Is there a relationship between alcoholism and narcissism?
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My Experience is that many people who suffer from NPD are alcoholics, but not all alcoholics are NPD. As alcoholism progresses the alcoholic becomes more self absorbed and the addiction is more pronounced. Their worlds become narrower, but this is not the same as NPD (where capacity for empathy is non-existent). Alcoholics often express empathy for each other. Then NPD's complete focus is on themselves. Period.
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Originally Posted by Ifnotforgrace 
My Experience is that many people who suffer from NPD are alcoholics, but not all alcoholics are NPD. As alcoholism progresses the alcoholic becomes more self absorbed and the addiction is more pronounced. Their worlds become narrower, but this is not the same as NPD (where capacity for empathy is non-existent). Alcoholics often express empathy for each other. Then NPD's complete focus is on themselves. Period.
The science end of this has advanced since this thread started 4 or 5 years ago.
The more technical term for the condition of having BOTH addiction and an underlying Mental Illness issue is commonly called Dual Diagnosis. But that sort of assumes treatment is sought, and an effective Diagnosis is made.
Typical estimates are that well over half of the folks in Long Term Addiction/Alcohol Treatment Centers have underlying Mental Illness / Personality Disorder type problems.
Typical ones underlying Long Term A . . . .
from Wiki Personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cluster B (dramatic, emotional or erratic disorders)
Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, lack of empathy
Borderline personality disorder: pervasive pattern of instability in relationships, self-image, identity, behavior and affects often leading to self-harm and impulsivity
Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive pattern of attention-seeking behavior and excessive emotions
Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy
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On the Anatomy and Physiology side of things -- fMRI Brain Scans are now showing a common brain (dys)function pattern between various Personality Disorders (such as Narcissism) and Long Term Addiction(s), including Alcoholism.
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But that is just the clinical side of the A portion.
This being the Friends and Family side of things, here is present best book I have dealt with on the matter. On my desk.
For a cause.Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life: Margalis Fjelstad: 9781442220188: Amazon.com: Books
Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life by Margalis Fjelstad | 9781442220188 | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble
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Some short articles by the same author . . . .
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...al-manipulator
Are You Married to a Narcissist? | Psychology Today
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I've been doing a ton of googling on this as well. In fact, I came on today with the intention of asking this exact question! I understand that many A's display narcissistic tendencies with regard to their addiction, but my AH has these traits all day long (he's always sober until the evenings) and it's not specific to the drink. He seems to generally believe he's above everyone in every respect. I realize the answer won't help MY recovery, but it would help my decision making process.
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if you go to rehab in this country chances are you are going to come out with a dual diagnosis..meaning they are going to diagnosis you with a mental illness or a personality disorder however this large spike in addicts with underlying issues isn't because addicts suddenly are more mentally ill then in the past. It's a different system that favors giving more people medication.
I'd be easy to self diagnose somebody with NPD. It is a pretty rare diagnosis
I'd be easy to self diagnose somebody with NPD. It is a pretty rare diagnosis
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Hammer, I CANNOT thank you enough for your book recommendation. I downloaded it on to my Kindle this morning and I am 51 percent the way through. I went into therapy in my twenties for my family of origin issues. I was told that it is very likely that my mother is borderline/NPD and my father is NPD. I own literally 50 books on these traits and no book has ever so clearly stated the problems and the family dynamics that go on with these mental illnesses than this book. I am a Caretaker to the extreme. I have been one my whole life and this is my year to break free from those chains. My mother has in the last 7-10 years also become a full blown alcoholic, which is some ways has been easier to deal with because the outside world can now see the true level of her dysfunction. Anyway, I just needed to say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
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My therapist thinks my AXBF has NPD with a touch of sociopathy for good measure. Of course, it's hard to diagnose someone from afar, but it's painfully obvious that he has problems severe enought to warrant a personality disorder diagnosis. He's also mentally ill: depression, panic disorder, and OCD.
I think a lot of addicts have personality disorders. I think the personality disorder comes first and then, because they have so many problems in life and have zero capacity to cope, they become addicts. The reason they have problems in life is because they have personality disorders but usually don't know it, and they are baffled/angry/confused as to why life and the people in it don't bend to their wishes/wants. Plain and simple, they just don't get that they are the problem, that the way they think is not normal and that it alienates healthy people.
But also, after someone has been an addict long enough, they can develop the symptoms of NPD even if they didn't have it before. In that case, there is hope for them because they don't really have NPD, they just act like it due to addiction.
I think the reason AA works is because it teaches people that their view of the world and how to get along in it is disordered. It sort of re-parents addicts, offering an accepting environment while also laying down the law and making it clear that being short-sighted, entitled, overly emotional, immature, self-indulgent, impulsive, etc. is not an appropriate way for adults to act--it's disordered. I think that's also why AA doesn't work for some people. If they are personality disordered, there are a lot less likely to accept the teachings of AA because people with personality disorders usually just can't see it and see no need to change.
The reality is that AA and other recovery programs do not help a lot of people, and I suspect that those it doesn't work on are personality disordered. Best to cut your losses if you think your addict has NPD or another Cluster B disorder. As a poster mentioned above, many therapists will not treat the Cluster B's because of the aggravation and lack of progress.
I think a lot of addicts have personality disorders. I think the personality disorder comes first and then, because they have so many problems in life and have zero capacity to cope, they become addicts. The reason they have problems in life is because they have personality disorders but usually don't know it, and they are baffled/angry/confused as to why life and the people in it don't bend to their wishes/wants. Plain and simple, they just don't get that they are the problem, that the way they think is not normal and that it alienates healthy people.
But also, after someone has been an addict long enough, they can develop the symptoms of NPD even if they didn't have it before. In that case, there is hope for them because they don't really have NPD, they just act like it due to addiction.
I think the reason AA works is because it teaches people that their view of the world and how to get along in it is disordered. It sort of re-parents addicts, offering an accepting environment while also laying down the law and making it clear that being short-sighted, entitled, overly emotional, immature, self-indulgent, impulsive, etc. is not an appropriate way for adults to act--it's disordered. I think that's also why AA doesn't work for some people. If they are personality disordered, there are a lot less likely to accept the teachings of AA because people with personality disorders usually just can't see it and see no need to change.
The reality is that AA and other recovery programs do not help a lot of people, and I suspect that those it doesn't work on are personality disordered. Best to cut your losses if you think your addict has NPD or another Cluster B disorder. As a poster mentioned above, many therapists will not treat the Cluster B's because of the aggravation and lack of progress.
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This is a great thread, and I'm glad it was resurrected. I'm in Tennessee right now visiting my family (minus AM, who wasn't invited to Grandmother's 90th birthday celebration). My aunt (AM's younger sister) and I have always had a strained relationship, but since I cut ties with AM, we have bonded. Aunt is an RA of about 15 years now, so she's about the only person here who gets me. Anyway, we have been up late talking since she's a night owl and I'm on Seattle time. I have learned so much that really has put pieces of the AM puzzle together. She's been NPD her whole life, but only an alcoholic since her 30s. Although there's speculation that it's really been since her 20s, but nobody can say for sure. Aunt told me how AM used to tell her how fat and ugly she was, pinch her nose to make a point that it was too big, etc. Reminds me of my relationship with my (probably NPD older sister). So I tend to agree that many NPDs are alcoholics, but not all alcoholics are NPDs. We have a good family friend who is an A who is the complete opposite of AM. Honestly, I've never been uncomfortable around him, which is strange, because most As make me crazy. He's not really any different drunk than he is sober.
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Originally Posted by Chantal88
There haven't been any studies to show a correlation between a personality disorder and alcoholism from what I know of.
SEVERE Politics in this realm. Some of the "banned" topics and publications in several fields are sort of surprising.
The interesting parts I have seen are the various fMRI scans since 2003, and still on-going.
What shows up over and over is Amygdala Hyperactivity, Dysfunction, and (perhaps) general shrinking or harm in this area. (still hard to track over time).
The comparisons where a possible relationship does show up are studies of Alcohol use generally cited as "binge drinkers" and the early assumptions were that the High Alcohol use caused the harm to the Amygdala, or at least shrinking.
May not be the case. Could be already dysfunctioning Amygdala regions are part of the Emotional Dysregulation and lost of Impulse Control that can lead to Alcoholism. fMRI studies of various Personality Disorder type Mental Illness often show the same patterns.
So which came first? Hard to say. I do know the studies are currently on-going. Whether the results will hit publication . . . whole other topic.
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Originally Posted by changeschoices
My therapist thinks my AXBF has NPD with a touch of sociopathy for good measure. Of course, it's hard to diagnose someone from afar, but it's painfully obvious that he has problems severe enought to warrant a personality disorder diagnosis. He's also mentally ill: depression, panic disorder, and OCD.
I think a lot of addicts have personality disorders. I think the personality disorder comes first and then, because they have so many problems in life and have zero capacity to cope, they become addicts. The reason they have problems in life is because they have personality disorders but usually don't know it, and they are baffled/angry/confused as to why life and the people in it don't bend to their wishes/wants. Plain and simple, they just don't get that they are the problem, that the way they think is not normal and that it alienates healthy people.
But also, after someone has been an addict long enough, they can develop the symptoms of NPD even if they didn't have it before. In that case, there is hope for them because they don't really have NPD, they just act like it due to addiction.
I think the reason AA works is because it teaches people that their view of the world and how to get along in it is disordered. It sort of re-parents addicts, offering an accepting environment while also laying down the law and making it clear that being short-sighted, entitled, overly emotional, immature, self-indulgent, impulsive, etc. is not an appropriate way for adults to act--it's disordered. I think that's also why AA doesn't work for some people. If they are personality disordered, there are a lot less likely to accept the teachings of AA because people with personality disorders usually just can't see it and see no need to change.
I think a lot of addicts have personality disorders. I think the personality disorder comes first and then, because they have so many problems in life and have zero capacity to cope, they become addicts. The reason they have problems in life is because they have personality disorders but usually don't know it, and they are baffled/angry/confused as to why life and the people in it don't bend to their wishes/wants. Plain and simple, they just don't get that they are the problem, that the way they think is not normal and that it alienates healthy people.
But also, after someone has been an addict long enough, they can develop the symptoms of NPD even if they didn't have it before. In that case, there is hope for them because they don't really have NPD, they just act like it due to addiction.
I think the reason AA works is because it teaches people that their view of the world and how to get along in it is disordered. It sort of re-parents addicts, offering an accepting environment while also laying down the law and making it clear that being short-sighted, entitled, overly emotional, immature, self-indulgent, impulsive, etc. is not an appropriate way for adults to act--it's disordered. I think that's also why AA doesn't work for some people. If they are personality disordered, there are a lot less likely to accept the teachings of AA because people with personality disorders usually just can't see it and see no need to change.
EXACTLY what the top line T told me -- "Her" stuff is working for her. It is you who has the problem with it.
"My-Little-A" seems to have Borderline Traits.
The reality is that AA and other recovery programs do not help a lot of people, and I suspect that those it doesn't work on are personeality disordered. Best to cut your losses if you think your addict has NPD or another Cluster B disorder. As a poster mentioned above, many therapists will not treat the Cluster B's because of the aggravation and lack of progress.
If you get into the AA side of things and How It Works (Chapter 5, Big Book) it goes into this a bit. Hard part is the Rigorous Honesty thing. Sort of (sad) funny that after Rehab, "My-Little-A" was hit with a Compulsive Lying Addiction.
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http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf
How it works
RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
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@ Hammer: "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" ...loved it!
After 6 years I am asking the same question (the topic title).
My grandfather was an alcoholic, and my father has many narcissistic traits, but he is for sure, so called, Adult child of an alcoholic.
There is something in this dynamic, in toxic principles, in behavior, denial, lies, having no boundaries, manipulation, self-absorption about their own problems...
What is it?
They both are black emotional holes. ...and they raised me.
Sometimes I think, maybe its better for me not to have children. My learned principles about conditional love, my low and limited capacity of love.. my hereditary self-absorption.
Guess that narcissism breeds narcissism.
Well, that is everything what can be learned from him.
Where are other, healthy principles?
...forgetting that I have a healthy mother and her parents who have healthy mental and addiction-free histories.
After 6 years I am asking the same question (the topic title).
My grandfather was an alcoholic, and my father has many narcissistic traits, but he is for sure, so called, Adult child of an alcoholic.
There is something in this dynamic, in toxic principles, in behavior, denial, lies, having no boundaries, manipulation, self-absorption about their own problems...
What is it?
They both are black emotional holes. ...and they raised me.
Sometimes I think, maybe its better for me not to have children. My learned principles about conditional love, my low and limited capacity of love.. my hereditary self-absorption.
Guess that narcissism breeds narcissism.
Well, that is everything what can be learned from him.
Where are other, healthy principles?
...forgetting that I have a healthy mother and her parents who have healthy mental and addiction-free histories.
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 14
And one more thing is on my mind ...since I can't edit my post;
is it possible, in our struggle to break free from self-absorbed alcoholic or a narcissist, in our struggle for our own sense of Self, to develop a narcissistic traits?
is it possible, in our struggle to break free from self-absorbed alcoholic or a narcissist, in our struggle for our own sense of Self, to develop a narcissistic traits?
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Thank you for this thread...it is actually very helpful and I am so grateful to those who have stated that it doesn't matter what the answer is-NPD or alcoholism as the traits are the same.
I went through the past 13 years detaching from my AM after my RAF (due to a massive stroke and 11 good years with the non drinking even if sick) died. I reached out for help and have been dealing with addiction in my immediate family as well. Although I serious rejected 12 step work to begin with - started with Alanon...I went to therapists as well and had an ah ha when I realized that my therapist had taught me the same techniques that I was learning (much slower due to my resistance and anger at feeling like I 'had' to be there for someone else...that faded with my 2nd addict and is gone now with my 3rd--and I have graduated to naranon for me).
I work the steps all the time...and yet, I never feel as if I have come a great distance...and yet...I am ready and eager for the next step...and I have had to put that thinking down and just thank God and my program for the great work in me that has occurred even if I sometimes can't remember a lot of it...after integrating a new behavior and I seek the next step.
What I kept questioning was the same question posed here...as a therapist told me that my mother was a narcissist...and I got hung up on her drinking...it was when substance abuse starting manifesting in my teenage children and I begged and pleaded with her to stop and I think that all here can understand she didn't take it well.
It took a very long time for me to stop trying with her...the cravings for a good relationship with her which went back to age 7 were so hard to deal with...and yet, as I was working on things around my own children addicts...I believed what I was told that the only person I can work on is myself...so started...slow by slow...there have been some wonderful ah hah's around certain things...other times it is just steps 1, 2, 3 over and over again...discovering step 10 and that is also helpful...and trying on step 4...and dealing with it one layer at a time...and trying not to get hung up in the process rules but simply to stay on task...as this saves my life.
This question allowed me (after finally being able to detach and let go 1 1/2 years ago--it took living in a different country, hitting bottom financially and reaching out of true desperation to hear 'I am so disappointed in you' and in my own heart...a voice finally came and said...I am not disappointed in me...and positive change started from there...it is hard...it is challenging...I cry and have anxiety attacks and pray to my higher power for guidance and direction and to block me from paths that do not work for me...but one thing positive that I can say today is that the answer doesn't matter...those 13 years were full of research and full of trying and retrying and looking for new paths...it didn't matter...it didn't change her regardless of the problem and it allowed me to change because I went at it with brute force...but no longer have that energy and I am so glad that I have a program and that I could be so inspired by this post and hear the wisdom here that I could not when I was fighting to find the exact answer...which saved me from none of the struggle the suffering and ultimately..thank you HP (God to me) the release in love.
I went through the past 13 years detaching from my AM after my RAF (due to a massive stroke and 11 good years with the non drinking even if sick) died. I reached out for help and have been dealing with addiction in my immediate family as well. Although I serious rejected 12 step work to begin with - started with Alanon...I went to therapists as well and had an ah ha when I realized that my therapist had taught me the same techniques that I was learning (much slower due to my resistance and anger at feeling like I 'had' to be there for someone else...that faded with my 2nd addict and is gone now with my 3rd--and I have graduated to naranon for me).
I work the steps all the time...and yet, I never feel as if I have come a great distance...and yet...I am ready and eager for the next step...and I have had to put that thinking down and just thank God and my program for the great work in me that has occurred even if I sometimes can't remember a lot of it...after integrating a new behavior and I seek the next step.
What I kept questioning was the same question posed here...as a therapist told me that my mother was a narcissist...and I got hung up on her drinking...it was when substance abuse starting manifesting in my teenage children and I begged and pleaded with her to stop and I think that all here can understand she didn't take it well.
It took a very long time for me to stop trying with her...the cravings for a good relationship with her which went back to age 7 were so hard to deal with...and yet, as I was working on things around my own children addicts...I believed what I was told that the only person I can work on is myself...so started...slow by slow...there have been some wonderful ah hah's around certain things...other times it is just steps 1, 2, 3 over and over again...discovering step 10 and that is also helpful...and trying on step 4...and dealing with it one layer at a time...and trying not to get hung up in the process rules but simply to stay on task...as this saves my life.
This question allowed me (after finally being able to detach and let go 1 1/2 years ago--it took living in a different country, hitting bottom financially and reaching out of true desperation to hear 'I am so disappointed in you' and in my own heart...a voice finally came and said...I am not disappointed in me...and positive change started from there...it is hard...it is challenging...I cry and have anxiety attacks and pray to my higher power for guidance and direction and to block me from paths that do not work for me...but one thing positive that I can say today is that the answer doesn't matter...those 13 years were full of research and full of trying and retrying and looking for new paths...it didn't matter...it didn't change her regardless of the problem and it allowed me to change because I went at it with brute force...but no longer have that energy and I am so glad that I have a program and that I could be so inspired by this post and hear the wisdom here that I could not when I was fighting to find the exact answer...which saved me from none of the struggle the suffering and ultimately..thank you HP (God to me) the release in love.
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Originally Posted by BumblingAlong
So, why DO alcoholics "double bind" - tell you they love you and then cheat on you (by the way - that's exactly what my XAB did a few months ago). I'm still trying to sort it out,
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No... It is impossible.
How can you be in Love with yourself (Narcissis was transfixed by his own reflection in a pond) and slowly killing yourself at the same time?
Selfishness is a shared attribute. But alcoholism is a lack of self worth, not too much self worth.
Watch the movie Leaving Las Vegas and tell me if you think that guys problem is he loves himself too much.
How can you be in Love with yourself (Narcissis was transfixed by his own reflection in a pond) and slowly killing yourself at the same time?
Selfishness is a shared attribute. But alcoholism is a lack of self worth, not too much self worth.
Watch the movie Leaving Las Vegas and tell me if you think that guys problem is he loves himself too much.
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Originally Posted by Hawks
No... It is impossible.
How can you be in Love with yourself (Narcissis was transfixed by his own reflection in a pond) and slowly killing yourself at the same time?
Selfishness is a shared attribute. But alcoholism is a lack of self worth, not too much self worth.
Watch the movie Leaving Las Vegas and tell me if you think that guys problem is he loves himself too much.
How can you be in Love with yourself (Narcissis was transfixed by his own reflection in a pond) and slowly killing yourself at the same time?
Selfishness is a shared attribute. But alcoholism is a lack of self worth, not too much self worth.
Watch the movie Leaving Las Vegas and tell me if you think that guys problem is he loves himself too much.
Another thing your post brings to mind is A Course in Miracles, which has helped me a lot in that when AH deflects, I'm able to identify his deflections as manifestations of fear. I'm thinking the fear is due to lack of self-worth. I see the seeds of it going way, way back to when he was a child, but it makes me feel powerless to do anything about it except be as kind as possible, yet not yield to the manipulation.
But I still think alcoholics can have narcissistic tendencies and/or exhibit narcissistic behavior. And in general, I agree that rather than analyzing we should just call it as it is and stand tall.
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I'm reading Marianne Williams book "A reflection on A Course In Miracles "
It is helping this recovered Alcoholic to learn to love himself to a healthy level, also it is teaching me to love others unconditionally.
I can see where the confusion arises between alcoholism and npd.
However the root causes are not the same for the reasons I mentioned.
You can't be in Love with yourself and killing yourself at the same time.
It is helping this recovered Alcoholic to learn to love himself to a healthy level, also it is teaching me to love others unconditionally.
I can see where the confusion arises between alcoholism and npd.
However the root causes are not the same for the reasons I mentioned.
You can't be in Love with yourself and killing yourself at the same time.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
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Originally Posted by Hawks
I'm reading Marianne Williams book "A reflection on A Course In Miracles "
It is helping this recovered Alcoholic to learn to love himself to a healthy level, also it is teaching me to love others unconditionally.
I can see where the confusion arises between alcoholism and npd.
However the root causes are not the same for the reasons I mentioned.
You can't be in Love with yourself and killing yourself at the same time.
It is helping this recovered Alcoholic to learn to love himself to a healthy level, also it is teaching me to love others unconditionally.
I can see where the confusion arises between alcoholism and npd.
However the root causes are not the same for the reasons I mentioned.
You can't be in Love with yourself and killing yourself at the same time.
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