My Lovely Wife

[denny57]

Originally Posted by formychildren

I can only hope and pray that she decides that what we have is more important than that stupid bottle. I know she knows that deep down, I just have to get it to the surface and keep it there.

That's a huge burden. I hope for you that SHE will get it to the surface and keep it there.

I hope for you that you look into separate support for yourself alone.

Good luck and keep posting!

[TTOSBT]

So, what does being a "textbook" alcoholic mean to her? Did she talk to you about her drinking (i.e., how often, etc)?

Would she be willing to go to an AA meeting if you went with her? maybe you could start there? She does not need to talk, she could just listen. Just a thought.

Why did the first "incident" keep you guys from hanging out with the neighbors? Can't you do that without drinking? Like you said, she needs her adult time and she is going to have to learn how to have that sober. That might be a good place to start? Or not. I am sure you have thought about that.

Anyway, it is good to hear that you were able to talk and hopefully are working towards sobriety.

[FormerDoormat]

Just as there is textbook alcoholic behavior, there is textbook co-dependent behavior. Back when I was a new member on this forum, I had a similar heartfelt discussion with my alcoholic boyfriend. Over time, I realized that my plan of action for him was textbook co-dependent behavior.

The problem with my plan (which was nearly identical to the plan you described above) is that it required no action on my part, but plenty of action on my boyfriend's part. I, too believed a heartfelt discussion would motivate him to change. I've since learned that it's impossible to force, bargain, cajole, or manipulate someone into action.

Change has to come from within. Motivation has to come from within. The only plan that worked for me was a plan that required ME to change.

Like you, I wanted to believe that I had the power to change my boyfriend. Like you, I wanted to believe that my daugther and I were more important than a "stupid bottle," but that was just magical thinking on my part.

The reality of the situation was I couldn't stop my boyfriend from drinking and couldn't make him get help. The most tragic reality of all was that he cared much more for a stupid bottle than he cared for me.

Magical thinking was a self-preservation tool that I used to protect myself from harm. Because the reality of the situation was devastating to me. Realizing that I came second to a bottle and my daughter came second to a bottle was extremely painful. So, for years I fooled myself until my magical thinking no longer worked and the quality of my life became unbearable.

That's when I had to face the truth--that my boyfriend cared more about a bottle than he cared for me; that he had no intention of changing; that he was willing to tell me anything in order to continue drinking; that he was willing to lie, cheat, or steal to get his next drink; that he was willing to risk other folks' lives when he got behind the wheel of a car; that he was willing to give up his health, his sanity, his job, his home, his relationship, his children; and most importantly that he was willing to trade his life for his next drink.

The truth is, the only plan of action that worked was one that centered around me.

So, with that in mind, what changes are you willing to make to keep your children safe? To protect your home, your health, your sanity, your job? To ensure your happiness, peace of mind, and serenity?

I hope you'll stick around, think your situation through carefully, learn all you can about codependency and alcoholism, stop relying on magical thinking, learn to face the truth, and take action to change you and your childrens' lives.

It's the same hope I have for everyone who's life has been affected by another person's drinking. Best of luck to you.

[ToughChoices]

Originally Posted by formychildren

She said she needed me to help. I explained that I was not a professional and all I could give her was 100% support. She said that she would not speak with the person when we were there...that she only wanted my help. I hope that the first step of at least going will get her to eventually open up. She doesn't think a stranger can help her.

I cannot tell you how many conversations just exactly like this I had with my husband.

He'd honestly confess the problem.
Tell me how much he needed me to help,
Hypothesize about what the "underlying problem" might be (not enough friends, too little time to himself, lack of exercise, etc...)
We'd cry and hold each other.

Then the hoping would begin.
I'd hope that he'd stop.
I'd do anything in my power to help him stop.
I'd spend hours thinking about how I could help him stop.

But I didn't spend much time thinking about how I could help myself.

It seemed selfish to want peace. It seemed selfish to want to be happy when the person that I loved was struggling so much.
So I let myself be absolutely consumed by his addiction - I sacrificed my life for his.

But it wasn't a sacrifice made out of the purest intentions -
I didn't just do it because I loved him.
I did it because I needed him to get better.
Eventually, I wanted him to pay me back for my sacrifice.

When that return on my investment was slow in coming, I got angry. And bitter.

Be careful with your heart, formychildren.
Don't give it all to her - alcoholics have a very hard time taking care of such precious gifts.

-TC

[Pajarito]

Amen FD and TC- I could not have said it better.

I spent years- over 10 years, trying to help my STBXAH get the help I wanted him to get. We went through 5 counselors- all initiated by me- all extremely knowledgeable about chemical dependency- ALL dropped by STBXAH. Whenever his feet were held to the fire he'd get uncomfortable and quit. I read, I cried, got angry, begged, walked on eggshells, went to my own counselor, tried to make life at home less stressful- nothing worked. He chose another woman and the bottle over me and his 10 yr. old dd. Am I shocked- yes- and no. Alcoholism is a formidable foe- one I would not wish on anyone. I wish I knew 10 years ago what I know now. I would have protected myself. In that time I expended a lot of energy on a man who had no intention of stopping behavior that put our lives at risk, that ate our finances and destroyed our relationship- not to mention how it has affected our families and friends. I tried to stop the tide, but I was not that powerful.

Take care of yourself fmc. It's really all you can do.

[Silverberry1331]

(((formychildren)))--sending big hugs right now.

I had the same conversations with my husband. Each one, I saw as "progress", but like you have read...he had the same sentiments...by telling me that he wasn't comfortable around strangers and his problems, and by telling me he needs ME and MY help, he put the responsibility for his addiction on me, and took it off of him. This allowed excuses when my "help" fell short (and it always does)...there is a key difference between HELP and SUPPORT....help is when you are the initator, the doer, the fixer, you are the foundation...SUPPORT is when you are supplimenter, and the other person does the work.

What do you do as the supporter? You work on you and your recovery (for codependency), you sit with her at meetings if she requests it, you allow her to do the work, you listen, you have boundaries, you do not shield her from her consequences, you celebrate soberity. Living your life in a more healthy manner.

It is easy to leave work early, curtail enjoyed activities, go into work late, cover for crisis, letting your mood be dictated to hers, walking on eggshells...it does nothing, but short change your life. Be the support, not the help.

Alot of alcoholics quack...You will see that from time to time, and when you are new to this, you can't see the difference between heartfelt promises and quacking. Read through the board, so you can recognize the signs of the duck call.

My thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep posting!

[Techie1701]

I spent years- over 10 years, trying to help my STBXAH get the help I wanted him to get. We went through 5 counselors- all initiated by me- all extremely knowledgeable about chemical dependency- ALL dropped by STBXAH. Whenever his feet were held to the fire he'd get uncomfortable and quit. I read, I cried, got angry, begged, walked on eggshells, went to my own counselor, tried to make life at home less stressful- nothing worked. He chose another woman and the bottle over me and his 10 yr. old dd. Am I shocked- yes- and no. Alcoholism is a formidable foe- one I would not wish on anyone. I wish I knew 10 years ago what I know now. I would have protected myself. In that time I expended a lot of energy on a man who had no intention of stopping behavior that put our lives at risk, that ate our finances and destroyed our relationship- not to mention how it has affected our families and friends. I tried to stop the tide, but I was not that powerful

.


Dang. Toot. Heck. Blug. Flug. &*%$”^£&^%*$%^”&$%^$%&%^£$&%

FWIW, DH and I are at the beginning of this stage. He isn’t that bad. I have found his drinking hard to take for years, probably 15 years at this stage, no abuse, no drinking during the day. We recently started couples counselling. We’ve been to three sessions. The counsellor is experienced in dealing with addictions, DH is stonewalling, but I’m hopeful counsellor will get through to him. Sounds like the situation above, but early on in the process.

I’m feeling like I’m being too picky, he isn’t that bad, and he’s a good father. We have three young children, us seperating/divorcing will tear their world apart. Posts like this make me realise he IS that bad, and that things can’t continue how they are, no matter how comfortable things appear…

Thank you Pajarito

[Pajarito]

Originally Posted by Techie1701

.I’m feeling like I’m being too picky, he isn’t that bad, and he’s a good father. We have three young children, us seperating/divorcing will tear their world apart. Posts like this make me realise he IS that bad, and that things can’t continue how they are, no matter how comfortable things appear…

Thank you Pajarito

Don't short change yourself. I adapted and changed myself to accommodate his bad behavior for so many years. Alcoholism is progressive. My STBXAH is a <book> smart man- capable of manipulating a conversation like nobody's business. I- unfortunately- found myself second-guessing my gut over and over. He got worse over time, but so did I. I took on more responsibility, blame, etc. until I had no idea who I was- I just knew I was frustrated and angry. Alcoholism is insidious.

Like FD I had on my rose-colored glasses. I knew what I wanted- now if only STBXAH follow my simple plan- then things would be great. It just doesn't happen like that- in any situation be it addiction or making dinner. HE has to do it for himself- the way he's going to do it, and his version of living life is so vastly different from mine. Once I figured out he was going to do what he wanted- no matter how negatively it affected me or dd- I took off my glasses and started doing what I needed to do to live my life for me-safe, healthy, chaos-free.

[denny57]

What happened for me over 20 years was that my definition of "not that bad" changed drastically.

[NeedHappiness]

Formychildren, welcome!! There isn't much more I can add that's not already been said, so I will just say welcome and we're glad you are here. This forum has helped me tremendously and I hope you continue to read and post here. I have opened my eyes since I first posted here.
You are in my prayers.

[justaboutus]

I adapted and changed myself to accommodate his bad behavior for so many years. Alcoholism is progressive. My STBXAH is a <book> smart man- capable of manipulating a conversation like nobody's business. I- unfortunately- found myself second-guessing my gut over and over. He got worse over time, but so did I. I took on more responsibility, blame, etc. until I had no idea who I was- I just knew I was frustrated and angry. Alcoholism is insidious.

^^^ that's my AH too. Funny how we're all married to the same person.

FMC, I'm in a similar situation to you. I'm the breadwinner. I put my DD in preschool because of my husband's drinking (he was caring for her full time). I wasn't sure he wasn't drinking during the day and didn't dare take the chance of something happening... because if it did, I could never forgive him. She now reaches out for her teacher (something she previously did only to me). The first weeks were brutal (on me, not so much her). It's not what I want, but it's the best I can give her at the moment. That's what I focus on... giving her the best. If it's not good for her, I don't do it. When I think that way, the right decisions become very clear.

[Bernadette]

from Techie and for all reading with kids:

We have three young children, us seperating/divorcing will tear their world apart.

So will having an alcoholic parent.

I also thought my divorce would tear my kids lives apart. I avoided it for years because I had convinced myself of that - I was holding onto some fantasy of the importance of an intact family. We weren't that ideal family anyway, so what on earth was I thinking?????

Divorce is a big adjustment. But it is NOT the end of the world. Not even close. My 2 boys have thrived, they are "so far so good" and I KNOW they have grown and learned better, different ways of being men & how to treat women & be in a relationship than what they would have learned from their irresponsible father and frustrated, aggravated mother.

They also saw a parent who took action and real responsibility and didn't allow an obviously unhealthy situation to fester.

So- I'm not championing divorce or anything - just 2 cents from a very happily divorced for 10 years woman! I'm offering it up as an acceptable, even a preferable & healthy solution for children when the marriage is miserable or one parent is an addict. Things got better fast emotionally for me and the boys when I got out of my head and into reality. In reality the strife of my marriage and the pain I was in was very very unhealthy for my children.

Peace-
B.

[formychildren]

I guess I am having problem with all of the talk of divorce. The last several posts have bothered me a bit. It seems that there is almost an advocacy for divorce in this situation. We have had a relatively happy marriage. Sure, we've had minor ups and downs. But, nothing that I would consider unusual or major...until this issue with alcohol. I made a promise to my wife when we married that I would be there in sickness and health. Obviously, this is the sickness part. It came up very quickly, and I intend to be there.

I know everyone's situation is different, but I don't want to apply a broad generalization. In my mind, saying divorce is "acceptable, even a preferable" solution does not fit my belief system and morals. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the input, but I see that as an absolute last resort. This is in the very beginning stages and has not been going on for years with abuse to me or the children. I want to shut it down before it gets to that stage.

Tonight we ventured out for a couple of hours to our neighbor's house (with baby monitor in tow, of course). We sat around a fire drinking coffee. I found it refreshing and we had a good time. Some of the others were drinking beer, but it didn't seem to affect her. At least, she told me that was the case. I asked several times if she was having a good time without drinking. She told me that indeed she was. I hope that was a good sign and that deep down she wasn't wanting to drink.

I know this question may be naive (bear with me, I'm new to this), but is it possible that a person has a couple very excessive "alcoholic episodes" and is truly not an alcoholic? What classifies a true alcoholic? If I have 2-3 drinks a night (I don't anymore since this began), would that classify me as an alcoholic? Is there a tipping point? I know many people who do just that, and I would not classify them as an alcoholic. Just as I know of a few people with a DUI, who clearly made a very bad decision to drive, that I would not say is an alcoholic. I would say they made a very stupid decision, but aren't alcoholics. Am I in denial, or am I searching for the truth? Or, both?

My intentions are to meet with a therapist/counselor in a private setting. I think it would make me more comfortable, and my wife more comfortable...and maybe more willing to talk. Just knowing my wife, prior to the incidents, she would not do well or open up to strangers in a group setting. She has never had that sort of personality. But, in a one-on-one meeting, she very well may. With some convincing. Luckily, I have very good insurance that will pay for such a program. And, I have found a family counseling center that is very near our home with a specialist in alcohol/substance abuse. Does this make sense?

I don't mean to sound like I'm in denial, I'm not. But, offering up divorce as a quick and easy solution truly got to me.

Thanks to everyone.

[TTOSBT]

formychildren,
I personally am completely against divorce and I knew that if I had not gotten help at the point I did, that might very well have been an option to my husband. I crossed that line when I endangered our daughter's safety. But many of these folks have lived through hell and back with their spouses for years. For them, that was a good decision for THEM.

I do not think that anyone can say what is right for you and your wife except you. They also can not say whether your wife is an alcoholic, only she can. Here is a good passage for you to read though AA Big Book - Chapter 3

I think it is wonderful that you went and drank coffee with the neighbors! And you know what, it is okay if she was sitting there wishing she could have a drink because she was also learning that can enjoy herself without one!

Stay in today and encourage her to do the same. Sometime the thought of not drinking forever is too overwhelming. So all she has to do is not drink today. I think it is wonderful that you chose a therapist that is an addiction specialist. Much more will be revealed as you take that journey. Take it slow and easy. You nor she need to figure everything out today.

You are doing just fine today. You are taking steps. You are supporting her. And you are facing the issue as best you can TODAY.

[denny57]

But many of these folks have lived through hell and back with their spouses for years. For them, that was a good decision for THEM.

Practicing the 12 steps has taught me not to speak for others. I was never "for" divorce and, actually, I personally don't see anyone here urging it.

[TTOSBT]

I definitely do not mean to speak for anyone else. I apologize if it came across that way.

[bookwyrm]

I recommend the book 'Under the Influence'. I found it to be extremely useful in describing all the different stages of alcoholism. It goes through the physiological and psychological changes in the different stages of alcoholism and should be able to answer some of your questions about this disease.

[Bernadette]

Hey sorry, formychildren-- didn't mean to hijack your tnread-- I guess I'm the one who spoke maybe too positively about divorce?

I apologize and as I said in my post I certainly am not a champion of divorce.

I really brought it up in response to Techie's post about her children suffering because of "divorce."

I just wanted to remind everyine that children suffer in the alcoholic/codie dynamic marriage as well and it is good to be aware of that and not in denial.

Obviously there are ways for kids/teens to learn to cope with having an actively alcoholic parent in an intact family. If the non-alcoholic parent is very healthy and realistic and the kids can speak their minds and get help - it's just not often the case.

I have memories from a very young age (starting in 1st grade) of my father's drinking. And of my mother's covering up for him and enabling him and all around codependent behavior. And the drama and denial only got worse as I got older. The hypocrisy nearly drove me mad. There was no one around to be in REALITY with me or my siblings.

Formychildren- you've found a good place here - and I was not advocating divorce for anyone - I simply don't think it has to be looked at as some kind of nuclear destruction. As I told my children - this is not the worst thing that could happen to us!! Much good comes out of divorce - and some folks have an irrational fear of it when in fact it is a legal and often sane decision.

I did not mean to alarm or offend. And I agree w/ Bookwyrm Under the influence is a great book for understanding the reality of what alcohol is doing to the brain and body and what alcoholism is.

Peace-
B.

[ToughChoices]

Originally Posted by formychildren

I don't mean to sound like I'm in denial, I'm not. But, offering up divorce as a quick and easy solution truly got to me.

Divorce is not a quick and easy solution.
There is no quick and easy solution.
I really didn't mean to imply that at all.

When my husband's drinking problem first became apparent, I was extremely sympathetic. I wanted to help.
Still, in spite of my best efforts, his drinking escalated.
I was SO angry - he endangered our child, he lied and missed work.

At one point I really thought that just kicking him to the curb and calling it a day was my very best option. I thought he was causing all the problems in my life, and if I could just get a divorce, I could go back to being alright.

I have learned better.

He is not the source of my pain (although a few problems do originate in his general direction), and I had to learn how to help myself while my husband struggled through his own brand of hell.

I love my spouse, and I am still married. We had an excellent and loving relationship before alcohlism entered the picture, and there's still an intense connection between us. We are currently living apart as I cannot live with his drinking, and he is unable to live without it. We may need to divorce, but
I do not take marriage or divorce lightly. I am attempting to explore all of my options before that step is taken.

I just want you to know how very similar your story is to mine. How much I questioned if he was truly an alcoholic, and how often I wondered if he was enjoying the time (without alcohol) we spent with friends.

You sound like a loving, honorable man.
I wish you the very best.

-TC

[shellygirl]

As someone who recently got divorced I would just like to say that I think you are in a totally different place than I was. I'm probably a lot older, our children are almost grown and my husband was cheating on me - totally different situation than yours. The beauty of coming here for support is that we all have different stories, different situations and different lives but we have one thing in common. That one thing ties us together and bonds us in a way that only we understand. Always know you can come here and talk to us because sometimes this is all we have. No question or comment is silly or out of line because we have been there. When I went to my first Al anon meeting 22 years ago I asked them when they were going to tell me how I could get my fiance to quit drinking? Love your wife, enjoy your family...keep coming back, try to go to meetings, read. We are with you!!

[Silverberry1331]

Hi Formychildren,

I understand your sentiments. For me, I am separated from my husband. This was something I personally would have never imagined, and it is only due to the circumstance of my situation that things are like this. Infidelity and other factors contributed. However, it was a very personal, unique decision.

Although we share a common thread: we are all affected by someone's drinking...each way it manifests is unique. Some have live with violent alcoholics. Others, like mine, have depressive alcoholics. Some come home and find their alcoholic passed out on the floor. Others had absolutely no idea there was even drinking until it came to a crisis. Some people have a loving relationship with their alcoholic and others can't stand the sight of theirs. Each situation is unique and each one is handled different.

Therefore, I give you the ultimate saying from Al Anon: Take what you like and leave the rest...Take the meat, and leave the bones. Whatever encourages you, nourishes you, then take it. Whatever is not useful, doesn't apply, or just doesn't sit well, leave it where you found it, and know that it the advice given was done so in love, but just wasn't applicable.

How can you tell if your wife is an alcoholic? That is something you will conclude in your own time. Al Anon suggests you read up on the disease as much as you can. You can never really learn enough. Keep learning.

In the meantime, keep coming back. With the challenges you are facing right now, it is a good support group, and in very few places can such a truly caring, selfless group can be found. I think this board brings out the best in each one of us, because here is one of the few places we can be real without fear. Even if you come on as what I call a ghost (AKA not logged in, but as a guest). Keep coming back.

In time, with guidance and your higher power, you will find your way. Each of us are praying for the health, happiness, love, peace, sobriety, and success for you, your wife, and your babies. Hope you weekend is full of blessings....