It's "the disease"....

[Godhelpme]

Oftentimes we hear, "It's the disease talking" or "It's the disease making him / her do that" in reference to something the alcoholic has said and/or done.

Years ago when I first heard that, I thought it was implying that I should dismiss whatever my A said or did as if "He can't help it, it's "the disease". He didn't mean it, doesn't believe it, doesn't really think that way, it's the "disease"." Somehow I took away from that that his "disease" abdicated him from the responsibility I felt he had to treat me with respect.

I found it difficult at best to trust "it was the disease" talking. Afterall, it was HIS lips moving, HIS voice I heard, HIS face I saw when he said it.

I used to believe there was a little truth in everything we said...therefore, it wasn't JUST the "disease" speaking. He must surely feel that way about me and the alcohol simply made it easier for him to speak his mind.

I'll never know where he stops and his "disease" starts. Over the years the two have melded for me and he's become one with his alcoholism.

Equally, I no longer care what he says, thinks, does etc.

And yet.....the years of hearing his disease speak to me has taken a toll on my self-esteem.

I quickly dismiss kind, loving words from others that attempt to dispell his vemenous poison. And I take the irrational BS from a drunk as the Gospel.

The effects of the insanity are far-reaching and long-lasting.

~GodHelpMe

[newenglandgirl]

Originally Posted by Godhelpme

I'll never know where he stops and his "disease" starts. Over the years the two have melded for me and he's become one with his alcoholism.

wow. this really hits home for me.

Godhelpme - you have so much insight and wisdom - keep seeking the support you deserve and need - thinking of you.

[dollydo]

I so agree, I could never figure it out. I wasn't use to trying to figure out what was and was not the truth.

Then I just assumed every time he opened his mouth he was lying..made it alot easier for me.

[WantsOut]

My exAH had many problems, but respecting me was not one of them. Even wasted he always treated me well and never verbally abused me.

Being an alcoholic is not the only thing these people are - it's just a part of them. They are whole people too. Maybe on top of being drunks they are verbally abusive jerks who enjoy the feeling of power they get when they crush the women who love them. But understand that they are two different things, not related. Not every drunk is an abusive *******. It's not the disease. And that doesn't make the crap he said to you true either, it just means he was trying to hurt you and you were giving him a pass.

I say the time for passes is over.

[newenglandgirl]

It's painful for me to face the possible reality that my AH's "Dr.Jeckel" (his "bad side") is really him.

[WantsOut]

I know, hon. I don't mean to sound like a hardcase about something so painful for you, but reality is what it is. It's important to face the fact that maybe he's not such a nice guy. I don't know that - I'm all the way out here in the ether. Just absorb the fact that that not all drunks are verbally abusive and see where that brings you.

[embraced2000]

i struggled with this concept also for a long time.

with my twisted way of thinking, i believed the medical field was wrong, wrong, wrong in labeling alcoholism as a disease. i thought they should rethink the entire system and re-vamp it entirely. i could understand the physiological effects of alcohol on a person who was alcoholic....but could not justify the actions they made of abuse, lying, cheating, theft.

i had to seperate out the actions from the disease, and realize that yes, someone may be an alcoholic, but they may also have character traits of abuse, dishonesty, theivery, and cheating.

i now believe they are two seperate issues. i had to wrap my brain around this new way of thinking, whether it is correct or not.....because i was obsessing over it all and keeping myself upset with the definition of alcoholism.

i have personally know alcoholics that were gentle, kind people.....and never did any of the abuse or other disgusting things that many of us have lived with from our a's.

[newenglandgirl]

So now you think that a person who becomes an obnoxious a-hole when they are drunk, is showing their true colors? I totally agree that not all alcoholics are unpleasant when they are drunk. I think back to a childhood friend's father who was an alcoholic; he would just sit in his easy-chair and read and nod off. It's just hard for me to understand the dr.jeckel/mr.hyde syndrome...It's like watching someone with multiple personalities! Which is real? Both?
Is the alcoholic mentally ill even without the alcohol?

[mallowcup]

It is a disease. It isnt' the disease that we can't tolerate. It is the intoxication that we hate, It is the degrees of intoxication that determines how much we have to tolerate in the name of being supportive. Here's what I hate most, the person with the disease denying it, the person with the disease doing absolutely nothing to manage it. I would be just as ticked a loved one who was grossly obese with an enlarged heart who gorged on french fries and pasties. The evidence of the destruction is everywhere.

[WantsOut]

NEG, I love ya babe. Stop obsessing over what's wrong with him.

Let's talk about you. What do you want? If you could do anything you wanted, knowing for a fact that he would never change, what would you do?

[newenglandgirl]

Thanks for the reminder WantsOut.
Even if he does change...either way...I want my name back...I want:

to go out dancing again
to go to museums and the city with friends on weekends.
to invite friends over for dinner!
to stay late at work if I need or want to
to watch t.v. without flipping the channel every 5 seconds
to enjoy a glass of wine the way I used to!
to relax and not worry anymore about how he is doing every second

what about other people?

[Janitw]

Jeri - we are so alike it scare me sometimes......I dont believe that its the disease at all and havent for a long time now. There are 2 camps on this issue:

1. They say that alcoholism is a disease and even hereditary......and they cant help what they say and do....(bullcrap)

2. This group says it's not a disease because anything that stops the effects by stopping the action is not a disease......for example: a crack addict...they dont go around saying that they have a disease do they? Because the medical world isnt giving in to this thought yet...its a matter of free will folks...choices....its all about choices....

Its just so easy for an alcoholic to say that they did this or they did that because they have a disease and it couldnt be helped....I wish I could use that line with my wrong doing and have it accepted and handled with what??? Love???? So??? I can hurt, maim, scar, and distroy all the goodness in my life and BLAME it on a disease.....well now.....aint that just skippy???? I dont buy it at all....not at all.

Janit

[mallowcup]

How about this concept? It's the disease talking. I want to hear the recovery talking. That's right Janit, the world is what it is, it's how you react to it that effects your life most.

[TexasGirl]

I guess the disease thing bothered me the most when he would, after claiming for months that he didn't have a drinking problem, say, "But, it's not my fault! I have a disease!"
Ugh.

[embraced2000]

i became so angry and obsessive about this issue that it was threatening my serenity. had to let it go.

i just have to believe that it's something i don't want and act accordingly.

oh, i just can't go there, folks.

love to you all
jeri

[Janitw]

This issue is a real tough pill for me to swallow too Jeri.....but you're right we have to let go and let God......we cant get through it any other way....I think they call it moving onnnnn...

Janit

[embraced2000]

oh, and oone more thing....i just hate it, hate it, hate it when i read on here when it's compared to diabetes.

i have diabetes and i take very good care of myself. i don't abuse people, i don't lie to people about my disease, i don't steal to buy my supplies, i have never abandoned my children, family, or friends, i keep a job, pay my bills, and am a contributing member of society. and i have never hit someone when my sugar was too high.

please.....let them find another disease to compare alcoholism with.

[WantsOut]

Take one person who is genetically inclined to have obsessive thinking, add alcohol or drugs, and you have a big mess on your hands.

[StandingStrong]

As I've mentioned on this site before, I too have a hard time with the "disease" concept. While I understand it, my mind just can't really grasp it. For me, it's been easier to think of it more as a "mental illness".

For me also, I had a really hard time understanding the whole "it's what they do" thing at first because my XAH is a very functional binger.
Today I realize that many of his character traits have probably been lying dormant underneath the drink (before he became alcoholic) and that the alcohol brought it up to the surface and exaggerated it enough for me to see.

As much as I endured, and for how painful it is sometimes now, I know in my heart that regardless of the reasons (alcoholism, disease, mental illness, etc) - my XAH treated me in a way he shouldn't have and I am better off not putting myself in that environment.

[DesertEyes]

Hey there Janit, and thanx for bringing this up.

Originally Posted by Janitw

...I dont believe that its the disease at all and havent for a long time now. ...

That's perfectly fine. I completely respect your beliefs. I will only comment on the 2 "camps" you mentioned. _Both_ those camps are wrong, and here's why

Originally Posted by Janitw

... They say that alcoholism is a disease and even hereditary......and they cant help what they say and do....(bullcrap)...

You are completely correct, it _is_ bull****. People are responsible for what they say and do, _regardless_ of disease. Anybody who tries to excuse iresponsible behavior is wrong, no matter what they use for an excuse.

Originally Posted by Janitw

...This group says it's not a disease because anything that stops the effects by stopping the action is not a disease...... ...

This group is wrong too. Stopping the action of smoking does _not_ stop the disease of cancer. Diseases don't get stopped just by stopping the action that started them. No disease does, not even a simple cold.

Let me try to explain the difference between disease and responsibility, and out of respect I will not use diabetes (luv ya Jeri )

How about a heart condition. I have a bad heart (technically "cardiac neuropathy"). If I get on a roller-coaster the sudden forces of gravity as the roller-coaster ride goes thru a dive will cause my heart to stop. Legally I am not allowed to fly an airplane, because airplanes tend to shift gravity around when the flight gets bumpy, or when the plane has to make a tight turn. If I am the pilot and I pass out the plane will crash and who knows how many people would get killed.

My _disease_ has the symptom that if I get in a shifting gravity situation I will pass out. No matter how much will power I try to use. No matter how bad I want it not to. I have _no control_ over the disease of my heart.

I _do_ have control over the rest of my body, and I can _choose_ not to get in the pilot's seat in the first place. For me to get in the pilot's seat is _complete_ irresponsibility and has nothing to do with the disease.

I am also an alcoholic. I am completely responsible for my life, and for staying as far away from drugs and alcohol as I possibly can. For me to take the _first_ drink is _completely_ irresponsible and has _nothing_ to do with the disease.

_After_ the first drink has hit my brain is when my disease has kicked in. At that point I am like a passed-out pilot. The only sane thing to do is get outta the way and wait for the cops to come take care of the mess.

When I was in the depth of my codie-ism I was living with a pill-addicted woman, who is now my ex-wife. I expected her to be responsible when she was high on her pills. I expected her to stop running around with other guys when she was high on her pills. Expecting her to behave that way is the same thing as expecting a passed out pilot to rescue the falling airplane. That expectation is beyond foolish, it's practically suicidal.

If I were in a falling airplane and the pilot is passed out I would jump out with a parachute, and quick! But I did _not_ jump out of my falling marriage with the pill-addicted wife. I stayed in that falling "airplane", expecting her to magically rescue the "airplane".

Does it really matter if the pilot has a bad heart? The plane is _falling_!!! Get the ****** outta the plane.

Whether my wife has a disease or not is irrelevant. The problem is that _I_ stayed in the marriage far longer than any sane human would have. I need to focus on _me_ and _my_ unhealthy behavior in that marriage. _Her_ disease is her problem and none of my business. This is what al-anon means when they say "focus on ourselves". If I am focused on my ex-wife and whether or not she has a disease I am _not_ getting my own tush outta the falling plane. I am sitting in the plane, and quickly running outta time.

Mike

[FormerDoormat]

"Even if he does change...either way...I want my name back...I want:

to go out dancing again
to go to museums and the city with friends on weekends.
to invite friends over for dinner!
to stay late at work if I need or want to
to watch t.v. without flipping the channel every 5 seconds
to enjoy a glass of wine the way I used to!
to relax and not worry anymore about how he is doing every second"

Seems to me that the only person stopping you from enjoying all these things is you. Having an alcoholic in your home doesn't mean you can't enjoy these things. He's certainly not stopping you--you are. You CAN do all of these things when you stop worrying about what he's doing or might be doing. So let go and let God and get out there and enjoy your life!

[embraced2000]

thank you mike...luv ya too

ok, answer me this mike. i have come to believe that alcoholism is a disease because the ama says so...and i know they are much smarter than me. i can accept that. but i can't accept that the abusiveness and the other traits we all know about, are symptoms of this disease. i have really struggled with this....i have known kind, gentle alcoholics....now, they couldn't take care of a caterpillar in a coffee can, but they were kind and i know of one in particular that absolutely everyone loved.

i have come to convince myself that these behaviors are character traits that are magnified by the disease of alcoholism. i need to think that a-holes have a totally different problem than alcoholics.

but i have heard in open aa meetings the stories that would almost stop your heart....no pun intended.....and these people are now just a-ok.

so, just because it gets my panties in a wad, i just stay away from it all. because it really doesn't matter, as long as i am ok and happy.

and i have totally forgotten what my question was.

oh, i remember now......do you have a good recipe for salsa? lolololo

[kindredSpiritGr]

My Ah compares his drinking with my reading books. I love books and i go to the bookstore once a week and i read alot. He says he will stop drinking when i stop reading books. I dont know if he doesnt see the difference or if hes just being obtuse, or bullheaded, but it makes me nuts when he says that. I dont even know how to begin to argue with something so illogical.

[embraced2000]

i think there is something else we need to remember...on this forum, we are dealing with alcoholics and addicts that just are not ready, or cannot take the steps to get sober and clean.

there are many, many out there that have been able to stop, get it together and prosper. we don't hear of those on this forum, because, well....they are doing ok.

so all of us here are really struggling with the hard cases. just a thought.

[newenglandgirl]

I remember when I first started "waking up" and realizing that my AH wasn't just being "grumpy", or "stressed-out", or "forgetful", etc etc...all of a sudden (and God knows why it took me so darn long to wake up) I realized that my husband was losing his friggin' mind. I stopped listening to the things he said as if he were a normal person. I started paying attention to how crazy he had become. It is a very sad thing. And I felt all of sudden very alone and scared. It's no fun being in an isolated place with a madman!