Ago

I see a lot of posts of people asking about boundaries, I read the sticky about "signs of crossed boundaries" I see people posting that ignore and cross boundaries, I see a lot of confusion about what boundaries are, so I thought I would start a thread about setting your own boundaries, successful stories thereof, unsuccessful stories, and examples of respecting and/or crossing other peoples boundaries.

I will start with a few examples from my own experience:

1) My XAGF was just beginning to get sober when she drank and lied to me about it. I stated "I'm sorry that you felt you had to lie to me about it, When you lie to me I have trouble believing you, and I don't want this in my life or relationship any more". She felt "attacked" and that I was "threatening the relationship" and I was crossing a boundary by "questioning her integrity" :wtf2

opinion 1) setting a boundary for yourself is NOT "crossing someone else's boundary" Setting a boundary in "someone else's "yard" is not a boundary

2) My XAGF was being distant and stated she was having childhood issues and asked for "space" I went home and saw she had "blocked" me from viewing her photos from her "social site" and had added a new man as a friend. This felt like "old behavior" on her part (I had seen all this before immediately prior to previous breakups) I ended up calling her, texting her, and finally using an IM to get ahold of her. Now for whatever reason, and I truly believe they were valid and pertinent, I didn't respect her boundary and crossed it.

Opinion 2) it's NOT OK to cross someone's boundary for ANY reason, a boundary is a boundary, however, healthy people set healthy boundaries, there are definitely two parts here, however, to stick strictly to my part, I crossed that boundary

3) Since I have moved back, I have encountered "judgment" for drinking from some of my old friends in the program, not a lot, some of it took the form of humor, but it was hurtful. I was talking to my XRAGFBFF today, telling her about the last few nights where I have pulled these people aside and said, "Look, it's NOT OK for me for you to call me "newcomer", I have 7 months, it's NOT OK to make fun of me and (blah blah blah)" and she made an interesting observation "I see a pattern here, you're beginning to establish healthy boundaries again and not let people put you down Andrew, that's healthy. I bet every one of those people "owned their part" and apologized and gave you a hug. The last few years people have been walking all over you and denying it, until you finally began letting them, and now, you are beginning too get healthy and set boundaries, it's not OK for people to say hurtful things to you anymore, congratulations. "

I hadn't even seen it like that

3) When you are healthy, you begin setting healthy boundaries, and healthy people in your life respect them, and if you are healthy, you can enforce those boundaries in a healthy non confrontational way.

Anyhow, this has been "rattling around in my can" all morning, can you guys help out with this thread? share experience, strength and Hope, and even ask questions, and maybe, if we get enough examples/stories, and ESH we can make a sticky and have a more comprehensive of what a "healthy boundary" looks like?

sailorjohn

A little confused about the acronym, your friend is the AXGF, correct?
In my expericence, when confronted, and I know I've done it myself, the first reaction is to attack, take the focus off my behavior. I think the key is not to get drawn into the made-up drama. I'm not very good at phrasing the words so that the focus is on me, rather than the other, will get better at it with time.

Ago

I have a relationship that just ended, I call her the XAGF

I have a very close friend I dated for years that I talk to daily now. I call her my XRAGFBFF, we have been friends for maybe 15 years, dated for 7 of those, have been apart for maybe 2 years.

ex recovered alcoholic girlfriend best female friend

to add to the confusion, they both have the same name and nearly do the same thing for a living, I have been absolutely forbidden to date another woman named T----- by my friends

anyway, back on topic, more boundary stories guys

isitme

This is my biggest stuggle as well. I intend to set boundaries and make them very clear but I think what I end up doing seems more like an attack, ultimatum or threat. I don't mean it to be that way, and I try to re-word it's just a hard pattern to break. Especailly when you have such limited time to actually talk to your A. There is never a good time to bring anything up so most of it comes out in anger or while the boundary is being broken. I don't have to courage to bring up all of the awful things he does when he's not doing them. I don't want to get it started.. KWIM?

I'm slowly getting better at having personal boundaries, I just haven't sat down and spelled them out to him. However, I can already see that because of his abusive ways (not just drinking) that it's going to be a very hard bridge to cross and it may not work at all.

GiveLove

Here's a less dramatic boundary, if it helps to have a manageable-sized example:

We have an agreement in my house: We often do things in the kitchen together, but sometimes one of us takes the initiative and makes dinner. The rule says this: If I cook us a meal, you get to clean up afterwards. If YOU cook us a meal, I get to clean up.

This keeps someone from having to spend two hours in the kitchen while the other puts his/her feet up.

Sometimes, my darling SO would not hold up his end of the bargain. Things would sit there, plates would congeal, pans crust over. I'd say something, and it would get fixed, but the next time it would happen again.

I finally made a boundary: 1) If you don't do your share, I'm not going to sigh and b***h and do it myself. It's all going to sit there until the place starts to smell. I don't care; I have a respirator. 2) If we have an incident like this again, I'm not cooking for us for a month. We can fend for ourselves for dinner, or I'll eat on my way home from work at my favorite cafe, and you're on your own.

There's no anger in me as I state that to him. I shrug, explain how I feel, and say what I'm going to do or not do. He's free to do as he likes, but there will be repercussions he might not enjoy.

We've only had to go through that once (testing me, no doubt)

Anybody want to come over for dinner?

lizw

I know for myself that when I began attending Al Anon I used to hear the slogan 'there's a difference between a victim and a volunteer'.

I have always understood this to mean, that as a child I was a victim but as an adult I was more like a volunteer because I choose to stay in sick relationships, friendships and/or otherwise.

I quickly had to let go of the idea that 'people walked all over me' because I was the one lying down!

So boundaries for me are about taking care of myself and keeping the focus on myself, they are not a tool I use to manipulate others to my will or as a way of controlling another.

I.e. If I am in a situation and feel I am being abused, I leave the situation. What the other person chooses to do about me leaving is none of my business. They may say sorry and ask me to return and amend their behaviour or they may not.

I.e. I don't speak on the phone after a certain time at night, so rather than answer the phone and have to tell people this, again and again then get upset with them, I don't answer the phone.

Boundaries make my life less complicated and encourage me to practise new behaviour.

That's my ESH

Ago

Good stuff, OK, so one thing I am seeing is people aren't sure how to set up boundaries in a non confrontational manner, my ESH is,

One of the things I found helpful to setting boundaries was reading something called "fighting fair", it's all about using "I" messages, and for me, "I feel" being the most effective, I can argue with how you think, but I can't argue with how you feel.

Example, years ago I was in couples counseling/therapy and my GF said "yadda yadda blah blah and it upsets me"

the therapist said, "That's right"

I was outraged and indignant, and I responded with, "Blah blah yadda yadda" (my version of said events, clearly proving she was "wrong")

The therapist said, "that's right too"

She said, "our feelings were our feelings, and our perception of the events were our reality, that's what we saw and how we saw it"

I was ...flabbergasted...so now, If I have one view of a situation, and you have another, you aren't necessarily "wrong" and since then that has been one of the most important things I ever learned.

So we can both be upset, we can both have a different "take" on what happened but We can both be "right" if we are dealing with feelings.

When you ______ I feel ___________

By the way, this has only been effective for me if I was involved with a healthy person, it seems a hard concept to understand for someone who is "defended" all the time and has an absolute inability to "own their part" in a situation, and as a concept it's easily manipulated.

brb looking for a copy of "Fighting Fair"

here's one version:

Fights happen when we feel threatened about something that is important to us. Otherwise with the painfulness of conflict, we would be willing to let go of the issue. Some of our values, attitudes or possessions are challenged making us feel that our basic self esteem is threatened. We take a defensive stand and come out swinging. Unfortunately few of us know how to fight in a productive way. We have learned rules for fighting from those people who did not know how to express themselves in constructive ways--our parents. When we are challenged, we often revert back to our little child self, hurt and angry. We simply perpetuate poor communication habits because we do not know how to do anything different.

But wait! Research and family systems theory to the rescue! Here is what current psychology has to say about approaching the tricky problem of getting what you want without beating up yourself and your mate. Here are some ideas that will help you reduce heated arguments and stay on the track of figuring out what will be the best for both of you. Here are some rules for fair fighting.

* Don't let things fester inside. Anger must be expressed or it will build up. Schedule arguments ahead of time when you feel the pressure building up. Agree before hand that there are some things that you can disagree on (opinions on politics, personal interests and beliefs.) Other things must be worked through (how to raise the children, spend money, how you would like to be treated, etc..) Determine which category your topic falls in.

* Chose a time when you will not be distracted by family members, guests or television and when you both are relatively relaxed. Sit face to face and keep eye contact at the same level. Make a contract to discuss the issue of concern only and agree to avoid those ways of acting that sabotage problem solving. Make a commitment to use the rules of fair fighting.

* Express what is going on to the best of your ability. Talk feelings. Tell the person how you feel about what is going on. Feeling first, solutions later. Get your point across in a constructive way by owning how you feel about the topic. Use the formula sentence, When you _____, I feel ____ . This simple statement allows you to take responsibility for your own feelings and behavior without blaming the other person.

Learning to use this feeling statement to express your emotions helps you stay in the present and keeps you real. Practice this sentence over and over in times when you are not angry so that it becomes part of your vocabulary. Sharing of feelings increases intimacy. Avoid sentences that begin with You always.... Don't tell the other person what they always do in a blaming way, but focus on what you want to have happen. Keep coming back to the I feel formula that helps you own your own feelings. Talk feelings, talk feelings, talk feelings!

* Allow the other person's feelings to come out. Do not discount the other person's feelings by saying, You should not feel that way. All feelings of anger, disgust, jealously, despair, etc. are human and need to be expressed. Bottled up feelings that are uncomfortable will only serve to make the problem worse as resentment and bitterness increase.

* Show the other person that you really heard what he or she said. Repeat back what the other person just said. Say I heard that you said ______ and what I feel about that is __________. Listen for the feelings of hurt and threat behind their statements. Ask the other person for clarification if you do not understand what they are saying.

* Take turns talking. No monologues allowed. You should be able to make your point in less than a minute or two. Any longer turns into a lecture and You always or you should ____ which are blaming statements. Make sure the other person is listening. Only one person should speak at a time. Healthy conversation is like playing toss and catch. One person speaks and one person listens. Go back and forth with the conversational ball. Take turns talking.

* Stick to the topic. Do not bring in other sore issues. Agree to discuss the pertinent topic only saying, We are discussing______, not ________ Watch for ways you get off the track. Keep coming back to the issue under discussion.

* Stop using techniques that turn up the heat and move you both away from problem solving. Blaming, name calling, threatening, foul language and sarcasm decrease intimacy. Young children believe what they hear their parents saying. They are devastated when they overhear these forms of verbal abuse. These ways of communicating cut down on the possibility of your getting what you want out of the argument.

Take out blame statements and name calling. No problem is ever solved by telling the other person how bad they are. Name calling causes the person to revert back to their behavior and feelings they had as a little child when their parents scolded them. It either renders them helpless or makes them more angry. Name calling, criticism and blaming only perpetuate the problem.

Watch your use of cursing. Cursing adds negative energy to the confrontation placing the other person in danger of feeling shame. Cuss words are like waving a red flag at a bull and increase the heat of the argument. Know that your use of cuss works only shuts the other person down and that they feel the need to defend themselves further.

Do not make empty threats. Do not threaten to leave the relationship or order the other person to get out unless you really mean it. Threatening to break up the relationship only brings up more fear and defensiveness in the other person.

Stop using statements of sarcasm. Sarcasm is a learned habit of moving away from problem solving. Sarcasm is a form of dishonesty as you say one thing but mean another. It is a technique of distraction moving away from the issue at hand.

*Watch for ways you withdraw from the argument. Withdrawal from conflict is one of the most common reasons for causing a relationship to fail. Nothing is ever solved by leaving the issue hanging and both partners are left in feelings of hopelessness due to lack of closure.

The typical pattern is that men withdrawal and women push for more discussion. Another typical pattern is that women become compliant. They do not carry the topic through to closure but give up because feelings of helplessness and what's the use creep in.

* Schedule breathing breaks, or set a timer for every two or three minutes for a breathing break. During this time do not think of the argument and what you want to say. Think of being calm and relaxed. Say to yourself I respect my partner and his or her opinions. I respect myself and my opinions. When you start to become confused or upset, breathe deeply from your diaphragm to bring in more energy and stay centered.

*Watch your need to be right and win. Remember the quote from The Course In Miracles, Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy. Tell the other person what you do want. Remember that you won't always get it but you need to express what you feel is best for you. Keep coming back to what you want but be ready to compromise. Stand firm only on those decisions which compromise your integrity as a person.

*Offer compromises. Stop investing in winning and using power plays and figure out what is really important to you. Tell the other person what you will give up if they give up something of value to them. Keep the negotiation open. Stop every five minutes to sum up what you do agree on and note where the disagreements still lie.

Make notes if necessary. Remind yourself and your partner about the importance of fighting fairly. See how you respond and cope when you feel threatened.

* Observe your patterns of coping with conflict by becoming compliant, using blame or withdrawing. Observe how you go for the jugular vein of the other person in attempts to get your way. Note how you are willing to attack your partner's vulnerable areas and make the conscious choice to stop doing this. Challenge yourself to change your own pattern of dysfunctional communication. When you slip off into changing the topic, name calling, sarcasm, withdrawal or compliance, state it to you partner, Look, I found myself doing _____. Make a commitment to break the dysfunctional pattern and stick to the positive ways of communicating. Keep coming back to the topic. Bring conflict back to the expressing of feelings level and willingness to negotiate.

These are the basic rules for staying clean while you disagree with someone. Now go to your corners and come out fighting! Fair fighting only!

Hold practice sessions with your partner to learn these stick to the topic and fight fair rules. Practice on topics that are not highly emotionally involved for both of you. Focus on improving your communication style instead of trying to win fights. Remember you, like everyone else, have had years of practice in the ways of dysfunctional communication. Keep asking yourself, Do I want to increase intimacy with my partner or do I want to win? What do I really want? Put your energy into problem solving at all times. Put your energy into learning about yourself and your partner.

When the discussion is over, evaluate yourself on how you did. Don't be a critical judge about your performance. Remember that you are learning new ways of acting. Be gentle with yourself. Give yourself credit for every time you remembered to fight fair. Make a contract with yourself on areas that you still need to change. Learning to fight fair is about self responsibility!

If you hear your parents speak through your voice when you are upset, you may be projecting your parents style of fighting on your mate. Projection is a style of slipping back into the past because of unresolved childhood issues. When you project, you confuse unresolved anger felt at your parents with your mate. There are techniques of hypnosis that can help you break projecting your anger at your parent on your current partner. If you have difficulty following these rules and your anger is highly irrational or so highly threatened by conflict that you avoid it at any costs, then you are operating out of the dictates of the unconscious mind. If applying these fair fighting techniques on your own does not work, then you may need some professional help to help you break old behavior patterns that stem from childhood.

Recent research shows that couples break up because they do not know how to resolve their differences through communication. Hostility only breeds more hostility. Venting the negative emotions may clear the air temporarily, but it does not solve the underlying problem and serves to make it worse. Backing away from the conflict and ignoring it only sends each partner into secretiveness, withdraw and isolation. The message becomes clear--the couple that fights together stays together happily only if they use the techniques of conflict resolution.

Becoming an observer of yourself during times of confrontation can give your realms of information about your defensiveness. Defensiveness is only a signal that you need to learn about how you protect yourself when you are threatened. You can learn about yourself and your patterns of coping with threat and ways to stay present and centered during disagreements. Bringing a problem to resolution and closure through continued discussion and compromise is an honorable acts it shows respect for the needs of both partners. Learning to fight fair and keep communication open can be an opportunity for growth for you as an individual and can increase the intimacy between you and your partner.

TooMuch4TooLong

This should be a sticky.

sailorjohn

I always get a little thrown when the X is in front of the A, implying an ex-alcoholic, which we all know is impossible. Seems to be the custom in this forum though.

YellowRed

I didn't set enough boundaries early on in my relationship with STBXAH. After a while I don't think I knew where I ended and he began. I dont think this was healthy. As I got older, I became more independent, and once I started going to Al-Anon, started to see that I needed to work on who and what I was.

I also found it difficult to set boundaries without it sounding threatening/aggressive.

My therapist gave me some great advice though: if you are going to set consequences for crossing a boundary with an A, you had better be prepared to carry out and live with those consequences. As generally know how to overstep the boundaries and when you don't carry through the consequences... well, good luck to you. You just played right into their hands (and the codie thing).

In the end I decided I needed to set a couple of very simple and non-negotiable boundaries for myself. i had three things which were absolute deal breakers for me. I thought I'd start there and work from that if those were respected. They were so fundamental to me, I realy didn't think they'd be overstepped.

Knowing they were fundamental to me, I was prepared to divorce if they were overstepped. I actually put it in an email to my stbxAH. He understood it and we had a discussion about it; including the potential consequences. It was really helpful for me to have really thought about whether I'd follow through and not to set 'threat'-type consequences that I might not carry out.

A month later, two of the three had been overstepped. I followed through and filed for divorce.

Having thought it through beforehand and clearly set out the boundaries and te consequences, and been comfortable with them for myself, made walking away much clearer and easier for me (I didn't have that classic codie self doubt about the decision, especially becasue I could see what I'd written and it was very very clear). Since then, the third one has been crossed as well.

I need to get better at setting boundaries. I do think it's especially difficult with an A (mine just seemed to approach boundaries as a challenge or taunt), especially given that it's sometimes difficult to have any kind of rational conversation with them. For things which are really serious though, I found that having it in writing helped focus and helped me afterwards.

DesertEyes

Done stickied under "Classic Reading"

Mike

Ago

a great quote from http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...eply&p=1935291 that I think is really helpful about what a boundary is and isn't

Lilyflower

I was inspired by Ago's post with all that fab information about conflict resolution, this has been something I have been working on alot recently, and typically when you begin to focus on one area or aspect, suddenly everything seems to revolve or relate to it!

That said, I found this article on line on one of my favourite sites Inner Bonding: Relationships, Relationship Help and Advice, Personal and Spiritual Growth, Parenting Advice .....

''There are people that thrive in conflict. They take any opportunity no matter how small it is to vent and unload their problems. Their story is always the same. They are good but somehow life treats them unfairly. I belonged to the other group that is conflict phobic and would do anything to avoid it. Being highly sensitive I sensed even the slightest sign of another person's upset so I had to prevent disaster before it would happen. This is why I become a caretaker.

But there is a point in person's life when the cup gets full and there is no way another drop can get in. Old defenses and old behavior stop working, and there are two choices: to either get sick or to grow. I still have to meet a person who woke up one day and decided to embrace the healing journey. Usually, life puts us in position that we have no other choice. It is in those moments that some doors will open and we will learn something that is extremely valuable for our personal growth. This is how I got introduced to inner bonding.

Most of my early Inner Bonding was around the fact that I was a loser in any conflict. It is not only that the other people blamed me for anything that went wrong in their life, but also my wounded self would do the same. She would give me a lesson what I did or did not do, and what I was supposed to do. She would insist on perfection by giving me a "do it perfect list", and then simply abandoned me.

Looking into all lies and false beliefs that I had around conflict was very scary. Although I never got angry it turned out my child was very, very mad at me. I learned that I always assumed that I was wrong and the other person was right. I endured the other person's venting and blaming. I always found an excuse for inexcusable behavior, had compassion for others but zero compassion for myself. My biggest fears were fears of rejection and abandonment. I constantly lost myself but did not want to loose the other person. Well, that was about to change.

Doing small loving actions had a huge impact. One day I found myself listening to another person's usual venting and just said I am not willing to listen to that. To be honest I was very surprised that I've said that, given my history of not rocking the boat. Of course I was told it was my imagination - that there wasn't any dumping. The person used the same behavior that always worked to change my mind, but this time it simply did not work. I ended the conversation saying that I am not available for any negativity now and in the future. How my message got across I did not know, but it did. From that day on I was treated with respect. It really puzzled me because I worked so hard on my communication skills so that I can be heard and understood but always failed. So I asked my guide what happened. The answer was very short: You are not ready for an explanation. I did try to get a little bit of info but no luck.

As my Inner Bonding progressed I accepted that I am the only one responsible for my feelings, and have no control over another person's behavior. I become less conflict phobic. I took any opportunity to learn about my false beliefs, and myself. Then there was Eureka! I learned that if an interaction is very negative I can walk away, and as a matter of fact that is the most loving thing to do. It was a big AHA moment as something like that never occurred to me, and I ever saw anybody doing it. So I was eager to put it into practice. But I had no luck. For over a year there was no major conflict in my life.

A couple of months ago I got assigned to a project that had all the signs it is going to be a troubled one. Not a single person on that project was happy as the design kept constantly changing. I followed my guide's advice and did what I could do. But my part required work with a colleague from the other team. This was her first project and I did notice that she loves drama. One day I went and asked her what was the best way that we can integrate both parts of the project to meet atight deadline. She put hands on her hips and told me: Well, the other team gave me a hard time so why it should be easy for you? I looked at her, sensed all the negativity that just came out and walked away. Communicating with her was extremely difficult as any time I asked about something she would say "but what about..." and then list non-related issues. If I said I had a problem she would immediately reply that it was nothing comparing to her problems. She took any opportunity to vent her negativity and each time I walked away. We discussed design so many times to the point that I was getting sick of it. Any of my requests for something was met with rolling eyes, and the words "You are too demanding."

It was on my last day at work before vacation when I rushed to finish something when she came and told me that we haven't discussed a particular requirement. It was the same issue that we talked about but she could not keep her attention span for a split second (it turned out this was the piece that she could not deliver on time but it would be nice to put some blame on me). I stood up and said: "Give me a break!" I saw her face blushing and she was taken aback by my reaction. Enough is enough. Again I walked away.

I was not looking forward to going back to work after the vacation. She managed to push my buttons quite a few times and I did react. My wounded self was concerned as I was not being nice any more. She was telling me: "What are people going to think of you?" I hugged her, acknowledged her concern but did not try to be nice. Things were about to escalate.

In one of the conversations as I started to answer her question she kept jumping from one topic to the other. I stopped and told her that it was not ok. She rolled her eyes again, crossed her hands over the chest, got ready for a fight, and told me that I am difficult to talk with. We agreed that there was a communication issue and went to discuss it in the meeting room.

As we sat down she said: "You are so rude and cruel. Nobody treated me the way you did. You walked away without a single word so many times. It never happened in my life. I had sleepless nights and I feel very sick. She was on the edge to start to cry.

I let her talk. A part of me who was calmly observing the whole situation said: This is a poor me drama. A wave of blame hit me but I did not blink, and I did not believe it even for a split second. I told her that I also find that we have a huge communication issue and offered her to talk to our manager. Maybe we do not need to work together. No! No! She wanted to find a way to work with me and again blamed me for her distress.

This is when I explained that I walked away any time when she was negative, and I will walk away in the future as well. I told her that I do expect her to listen and be present when I am answering her questions instead of jumping from topic to topic. I was tempted to tell her that she needed to look at what else was causing her insomnia besides me. If I were her only problem in life she would be sleeping like baby. But my guide was shaking her head as no. So I just told her that I was not responsible for her sleepless nights and she was causing them. This totally confused her.

As I sat there and she attempted to blame me and induce guilt on me I saw all the hooks that she was throwing at me hoping that I will engage into conflict. I just repeated what I was not willing to tolerate. She was not happy at all the way our conversation ended. She repeated the whole blame story again, and mumbled: "Ok I need to look at my tension."

As I was going to my desk a part of me said: I do not like her. I do not like to be treated that way. That was the first time in my life that I was able to tell that I do not like someone and I do not want to be around that person. My mission in life was to be liked and accepted by everybody. And I really mean everybody.

Surprisingly I was very calm that day, but the next morning I woke up furious. I quickly found out that my colleague's behavior was exactly the same as what my mother did to me all my life. Somehow her distress was always my fault. I spend my whole life trying to become good girl and it did not help. She always found a reason to blame me. That morning I clearly saw the truth: I was an amazing kid but there was nobody to protect me from a totally unconscious adult. My loving adult was outraged. She cannot change the past but will take care of my inner child now.

I did not have any expectations how my colleague will behave. But I was about to be again pleasantly surprised. She calmed down, came and asked specific question (listened to the answer) and was very cooperative for the rest of the project. Even some problems were solved without any drama.

Yet again I was totally puzzled and asked my guide if there was anything that she would like to share with me. This time Ana was very chatty and here is what she said.

"If you strip away all defenses or offenses that humans use during the conflict, you will find just one thing - The Need To Control. Conflict is only possible when both sides are fighting over control. They are on the same level. It does not matter how much one insists that he or she is better then the other. Conflict is not possible when one person does not want to control. You just told her what is not acceptable for you without any explanation and expectation of what she needs to do. You did not point out that anything was wrong with her (this is what really ignites conflicts). Instead you just told the facts and stuck to them. You were on a different level - that is why her blame could not reach you. However there was a moment when you wanted to tell her to look for other reasons of her insomnia (by the way she knows that you are not the only one). If you did that you would have dropped on her level and there would have been conflict, because you would try to control her point of view. This is the most common mistake. When she came the next day you did not try to make her life miserable and did not do tit for tat. You respected yourself so she is going to respect you as well.

By Ivanka Jankovic
September 28, 2008"

This lady's in struggles with everyone liking her, fear of conflict and inability to come out feeling a winner, just mirrors my journey. I hope I find that I can deal as well with conflict next time it arrives, as she did!

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ago

/bump for thehopefulwife

vegibean

Manipulation on her part, I think you did great!!!

How do you cross something when someone is lying to you? She got busted, to me this is more manipulation in attempt to get you to back off so she can keep doing what she's doing.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good job Andrew. I would say that I think you've got it!!!

Stubborn1

excellant post. I love this and haven't read all the way through yet and have learned so much. I want to make bumper stickers. lol

Are you a victim or volenteer. I love that.

Ago

See, this is where it gets tricky, for me, the point is to "stay on my own side of the street" and "respect boundaries no matter what"

The reason I used that as an example, is to illustrate that point exactly, a boundary is a boundary is a boundary, If "you" "act out" or "mess up" that still doesn't give "me" permission to cross your boundaries, a boundary is a boundary is a boundary

If she starts name calling and being abusive for example, I could walk away, therefore respecting a boundary I set for myself, or I could engage and name call back, which then "gave" her ammo to finger point and blame that I was "abusive"

Healthy Behavior and Boundaries are there to protect me on many levels, not the least of which keeps me on my own side of the street, therefore not "engaging" therefore not acting out.

there was a separate issue there in that it "appeared" that she could have possibly been engaging in old behavior or acting out, she asked for time/space and I didn't respect that, very closely intertwined but unrelated, so by the time I did get ahold of her she was so bent about me "crossing her boundary" and not "respecting her space" I never really did get to find out who "Pronbob Spongepants" was as her new friend on Myspace...but since I HAD crossed her boundary she was able to "point the finger" and "make me the villain" follow?

For me, the proper way would have been to wait, allow her her space while I made a decision on whether this is behavior I want in my life.

That way, when I did bring it up, since I respected her space, stayed on my side of the street, the ensuing conversation would have been much clearer for me, since by crossong that boundary, all it did was give her ammo to "attack me" with.

I heard about how I "wronged her" by "crossing her boundary" no less then fifty times until it became the issue, not Pronbob Spongepants.

A lot of these tools are there to protect me in ways that aren't instantly obvious.

thehopefulwife

When I first came here, I read everything. I went through almost every page because I was so grateful to have found such a site and such a wealth of information.

But of course, reading so much in such a short period of time, I obviously couldn't retain all of it. Thanks for the reminder that the stickies are for everyone, at any time, not just for newcomers.

And the shares to the thread I had posted are much appreciated too. Thanks a lot to evryone for all the support.

Hope

Kimmieh

There are boundaries that are life-saving and there are boundaries that are sanity-saving. I have a boundary that is non-negotiable with addicts AND non-addicts: we will use condoms until we have been together for a while, have lived together for a while, and have gone to get tested for every STD on the planet together and are presented the results together.

If a potential partner does not want to meet my demands (and that is what they are) it's over. I find this especially crucial when being with an addict because being drunk or high impacts the choices we make (although ironically my ABF is the first guy of whom I am sure he does not cheat).

I don't know if this really fits this thread, but it's an example of how a boundary is there to protect me and not to control him.

Please be safe.

Ago

LTD's thread about "Deal Breakers" just got bumped, I was reading it and it got me thinking about Boundaries.

I am having "boundary enforcement" issues in about every area of my life, I was talking to a therapist/counselor yesterday and she made some interesting observations.

One of my boundary issues is at work, I set it, it holds for maybe a week or two, then it happens again, I have to "reset it", I am getting amazingly frustrated with this situation, I stand there and have to repeat myself over and over, I do what I can to protect myself, but this guy holds my pay as manipulation to try to get me to work longer hours for the same pay (I get paid by the day) and he keeps "defaulting" to the lowest of three day rates, regardless of how hard/long the day is. We set three "rates" super easy, normal, and "big wood"....anyhow, amazingly frustrating to have to fight for my money every single week.

As an accomplished "codie" himself, with an actively drug using/ drinking Bi-polar Wife, this guy is the master passive aggressive manipulator.

He'll hold off paying me, saying the money is at "The Shop" or "The Bank" then an hour later pull it out of his pocket, or We'll schedule a job for two days, I'll go like a bat out of hell, get it nearly done in one day, and he'll say "If you don't finish, we don't get paid."

He'll do this on Fridays, or days I'm scheduled to get on an airplane in a few hours

Pi$$es me off to no end.

His other trick, is to schedule a one day job, get me started, then take half my crew for the full day, and still expect us to complete a full day job with half a crew, causing all of us to have to bust our hump twice as hard....once again, saying, if you don't finish, we don't get paid.....

So here I am being a good codie at work again, jumping through hoops because this man is in financial difficulty because his wife is getting geeked up and trying to outspend Paris Hilton, causing him to make unsound business decisions and push his crew harder to cover his wifes excesses.

Quite a lesson....

Sponsor and support group says flat out get another job. Period.

I try to be grateful I am even working in this economy right now, and the truth is, at the end of the day, I'm getting paid VERY well, it's just 100-150 less a week then I think it's going to be, he keeps skimming and arguing about each day because he is in financial difficulty (maybe because his wife keeps stealing money from his business account and buying 5,000 dollar jackets, she spent 13k in one week recently.)

Anyhow, this counselor pointed out that people with low self esteem work waaay harder then those around them in order to bolster their self esteem....

I had just been telling her how in many cases by just working like a madman, I am able to get what was scheduled for two days done in one day (usually at the cost of some soft tissue damage to me at the very least, always at the cost of a the following day being one of bedrest all day) and he'd still pay me the lowest possible wage

interesting...

She also pointed out we were both coming from a place of "fear of financial insecurity"....

Anyway, "enforcing boundaries" is on my plate for a number of reasons I believe, one is as my self esteem returns I am finding behaviors I used to find acceptable, unacceptable.

Another reason I think I am having this lesson, is because I never learned it, not really, What I had done is shrink my world, I started my own company, only hired guys I really respected, only took clients I really respected (I would "fire" clients during my "estimate" constantly, the first hint of "what can I get for free" and I would refer them to a competitor) and I shrunk my pool of people I interacted with to maybe a half dozen, and all of them had over 15 years of sobriety at least, they all had the necessary "life skills' to interact comfortably with for any occasion.

The last few years have taught me the world is full of sick people, a$$holes, and people that will take advantage of you if they can (this includes my family) (not everybody is like that, that sounds really negative, it's not, I'm just saying those people are out there) SO what I need to learn how to do is set and enforce boundaries in such a way as to navigate these situations without letting it impact me adversely.

I'm really tired of being frustrated and angry.

It's improved unimaginably since I moved away from my family and ditched whatsername, but I'm beginning to get to the point where I don't want it at all anymore, it doesn't serve anybody, least of all me.

If I thought I could find another job quickly I would walk away in a NY mimute (I will start looking next week after I finish moving)

Anyhow...yeah....enforcing boundaries.