Explain to him?

[JustMeInWI]

I've come to understand/realize that the misery in my 2-year marriage was not because of his alcoholism (which he's been in recovery and not had a drink in over 5 months), but because of his abuse. He was never the type to scream or call me horrible names, nor to hit me. He was subtle, manipulative. My entire life has been run with guilt and manipulation. First by my mom, now by my stbXRAH.

I started to see something was seriously wrong back in November (about 3 months after he'd started AA). He was using everything and everyone in my life against me. I moved out, and about a week later I filed for divorce. Despite multiple times telling him that we both have issues we need to work through on our own before we could even consider reconsiling our marital issues, and telling him we need a break from each other (I've clearly said NO CONTACT until x date multiple times), he ALWAYS crosses that boundary. Always steps over the line.

He insists that we should not be getting a divorce. His excuse for crossing the line is he wants reasons, answers, goals. I've tried to explain, but everything falls out of my head when he and I talk (argue) - he's so good at making me crazy. I get off the phone feeling completely exhausted, confused, and most of the time don't remember what we even talked about. More than once he's told me I am chemically imbalanced and need mental help. But I know that's not true. My doctor sees me and knows I am not crazy.

However, I'm still in love with him. I still want him to want to change. He keeps saying, "I'm a changed man, but you haven't been around to see it" (accusing me that my moving out and filing is what's ruining our chance at a good marriage). He's always been all talk. I have no reason to start trusting his words now when his actions have never proven anything - with the exception that he stopped drinking.

He wants to meet with me tonight. He wants to talk. I'm scared because I don't know if I'll be able to hold my own. But I'm not sure I want to lose him. And I'm not sure I really want this divorce. Some days it seems so clear, then other days I just want to go home and believe it will all be ok.

I've tried to explain that his controlling measures and the way he acts like he "owns" me is abuse. And the way he talks to me is abuse. And he gets upset and says I'm crazy and that someone is filling my head full of ridiculous ideas. Is there a clear, healthy way to share the abuse concept with someone who is so clearly a verbal abuser (via guilt/ manipulation/ coersion/ etc) so they understand what they are really doing and how very wrong it is? Is there any hope that he can see the light? How can I explain this to him???

I feel like if I just divorce him to get away, it wouldn't be "fair" because I was not clear enough with how he is abusive, since that would be my reason for divorce (and these feelings may be more imposed upon me by him and by my parents than myself, but I still feel them). He says he wants marriage counseling. He says he wants to know why I filed for divorce. And why I want time apart. And how it's supposed to help. But deep down I feel like he's just asking those questions so he can build up excuses to undermine those things and break me down further and make me come back without him really changing anything.

[LaTeeDa]

I'm no expert, but I don't really think you're going to have much luck convincing an abuser that he is an abuser.

Maybe it would help to have some individual counseling. Take some time and talk with a therapist in order to confirm your feelings and be sure about what you really want.

In the meantime, you don't have to rush the divorce if you are not ready. My divorce was pending in the court for two years before I finally submitted everything to make it final. Check with the court clerk and find out how long it can stay pending before they dismiss it.

Also, it sounds like it would be good for you to go no contact. You can enforce that boundary if you want to. You don't have to answer the phone just because it rings. You could change your number, too. You have the right to take some time and work on yourself. You don't need his permission to do it.

L

[Pajarito]

Originally Posted by JustMeInWI

But deep down I feel like he's just asking those questions so he can build up excuses to undermine those things and break me down further and make me come back without him really changing anything.

Stay with that. By far the biggest lesson I have learned through my recent experiences is to trust my gut. In your thread I see so many signs that your gut is telling you one thing, but you are confused by what others are saying to you. Listen to what you want. If it contradicts what others want- but your gut keeps calling to you- you have a conflict. Conflict is ok- in fact it is normal! I spent years trying to avoid it by being a people pleaser. The reality is that I could never have done enough to please my dad, my STBXAH- no one but me. It's just the reality. I'm done being a people pleaser. Now my goal is to listen to what I want in my life. I no longer want to spend my days obsessing about what STBXAH is doing or not doing, trying to convince him what I want is valid, trying to get him to agree with me, do what I want, blahblahblah. Big fat waste of MY precious life. It shouldn't be that hard!

IMHO trying to convince your STBXAH of your stance is useless. I spent way too much time trying to do that- it's called trying to control. You can't control what he thinks or does. It would be lovely to get everyone on board with your life plan, but that is never going to happen- even under the best circumstances. You know what you want, but every time you try to have a conversation with him it all goes down the tubes. You become confused and worry you are hurting feelings, not explaning your self clearly enough, etc. I did that too. . . all a waste of time.

I would think twice about meeting with him simply because it would probably be more of the same- you trying to defend, analyze, explain, and him trying to convince you you're crazy. . .

What is your gut telling you???

[ToughChoices]

Originally Posted by JustMeInWI

I've tried to explain that his controlling measures and the way he acts like he "owns" me is abuse. And the way he talks to me is abuse. And he gets upset and says I'm crazy and that someone is filling my head full of ridiculous ideas. Is there a clear, healthy way to share the abuse concept with someone who is so clearly a verbal abuser (via guilt/ manipulation/ coersion/ etc) so they understand what they are really doing and how very wrong it is? Is there any hope that he can see the light? How can I explain this to him???

His controlling measures and his "owning" behaviors constitute emotional abuse to you. That means they are abuse. If you feel abused, your feelings are valid. You have every right to protect yourself. You have every right to resolutely refuse to tolerate behaviors that are harmful to you.

But everyone is different.
Repeat that.

His standards and opinions are different than your own.
And the word "abuse" is LOADED with emotion.

There are some behaviors that MOST people agree are abusive (punching, kicking, scratching, etc....) and there are many gray areas - situations that I may find intolerable might not faze you one bit, and vice versa.

You've tried to explain your feelings in a million different ways, and he just doesn't get it. He can't see from your perspective. It's not "abuse" to him - (and the very mention of that word probably gets his ire up) so he tries to convince you that you are wrong to feel the way that you do. He must defend himself - in his mind, he IS NOT abusive. He quit drinking. He loves you. He wants this to work. So you must be crazy.

(Personally, I find it abusive when someone tells me that I have mental problems because I disagree with them.)

I don't think there is any clear way to explain your point of view and have him "see the light."
You've been trying to explain. It hasn't worked so far.
You can try again, if you'd like.
You could write a letter using lots of "I" statements and read it to him.

But I wouldn't expect any magical changes.

He's in recovery. He is who he is.
You're in recovery. You're discovering yourself everyday.

Maybe who he is and who you are just doesn't mesh well any longer.
I'm not sure there's any way to make someone understand that before they are ready.

I'm thinking of you today, JustMe.
Take care.
-TC

[Bernadette]

Is there a clear, healthy way to share the abuse concept with someone who is so clearly a verbal abuser (via guilt/ manipulation/ coersion/ etc) so they understand what they are really doing and how very wrong it is?

I doubt it.

I would stay away from this type of person.
My recovery is strong but I also actively avoid toxic people and toxic situations.

There are so many decent people out in the world who are not this way. Like YOU! Hang out with those people!

Also sometimes just changing the date of something helps take the anxiety out of it-- like why should you do something you feel pressured to do that is not, actually, imperative? It's not a pap smear or a dental cleaning for heaven's sakes - it can wait until you feel strong enough to handle it or strong enough to say "No thanks." I find that just by holding my cards a little close to my chest I feel better.

When I first was breaking the chains of codependence I was propelled forward in my recovery every time I said "No" to something I didn't want to do. Just "No." If I felt uncomfortable or especially if my feeling of "obligation" had been triggered that was my new clue to say "No" or "Not right now. I need some time to sit with it."

Good luck WI--
peace-
B.

[Still Waters]

It is hard to explain, to anyone. I know, my AH is the same. It's emotional and mental abuse, I know it is because it made me dreadfully ill - and I decided that's all I needed to know. I went to counseling, and there I was able to explain what was going on and reassure myself that it wasn't me who was the problem.

The last straw was when he stated he didn't need any counseling, there was nothing wrong with him and he would have no idea what to discuss with a counselor. A lifelong alcoholic, who lived in filth up to his knees in his home - and he has nothing to discuss with a counselor. Okay.

There is no telling or convincing them. JustMe - take a look at this article:

He/she is often guilty of rationalizing. By dissipating the criticism of others through makeshift explanations, they attempt to bolster self-esteem. They must justify their self at every turn, however wayward are their attitudes and behaviors. Therefore, they find many reasons for avoiding AA and NA, and each reason might be plausible, but their argument attempts to ignore the truth; that they need AA and/or NA, or other help.

The addict who rationalizes about his/her own irresponsible behavior is also likely to find fault in the attitudes and behavior of others. Although not denying their own shortcomings, they attempt to escape notice of them by cataloging in great detail the transgressions of his family, friends, employer and those who are in authority. He/she tries to get off the hook by equating others with themselves, but this is quite transparent. They are not really interested in reform, but in being able to say with some truth, “Look, I am not so different from anyone else.”

The maneuver of projection seems to be quite like rationalization on the surface. By projection, the addict finds in others what is unacceptable in his/her self This involves great lack of insight whereby he/she attempts to rid themselves of their intolerable feelings and motives by recognizing these feelings in others. He/she might interpret their conduct as motivated by feelings that they unconsciously acknowledges as unworthy in their own attitudes towards themselves. The maneuver of projection might cause them to accuse others of wanting them to get drunk, or they might accuse their AA and NA friends of using. They may also accuse others of suspecting them of using.

You cannot reason with people like this, it's utterly futile.

[Barbara52]

My experience with abusers over the years has led me to conclude that trying to get an abuser to see that they are abusing only leads to more abuse.

[GiveLove]

JustMe,

You will never convince him that he is not abusing you. He has crossed boundaries, he doesn't care that he upsets and confuses you, he doesn't think you have a right to your own thoughts (neither does your family, so this is a lifelong hurdle you've had to suffer) THIS IS ALL ABOUT HIS NEEDS. I have been through this as well.

I can't tell you what to do, but I CAN tell you what you're in for: A night of intense, pull-out-all-the-stops manipulation that will leave you beat-up and feeling insane.

I'm sure there's much to love about this man. But it's a package deal -- to get the good parts, you will have to surrender your right to your own thoughts, feelings, and opinions.

Only you can decide whether that kind of "love" is worth it to you.

Hugs,
GL

[JustMeInWI]

I want to first thank all of you for all your ES&L.

I'm such a mess. I want to not be alone so badly that I went against my own gut and met with him, talked LOOOOOONG into the night (3am), and ended up having him over. I'm sleep deprived and as confused as hell. He is clearly my drug of choice. And I got a fix. And I'm beginning to feel the after affects. And yet, I don't want to stop. I'm not ready to stop. I'm not ready for all the pain that is ahead of me. The unfamiliar, lurking pain that will take years to work through and process and heal before I can ever have the love of another. I want to stay broken a little while longer. If only to ease this new pain off a little while longer.

Being alone and separate from the people I've loved the longest and most in my life through Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years was too much for me. And even though he did a lot more crazy-making over dinner last night, talked ridiculous, useless, quackquack, me me me quack me me quack... it didn't stop me from spending the night with him. I know that my actions were extremely self-serving, but this time I feel justified since his actions have been self-serving since the day we met. All the times he used, hurt, and abused me feeling justified all the while.

I'll be sorry for this later. But right now I'm slipping. And I'm shutting my eyes as tightly as I can to it because I'm too tired to deal with another day alone, with no arms around me, no one to kiss me, to hold me, to say they love me... we both want it. He wants to feel in control again, and I want to feel "loved" again.

[Pajarito]

(((JustMe)))

[anvilhead]

you are absolutely entitled to your choices........just remember all of our choices have consequences. should be no surprises..........good luck

[ToughChoices]

Originally Posted by JustMeInWI

I'll be sorry for this later. But right now I'm slipping. And I'm shutting my eyes as tightly as I can to it because I'm too tired to deal with another day alone, with no arms around me, no one to kiss me, to hold me, to say they love me... we both want it. He wants to feel in control again, and I want to feel "loved" again.

I love that you are able to look at this situation so honestly.
That's a gift.

I "shut my eyes" a time or two, as well. That's what it took to get me to a point where I was really ready for the changes I kept wanting to want to make.

Who knows, JustMe? He's working a program - keep working yours and crack those peepers every now and then.
Maybe you'll see something beautiful.

Love to you today.
-TC