the weekend to be spiteful...
The risk to me is if I take it all out, he'll see, and I"ll immediately be in a war zone where I need to cover all my bases, I think, and risk he does something very detrimental one any of our other joint credit cards or accounts.

Any advice on the IMMEDIATE future? He finished his whiskey last night and is puttering about sick (cold) this morning probably with a hangover. I"m not sure if he's going to work but I think he is showering which is a good sign.
He doesn't ever really miss work, especially Mondays.

[Pelican]

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change
The courage to change the things I can and
The wisdom to know the difference

[LaTeeDa]

I can't tell you what to do, but I will tell you this. I was locked in a power struggle for the last 5 or 6 years of my marriage. I did everything I could think of to get him to change. He would 'cut back' or even stop drinking entirely for periods of time. Once, he even quit for 4 months. Every time he changed because of the threat of losing me, he resented me for it. Each time, the resentment got worse. He had no intention of making any permanent changes, he just wanted me off his back. We were both miserable.

I finally had to give up the idea that I could change him. I had to believe his actions and stop listening to his words. Once I started making decisions based on the evidence instead of my hopes, my life started changing. It was scary, but I wish I had done it sooner. The debt will only continue to pile up, the resentment will continue to pile up, and the fear will continue to pile up. Things will get worse, I promise you. If doing what you have to do to protect yourself seems hard now, imagine how hard it will be a few more years down the road.

L

[honoryourself]

No, I think I am ready to do this. I just don't want to do something rash TODAY that will set off a war I'm not knowledgable enough to fight and makes me more screwed than I am already, if it makes more sense to wait and find a lawyer. I guess that's my fear. For those of you who went through a nasty divorce with financial BS.. did you tread lightly as you sought out the lawyer?

[Still Waters]

I'm absolutely no expert in legalities but I just read about this sort of thing (dealing with my divorce):

There are two thoughts on removing the money from joint accounts. One: better to pay the money back if so ordered by the courts, rather than try and get the money back from your ex-spouse. Two: Judges don't look kindly on spouses who leave the other spouse penniless.

My suggestion is to do nothing until you get legal advice from an actual attorney. Call one NOW.

[naive]

how it ended up with mine, was that it didn't matter if he went to work or not...i never saw any of the money earned.

once i realized this, i stopped cooperating with getting him to work and left him to it.

i think if you are going to empty the accounts, you will have to go and stay somewhere else. game over.

you always have the option of giving your parents some of their money back, and tell him you emptied the account to pay them back. give your parents the cash and tell them what is going on. they might be willing to lend it back to you alone once you are clear of him, if you need it.

open a bank account in your own name and have your own paycheck routed into the new account.

and certainly, get advice from a lawyer!

[Jadmack25]

Tell him that your parents needed to be repaid some of what they had loaned out, so you gave it to them.

Go see a lawyer and at least learn what you can or cannot do to protect yourself.

Then.........rest easy for a few minutes, takes some deep breathes and tell your mind to stop racing at 100 miles an hour.

God bless

[honoryourself]

Thanks everyone. Yesterday online we had a brief conversation during which he continued the insanity..

I asked him point blank, have you thought about this calmly and decided you do not want joint counseling to deal with our issues. He said some quacking stuff about what I needed to do and how I'd obviously already given up and it was my fault he didn't go to our meeting because I was neglecting my responsibilities as a wife and being mistrustful.
I said, answer the question please. If you don't answer this question and continue to insult me and give me excuses and not an answer, I will interpret that as your decision to not work on the marriage.
He said he did want to work on it, but I had to want to do it too and not just keep 'throwing things in his face.' I said, fine. Well you have 2 days. You stood me up at the last appointment. He said he wanted to see the counselor I've been going to that he saw once as well, which I thought was odd because previously he considered her to be biased towards me or something. I said OK. You have two days, Tue/Wed, make an appointment, show up, and if you don't this is absolutely it, we need to talk about our separation. He apparently didn't think I was serious and started quacking. Finally he said just make the appointment, whenever, I'll be there.

I made the appointment for late this afternoon. I called a financial specialist in divorce this morning. He said I needed to talk to an attorney because they could help me more, and gave me a name and number.

I'm at work and I get messages from my AH like, we need to talk about refinancing our house. This is something we've talked about before to save ourselves money, but it was a bit of an odd timing. He said we should talk tonight we need to make a decision. We will save xxx dollars / month. I said, ok. we'll talk tonight. He got upset that I wasn't excited and telling him good job. I said well I'm sorry I'm confused about our finances. He asked why. I said you're playing games with telling me where you're spending all this money over the weekend and you haven't deposited your pay check yet. He responded by saying he spend his cash on outings over the weekend as well as therapy on Monday. He has to be totally lying about the therapy, because he tells me it's none of my business who he's seeing, didn't tell me how much it cost, didn't use insurance, etc.. and therapists without insurance cost a lot of money, this I know. He then told me he refused to 'let me make him feel bad' about his spending because it wasn't fair and he 'did nothing wrong.' On top of the cash he withdrew he also used his bank card and charged up at liquor stores, gas stations, and fast food meals since the time he took out the money. So clearly he spent it all at once probably to pay someone back or who knows buy drugs, I don't even know any more.

Anyway, he told me, Tomorrow I will be opening a separate bank account. I need that. I'm sick of you treating me like a child and investigating my finances. It's mothering and unfair.

I asked him if that's where he'd be putting his paycheck that I haven't seen (this would be a great way for him to hide what he's actually making, right??)
And he said I don't know I haven't decided yet.

My gut and head are saying 'I WANT A DIVORCE.'

I just want to throw up and kill this man. Who does he think he is???? This crazy self righteous irresponsible maniac is telling me that he's done nothing wrong by pilfering away money suspiciously that he hasn't even earned and I have no right to question him on where he's spending it. F dat.

So I'm just like, we'll talk about it in counseling. I don't know what to do. Like, i want to get away from this man, I'm 98% sure, but I have to admit this is all happening SO FAST for me I'm not at 100% yet! I want to be, and my friends are all telling me you deserve better this is emotional abuse, get out get out don't look back... BUT I'm still sad and scared and I am walking around in a daze. I'm trying to be proactive and do what I have to do but my heart feels like it will beat out of my chest.

Less than two hours till the appointment. I feel like it's d-day. I know NOTHING about divorce and just realized much to my disappointment that I can't just get rid of this scum in a week. I mean, I knew it was a process but I was completly unaware that in order to divorce eachother we have to live separately for at least 1 year and have both agreed to do this up front and then agree to divorce at the end. Obviously if he's talking about refinancing and all this bs, no matter how many times he tells me to "call a lawyer" "grow up you child" "I can't live like this anymore" etc., he's not serious. He is just using these words to hurt me like I suppose I had used them before myself, as threats to hope someone changes.

What do I do? What if we go in there and I'm dead seriously ready to dump him and he won't?? What if he continues to emotionally abuse me and I can't afford to get away from him? What if I have to live another year with contact with this man somehow connected to my life while he gets progressively worse and I suffer from it.

Why was I so stupid to think that if it came down to it I could just ship him back to his country of origin with a DEFECTIVE stamp on him. UGH.

I've been trying to take deep breaths all day but I feel like I am walking into a war zone. I'm going to the bank and taking out MOST of the remaining funds just prior to our appointment. I have to be ready for battle, I guess.
Wish me luck..

[nodaybut2day]

honoryourself....

**I am trying to hypnotize youuuuuuu**

***you will become incredibly relaxed and be susceptible to suggestions...***

***Remember Jadmack's words...***
***think of your AH as a duck à l'orange, covered in sauce***
***whatever he says is just quacking***
***quackquackquack goes the duck covered in orange sauce***

**you will now wake up and know that whatever your AH does or says is just wild quacking***



Seriously though, I think you're on the right path. Have you consulted a lawyer yet?

If you go into counselling, tell him you want out and he says no, what can he do to prevent you from leaving? Chain you to the wall? This was my fear as well, when I prepared to leave my XH. I found that as I became more and more decided to leave, my perspective on my husband changed. And now that I have left, I realize that his threats were just big talk and that he is definitely not a man of action, but rather a man of bullsh...

And yes, I did tread very carefully with my XH before finalizing my plans. I moved all money out of the joint account, closed all accounts that needed closing and then..."ran away".

[honoryourself]

I know he's quacking. I don't even really care as much about what he does or why, I just want it to stop affecting me.

If it weren't for our finances I would really just move out. We own a house together and are upside down in it, and our finances are so grossly intermingled and debtous that I can't just separate our accounts and peace out. I will talk to the lawyer tomorrow about things. I just feel trapped by the financial situation that *I* let myself get into.
I'm angry at me for being so naive to think this man was the man of my dreams, and not someone who could walk all over me, lie and be so childish and irresponsible.

[nodaybut2day]

I'm right there with you on the anger front, and I feel like it's a good thing that you're letting yourself be pissed.

Maybe you can jot down point form all the questions you have for your lawyer, to make sure you get all the important stuff addressed when you speak to him tomorrow. I know that helped calm me down a bit before my consultation.

[ANEWAUGUST]

You are in the processing of grieving your dream of what your marriage could be, and
what you might have had at one time...

There are five stages..denial, anger, negotiating, sadness and finally acceptance.

That may be why you are so angry right now...which, is part of the process. You can
move thru this., and eventually, you will get to the stage acceptance to what it really is.

[Bernadette]

My gut and head are saying 'I WANT A DIVORCE.'

Trust your gut! Before it makes you sick and crazy :
I just want to throw up and kill this man.

I vote for your mental health over all else!!

peace-
b

[peaceteach]

I agree 100% with B. TRUST YOUR GUT.