Self

SELF
"The Green Letters" by MJStanford

One of the most important factors in Christian growth is the Holy Spirit's revelation of the self-life to the believer. Self is the fleshly, carnal life of nature, the life of the first Adam -- "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1); thoroughly corrupt before God (Galatians 5:19-21); the life in which there is no good thing in the sight of God (Romans 7:18). Nowhere do spiritual principles mean more than here. Plato, with his "Know thyself," was more right than he knew, but still only half right. Paul, with God's "Not I, but Christ," was all right!

In order for one to get beyond just knowing about the Lord Jesus, and enter into a consistent and growing personal knowledge of and fellowship with Him, one must FIRST come to know oneself. Introspection is not involved here -- the Holy Spirit uses experiential revelation. First, the believer learns "Not I," then, "but Christ." First, "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone," then "but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit" (John 12:24). First, "alway delivered unto death," then, "that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest" (2 Corinthians 4:11). In service: first, "death worketh in us," then, "but life in you" (2 Corinthians 4:12. All resurrection life springs out of death, else it would not be resurrection life -- His risen life (Roman 6:5-6). We are to yield ourselves unto God as those that are alive from the dead (Romans 6:13).

For some years now the scene has been dominated by a conversion known as "commitment," which often, sad to say, amounts to little more than a spiritual miscarriage. When there is a bit of life it usually blossoms overnight into full bloom, and soon becomes heavy with the fruit of "dynamic," "radiant," personality coupled with busy, rushing service. The tragedy of this sort of thing is the self is at home and thrives in the glow of it all, and is rarely found out for what it really is. All is indiscriminate "hearts and flowers."

The healthy new birth, based on deep conviction of sin, and repentance toward God, starts out clear and strong with love and devotion to the Savior. But, ere long, there comes the sickening realization of an element within that pulls one back to self-centeredness, to the world, to the rule of the law, to sin. This learning by heart-breaking experience of the utter sinfulness and reigning power of self in the everyday Christian life, is the means whereby we come to know the Lord Jesus beyond the birth-phase -- as our Savior; on to the growth-phase -- as our Lord and Life. "To me to live is Christ." No believer will truly come to know the Lord Jesus as his Life until he knows by experience the deadly self-life deep within for what it is.

At a Spiritual Life Conference many years ago, Dr. C. I. Scofield said, "Not everyone, by any means, has had the experience of the seventh of Romans, that agony of conflict, of desire to do what we cannot do, of longing to do the right we find we cannot do. It is a great blessing when a person gets into the seventh of Romans and begins to realize the awful conflict of its struggle and defeat; because the first step toward getting out of the struggle of the seventh chapter and into the victory of the eighth, is to get into the seventh. Of all the needy classes of people, the neediest of this earth are not those who are having a heartbreaking, agonizing struggle for victory, but those who are having no struggle at all, and no victory, and who do not know it, and who are satisfied and jogging along in a pitiable absence of almost all the possessions that belong to them in Christ."

J. C. Metcalf gives this same fact an added witness: "Many a young Christian, who has not been warned of this necessary voyage of discovery upon which the Holy Spirit will certainly embark him (Romans 7), has been plunged into almost incurable despair at the sight of the sinfulness which is his by nature. He has in the first place rejoiced greatly in the forgiveness of his sins, and his acceptance by God; but sooner or later he begins to realize that all is not well, and that he has failed and fallen from the high standard which he set himself to reach in the first flush of his conversion.

"He begins to know something of the experience which Paul so graphically describes: 'What I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I (Romans 7:15), and, in consequence, he feels that the bottom has fallen out of his Christian life; and then perhaps the Devil whispers to him that it is just no good his going on, because he will never be able to make the grade. Little does he know how healthy his condition is, and that this shattering discovery is but the prelude to a magnificent series of further discoveries of things which God has expressly designed for his eternal enrichment. All through life God has to show us our own utter sinfulness and need, before He is able to lead us on into realms of grace, in which we shall glimpse His glory."

Self-revelation precedes divine revelation -- that is a principle for both spiritual birth and spiritual growth. The believer who is going through struggle and failure is the Christian who is being carefully and lovingly handled by his Lord in a very personal way. He is being taken through the experience (years in extent) of self-revelation and into death; the only basis upon which to "know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Philippians 3:10).

God works by paradox. Success comes via failure; life springs out of death, etc. The only element in the believer's life that crumbles is that which has to go anyway -- the new life can never be harmed or affected. This disintegration is something the believer cannot enter into nor engineer on his own -- self will never cast out self. He has to be led into it by the mercy of the Holy Spirit -- into failure; abject and total. "For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest of our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). So often the means utilized by the Spirit is an unsaved mate, or even a saved one! Or poor health, yes, and good health, too! A thousand and one things are used by Him -- in fact, everything (Romans 8:28-29), to bring out the worst in us, ultimately enabling us to see that the Christian life has to be "not I, but Christ." People, circumstances, etc., are never the cause of failure. Self's reaction to them is the cause, and the one problem to be dealt with. "It's me, it's me, O Lord."

"Many of us have probably known what it was to rejoice in the grace of God without having apprehended very much the true character of the flesh. It has often been noticed that where there is the greatest exuberance of joy in young converts, there is often a levity which fails to take into account that the flesh is unchanged. In such cases the grace of God is taken up in a self-confident way; there is very little self-distrust, or sense of weakness and dependence. And the inevitable consequence is a fall, or a succession of falls, that gradually bring home to the consciences of believers their utter weakness and incapacity as in the flesh." --C. A. Coates

Evan Hopkins shares some important light on our subject: "How infinite are the forms in which self appears. Some are occupied with good self. They pride themselves on their excellencies. Others are just as much occupied with bad self. They are forever groaning over their imperfections, and struggling with the flesh as if they hoped in time to improve it. When shall we be convinced it is so utterly bad that it is beyond all recovery? Our experience, upward, in the power of God, is just in proportion to our experience, downward, in ceasing from self.

"Is it, Reckon yourself to be weak in reference to sin? No, it is lower than that. Is it, Reckon yourself to be dying? No, lower still. 'Reckon yourself to be dead -- (Romans 6:11) -- indeed unto sin.' Some believe they are very weak. But what does that imply? that they have some strength. But when a man is dead he has no strength. We must act on the fact that we are dead in reference to sin. We shall not then speak of difficulty as to resisting temptation in reference to ourselves. We shall take the lowest place, and say it is impossible with self is possible with God. We shall take our place on the resurrection side of the cross, and in so doing we leave behind the old self-life for the new Christ-life. To live in Him who is our Life, is to be in the power of God." Someone has rightly said that "there are many 'separated from the world' Christians who are not 'separated from themselves' Christians."

[larrynboys]

Evan Hopkins shares some important light on our subject: "How infinite are the forms in which self appears. Some are occupied with good self. They pride themselves on their excellencies. Others are just as much occupied with bad self. They are forever groaning over their imperfections, and struggling with the flesh as if they hoped in time to improve it. When shall we be convinced it is so utterly bad that it is beyond all recovery? Our experience, upward, in the power of God, is just in proportion to our experience, downward, in ceasing from self.

I beat myself up all the time, but if i I completely thought of myself as utterly bad, would i strive to still better myself?
I guess maybe I'm not understanding this completely, can you help me out here, Would this fall under being powerless,
Thanks larry

[jramey]

I am learning every day to be less of me and more of Him. He loves me the way I am, but because He loves me He is not going to leave me here. In fact, His goal is for me to be just like Him. I have to strive to be just like Jesus! Self is probably the one thing that I have the hardest time dealing with. I am my greatest enemy. I get in the way. I fall short of the glory of God. Lukily Phil. 4:13 assures me that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. I know that all I have to do is give up my selfish and worldly ways. Wait a minute, did I say 'all'!!!!! This is no easy task; however, it can be done. Christ doesn't fall short of the glory of God. So, in turn, I've learned that if I yeild to him, and submit my life to him, I won't fall short anymore. The whole problem is doing it, allowing Jesus to riegn in my life. Fortunately for me, I have prayer. It helps in great lengths. Thanks for this thread!!
---------------------Jen

It took me 5 long painful years to grasp this concept. I'll try to communicate what my belief is.

"Self" or the flesh or the old nature will try to save itself in one of two ways. Either by looking at itself and saying it's good or looking at itself and saying it is bad and then striving to make itself better or strive to save itself.

The fact is that self must die or rather is already dead. There is no making it better. It can never be good enough to please God. Whenever we look at ourselves to see if we are good or bad it is self that is doing the looking. Self will either say I'm ok and seek to be humble or I'm not ok and I need to be better in this area or in that area. It's the knowledge of good and evil, which was not allowed into the promised land. It's what we received when we disobeyed God in the garden. The knowledge of good and evil. That was the bad tree. We have to be cut off of that tree and grafted onto the tree of life.

There is no knowledge of good and evil on the tree of life. There is just life. Jesus is the life. For me to live is Christ. "Self" is not involved in that life. "Self" was crucified with Christ and died in Christ. There is no good or bad. There is no striving to be better or looking at ourselves judging that we are good. There is just Christ in me the hope of glory. His resurrected life in me.

We don't have to kill the flesh. That was already done in Christ on the cross. We don't have to strive to be better. We are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

So where is the problem and why aren't we living a victorious life? It's a matter of faith. We don't know yet in our reality what's already been done. We enter in by faith. Not by working to fix our flesh. Reckon yourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God. Dead men don't try to fix themselves. They are dead. If you died with Christ why are you striving to be better? If we have Christ's resurrected life in us how can we add to that?

It's only a matter of faith. I do believe Lord. Help me with my unbelief. It is finished.

Romans 10
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.�[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’[b]� (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’[c]� (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,�[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,� and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.�[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.�[f]

[Captain Morgan]

i really appreciate you posting this, MG. Thank you.

[larrynboys]

Morning Glory
I do believe i have a better understanding, thankyou very much!

[best]

paraphrased...

Paul speaking... I am the best of them all. I am Pharisees among Pharisees.
In my earthly understanding and greatness, with all I have done in the eyes of man... None of it matters for we are all but filthy rages in God's eyes.

"ALL" are sinners. "ALL" need God's grace and forgiveness.
No matter how good we "think" we are, we are nothing in God's sight.

By the sacrifice given us of God's love through Jesus, when God looks upon us, He only sees His son Jesus.
We live in the shadow of Jesus as we stand before the Father. Covered in the vale of His blood that was shed upon the cross.
Yes I am worthless and nothing without Him. I am hopeless and dead without Him.
Why should I even try?
Because Jesus loves me and He sees in me what I can't see in myself.
He has filled me with His love. When you see any goodness come out of me, you are seeing His love not mine.
Like the mechanic who buys the old car and restores it... Jesus will restore what has been broken and make me a new creature in Him.

[susan_17]

So we must let ourselves die, so that we may live...

I look at death as separation. I think I would rephrase that to say we must be separated so we can be joined to God who is our life.

[Captain Morgan]

In my own experience, this separation MG's talking about is, of course, not a physical death or separation, but spiritual, but I think it can be as painful, if not more so; not that I know yet the pain of physical death. I guess that is on a case by case basis, and I think this is the way it is spiritually as well. I am confident that physical death is many times painful and ugly. The body, while naturally destructive, clings to life. This is analogous to spiritual dying, or "circumcision of the heart."

Romans 2
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?...02;&version=9;


From what I understand, the Old Testament physically represents spritual concepts presented in the New. Imagine the physical pain, as men, even including adults, physically circumcised themselves (ladies you may not quite understand this pain, haha). Abraham, and all that were with him, did this.

This spiritual pain has been excruciating for me. It is me being pulled away from all I ever knew. What once were my dreams, my hopes, my wishes; they are now dead, or close to it. It hurts so much. It is not something that occured instantaneously; it is something in progress.

As MG said, it is not until we are completely separated from our own desires, that we can be united with God's. How can we do this as long as we live in this mortal body? As I understand it, we can't:

2 Corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?...05;&version=9;

Do we think that Christ said in vain:

Matthew 5
3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?...05;&version=9;

[jramey]

You know sacrifices were made daily and sometimes twice a day to cover sins, but they were sacrifices made in vain. We would never have been able to sacrifice anything dead (or for that matter alive) to cover (wash) our sins away. We are not perfect. Hence the coming of Jesus. He came to be perfect and sacrifice the one perfect thing whose blood had the power to cleanse us. The last thing Jesus said was 'It is finished'. He gave us the blood at Calvery to wash away our sins. No longer were sacrifices of dead animals ect. acceptable to lay at the alter. They were no longer needed. The ultimate sacrifice had been made. Our debt had been paid by the one thing that could give us access to be perfect, clean, acceptable to our Lord and Savior. The only way is through Jesus Christ. We must deny ourself. That is the Word. We must be living sacrifices. Everyday we must sacrifice our own selfish needs and wants, and be more like Jesus. If we can't do this then we will never be what He intended us to be. Then His sacrifice was done for nothing. We have the comfort of his spirit to help us in our needs. We can overcome, we can deny ourselves. We can be like Jesus.

[larrynboys]

Originally Posted by jramey

You know sacrifices were made daily and sometimes twice a day to cover sins, but they were sacrifices made in vain. We would never have been able to sacrifice anything dead (or for that matter alive) to cover (wash) our sins away. We are not perfect. Hence the coming of Jesus. He came to be perfect and sacrifice the one perfect thing whose blood had the power to cleanse us. The last thing Jesus said was 'It is finished'. He gave us the blood at Calvery to wash away our sins. No longer were sacrifices of dead animals ect. acceptable to lay at the alter. They were no longer needed. The ultimate sacrifice had been made. Our debt had been paid by the one thing that could give us access to be perfect, clean, acceptable to our Lord and Savior. The only way is through Jesus Christ. We must deny ourself. That is the Word. We must be living sacrifices. Everyday we must sacrifice our own selfish needs and wants, and be more like Jesus. If we can't do this then we will never be what He intended us to be. Then His sacrifice was done for nothing. We have the comfort of his spirit to help us in our needs. We can overcome, we can deny ourselves. We can be like Jesus.

AMEN Jramey!! Thankyou for this topic MG
I can see sometimes for someone who would like to know Jesus could be confused by parables that can look as more threatoning than helpfull, sometimes even phrases. I myself could see your post as a completly easy and simple to understand message to the one person who would like to know Jesus, and have that simple relationship with him and experience his miracle. "1st" the belief that he died so that we may live,"2nd" repentence,forgiveness and forgiving(including resentments) "3rd"asking him into our heart,Once we've done this than we have his spirit to help us, than we are already making changes in our life,and we aren't alone in doing this either,as long as we put Jesus in control, than comes conviction of the spirit. The tools you have now are all powerfull, as long as you apply them to your every day life than you are being seperated from the flesh. Joy will fill your heart and people will notice something different about you. (something Special and admirable) Speaking from my own experience.I know this is simple but simple works for me.
(P.S.) Prayer can be as simple as a few words, because your now forgiven heart speaks loud and with love
simple beginning prayers are as easy as?
I Love you Jesus ! (several times a day)
Be with me Jesus!
help me to overcome! (etc.)

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Where's that in the New Testament? I just read that the other day. I can't recall what book!!! I can't recall if, it was in Revelation.
sacrifices made daily
Anyone know??

Larry nice to c u on board

[best]

Originally Posted by CAPTAINZING2000

Where's that in the New Testament? I just read that the other day. I can't recall what book!!!
sacrifices made daily
Anyone know??

What a time to be without a topical bible *LOL*
bible.com and then put in Sacrifices in the search. It gives about 15 places in the NT in regaurds to Sacrifices. Not sure what one you are asking about.


Isaiah I believe is where it says... I require mercy not Sacrifices
As the people were doing rituals and not doing what is right and good.
A call back to what is important.

[best]

A husband and wife who did odd jobs for cash as neither had a real job... they were burnt out of their home and thus lived as gypsies you could say.
A moble home that they would park at K Mart or Wal Mart till someone told them to leave. As I talked with them, the wife had understanding and a realization that what they lost was material things. They and their children walked away from the house and belongings that were on fire and not one scratch on any of them. When all is gone (material things) it lets you know what is important in life... Life itself.
To be told we must give up all that we have (die to the flesh) when all that we have is our free will. That can be a tough pill to swallow.
When Paul said to live is Christ and to die is gain... He was speaking of living with Christ in our hearts here on earth and when we die and leave the earth we gain Heaven.
I have found that when I died to self...strive to give over my will daily to God.
I gave up all that I have but in return have gained so much more.
I have found life to be filled with joys at every turn. When I try to give of self I always gain. Seems you can't outgive God.
Like that saying goes....
I looked for a friend but couldn't find one. I went out to become a friend and I found friends all over the place.
Give a smile and you get a smile.
Love holds no joy until it gets shared.

As the verse says... He who tries to save his life shall loss. He who gives up his life shall gain.
Can't out give God but we should never stop trying.

[jramey]

Originally Posted by CAPTAINZING2000

Where's that in the New Testament? I just read that the other day. I can't recall what book!!! I can't recall if, it was in Revelation.
sacrifices made daily
Anyone know?

I can't remember off the top of my head but give me a minute and I will get my Bible. I do know that Paul in one of his apistles said I die daily. Think about it. It's a daily sacrifice. Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore brethren by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice holy, acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service." --------------------------------------------------------Jen
P.S. I see what else I can find. I think some of it is in Hebrews.