"No Longer a Christian"

[woodtick]

Before anybody starts to assume I have denied Him please read these links as they essentialy describe how I have been feeling for the past year and a half. I was unable to put my finger on it until I came across these articles. I can't help but believe there are many others out there feeling the same way I do.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1025-25.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1130-20.htm

The issues presented in these articles have dominated my spiritual life and put it in turmoil. I am very angy about it because it shouldn't have to be that way.
Ultimately my goal in life is to be and inspire others to be Christ-like. I'm just not sure how to proceed from here. The thought that keeps popping into my mind is to trust God not man.

[splendra]

I guess I am with you ((((WT))))). I do not understand how one can be against abortion and for war and the death penality because killing is killing. I know my JESUS said: LOVE YOUR ENEMY

[larrynboys]

http://forums.christiansunite.com/in...;threadid=5775
Maybe you might like to read both intrepritations of this issue..:|

[woodtick]

OK interesting enough. Obviously the debate about the biblical justification for human death can go on in perpetuity. If those advocating war and killing are wrong then they are all murderers, I beg them to rethink their certainty. Is ther room for error on this issue?

I can't help but think of a Dr. Jacob Bronowski. In his book "The Ascent of Man," Bronowski, a Jew who lost his entire family at Auschwitz, is pictured at the concentration camp after the war, holding a pile of ashes and quoting Oliver Cromwell; "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken." A profound statement coming from a Jew who doesn't believe Jesus is the Messiah.

[splendra]

I believe God can kill whom ever He chooses but, Bush is not GOD I don't care how moral he thinks he is.

Jesus's diciples thought He was going to start a revolution and He did but, remember who died?

[best]

Originally Posted by woodtick

...
Ultimately my goal in life is to be and inspire others to be Christ-like. I'm just not sure how to proceed from here. The thought that keeps popping into my mind is to trust God not man.

Psalm 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD

than to trust in man.

I think you have a good start on where answers will come from.

As you open a bible to Psalm 118, you will see that you are at the center of His word.

[Dawn10]

Finally I am seeing some views that I share as a Christian! My Jesus loves everyone--good, bad or indifferent. He may not like what we do, but as long as we draw breath, there is hope that the choice to follow Him will be made.
My Jesus hates war..and I cringe when I see our President proclaim his faith to his followers and then send innocent young men and women to war and yet he never served any time in active duty. I am not doubting his faith, but I much prefer to admire a former President Carter who actively lives his faith and suffers the consequences of his decisions with grace because he chose to follow Jesus' example of non vilolence. I just read an interview with him that he shared of his unpopular decision not to bomb in Iran despite all the advice he received to do so. He is proud of his non violent stance and acknowledged that it probably lost him the election to Reagan, but he can sleep nights.
Killing is killing and if you are against abortion, one should feel the same about war.
I guess I was meant to be a flower child!

[best]

Originally Posted by splendra

I guess I am with you ((((WT))))). I do not understand how one can be against abortion and for war and the death penality because killing is killing. I know my JESUS said: LOVE YOUR ENEMY

Against abortion, against war, and against the death penality.
If asked to go to war by the leaders of my country...
Jesus tells us we are to follow the rules set forth by those above us.
If on a jury and the law calls for the death penality... if the facts say guilty, I would follow the law and vote a yes as the law of the land says.
If at a polling booth and they ask... death penality or not... That is where I would vote a no.

Every leader who has come to power on earth has done so with God knowing before hand who they are. God will use the evil of man to bring about His will and He will use the goodness of His love in man to shine His glory..
There is a difference between murder and kill. To kill someone is to stop them from breathing. To murder someone is to go out after them without justification and take their life from them. There are only two ways to stop evil... change their hearts to good or stop them from doing evil. I can't change hearts. Only God can. What I do is pray that He change hearts and guide our leaders to do what is right and just in His eyes. For our miltary to go out against the evil of this world... if they be God's hand that bring and end to the murdering that is done by the evil then so be it. It is up to the leaders to be just in their order to send men off to war. For a leader to send men off for personal gain such as hitler did would be murder. As Churchell said... evil prospers when good men do nothing.
For each person who would send or go off to wars... they should search their heart and be sure they are walking in just ways before they leave. All will need answer to God for our choices. I only have control to a degree over my own choices and I have prayer to God in regaurds to the choices of others.
Yes it is better to trust God then to trust in any man... including myself.

[Trooth]

As far as war and killing goes. God kills sinners all the time in the old testament. Often times he would kill the sinner's wives kids, uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc. along with the sinner. He commanded his people to kill them. Read Exodus, and you will find that the law commands that people be stoned for crimes that we would show mercy too.

However, Jesus paints a different people, and we are not under mosaic law. Judge not lest ye be judged, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. Quite a precident, for a true Christian. Jesus said constantly that he did not come to judge or executor of the sinners. If we are to be Christ like, we are not supposed to be either. I venture to say that many of these self righteous people are not Christians in the sense they are not Christ like. They are trying to do God's job.

Vengence is mine I will repay, thus sayeth the Lord. Don't let these people take the term Christian, wear it proudly. If they were Jews 3000 to 6000 years ago they would be right but in this instance I think that they are completely ignoring the teachings of Jesus and using old testament scriptures out of place.

[Trooth]

Kind of on topic, the Bible institutes a separation of church and state. Read that the high priests were not supposed to lead the country, all Kings came from Judah, priests came from Levi. War is necessary in our world. Punishment for crimes is necessary for a society to function. We need laws and consequences. Best said it best. Personally we are not supposed to take vengance (no vigilantes), and we are supposed to forgive, as a society though we have to have a law & order until we are made perfect.

As hard as it may be for some people, church rule is not legitimized by the scripture. Yes God was supposed to be the original leader of Israel, but God and the church are not the same. If you want an example of how bad a religion ran government can be, you need look no further than the middle east, or look through history at the dark ages under our own religion.

[Captain Morgan]

James 4 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



James 4

1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.


3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.


4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?


6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.


7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.


10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.


12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?


13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:


14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.


15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.


16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.


17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

[Captain Morgan]

Galatians 4 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



Galatians 4

1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.


3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:


4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,


5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.


9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?


10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.


11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


12Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.


13Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.


14And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.


15Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.


16Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?


17They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.


18But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.


19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


20I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.


21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.


24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.


30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

[Dan]

Fascinating thread.
I have a keen interest in the man known as Jesus.
I want to thank you all for this discussion.

Originally Posted by Trooth

If you want an example of how bad a religion ran government can be, you need look no further than the middle east, or look through history at the dark ages under our own religion.

The Crusades come to mind...

[Captain Morgan]

Romans 2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



Romans 2

1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.


3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?


4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,


9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


11For there is no respect of persons with God.


12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;


13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,


18And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;


19And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,


20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.


21Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?


22Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?


23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?


24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.


26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?


27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?


28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:


29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[woodtick]

[

I]"As hard as it may be for some people, church rule is not legitimized by the scripture. Yes God was supposed to be the original leader of Israel, but God and the church are not the same. If you want an example of how bad a religion ran government can be, you need look no further than the middle east, or look through history at the dark ages under our own religion."[/I]

For me Adolf Hitler came to mind. He essentially said he had a mandate from god. He went on and on about how God was going to bless the fatherland and what Germany was doing was for the glory of God, the sad thing was that the Christian clergy (a few exceptions) were essentially bribed with political clout/influence to along with him. Heartbreaking for God I'm sure.

Religious rhetoric has been used throughout history to justify aggressive military actions, however every war in history (exclude one or two over women) has a commonality. The aggressor stood to gain great wealth, power, and/or control of natural resources.

best,
[

I]"If on a jury and the law calls for the death penality... if the facts say guilty, I would follow the law and vote a yes as the law of the land says."[/I]

If the law of the men says there shall be no state sponsored religion, would you therfore advocate the removal of religious icons in state owned buildings?

"God will use the evil of man to bring about His will...For our miltary to go out against the evil of this world... if they be God's hand that bring and end to the murdering that is done by the evil then so be it. It is up to the leaders to be just in their order to send men off to war."

Is this biblical? I'm not saying it isn't, it just doesn't ring a bell with me. Please help.


Captain,
Thanks for the scripture. The King James bible is such an eloquent yet gracefull version, for me it's a kin to reading good poetry. Beautiful literature albeit difficult for some to read.

"5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"

Knowing this helps maintain peace within myself in a world where I witness evil deeds on a daily basis. The hypocrasy, lies, theivery, deception, and manipulation by our political, business and even some religious leaders is unprecedented. The consequences of their actions are heartbreaking not to mention they set the climate for the rest of society. I don't see those people as being or wanting to be Christ-like and I believe that was one of the main themes presented by Karen Horst Cobb in the links I initially presented.

[Trooth]

Originally Posted by DangerousDan

Fascinating thread.
I have a keen interest in the man known as Jesus.
I want to thank you all for this discussion.

The Crusades come to mind...

Exactly, the crusades was a holy war that was a cause/effect of the holy wars that the muslims were pursuing during the same time as they pushed into Europe and Africa. Some governments use religion to talk to the people into doing something, or as a way of controlling them. But that is kind of different from when a religous organization uses the government to carry out there conquests.

I think that both are wrong, and that was what was intended when the separation of church and state was issued. The government should not tell us how worship or what religion to choose, and our churches are not supposed to dictate to the government what their policies are. I don't agree with the government telling people that they cannot express religous values in schools or on public property, that is not what the intention of separation of church and state is all about.

[best]

Originally Posted by DangerousDan

Fascinating thread.
I have a keen interest in the man known as Jesus.
I want to thank you all for this discussion.

Best place to get answers would be ask the source.

Ask man and you will get opinion.
Knock on God's door, seek His answers, and ask of Him is what I found works best.

[best]

Originally Posted by woodtick

[


best,

If the law of the men says there shall be no state sponsored religion, would you therfore advocate the removal of religious icons in state owned buildings?

If the law stated that but the law doesn't and it is happening anyways.

Is this biblical? I'm not saying it isn't, it just doesn't ring a bell with me. Please help.
.

I am thinking you are asking in regaurds to this? Every leader who has come to power on earth has done so with God knowing before hand who they are. God will use the evil of man to bring about His will and He will use the goodness of His love in man to shine His glory..
Romans 8:28 and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good for those who are called according to His purpose...
Hope that answered your question

[woodtick]

Best,
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"If the law stated that but the law doesn't and it is happening anyways"

Explain yourself.

[best]

Originally Posted by woodtick

"Congress shall make no "law"

Making a law and stopping people from exercising their free right to what ever religion they wish to go after are two different things. Removal is prohibiting.
The law was made for that very reason... England was prohibiting any and all religions but the kings chosen religion. A baptist preacher ask T jefferson to please put in the provision... The government is to keep their hands off. Doesn't say the gov. must prohibit... it says the government shall not stop the practice of.

[jramey]

'Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your on understanding, but acknowledge Him in all your ways and He will make your paths straight.'
We don't necessarily have to understand everything around us. We just have to trust Him. It's not always easy, but that is the word.

[larrynboys]

Originally Posted by jramey

'Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your on understanding, but acknowledge Him in all your ways and He will make your paths straight.'
We don't necessarily have to understand everything around us. We just have to trust Him. It's not always easy, but that is the word.

Amen to that if God said it I believe it.

[jramey]

You know he definately works in mysterious ways. Remember also that every good and perfect gift comes from above. Therefore, we all know that alot of what we see every day does not come from above. I am so thankful that through him I have the ability to get past any tribulation in my life; regardless of what it may be. I can overcome it. 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.' He is so able. He is able to do exceedingly above and beyond anything I could ever ask of him. I have also read that if I ask for his help He will not forsake me. It is so comforting. I still struggle with worldly ideas and issues, don't get me wrong. We all do. However, I am so glad that I struggle, because it reminds me that He is there and waiting to guide me through. It is my constant reminder that Jesus is Lord of my life.

[woodtick]

Originally Posted by best

Making a law and stopping people from exercising their free right to what ever religion they wish to go after are two different things. Removal is prohibiting.
The law was made for that very reason... England was prohibiting any and all religions but the kings chosen religion. A baptist preacher ask T jefferson to please put in the provision... The government is to keep their hands off. Doesn't say the gov. must prohibit... it says the government shall not stop the practice of.

My problem with this and any subsquent allowance of any promotion of religion in public arenas is that when you allow one you WILL have to allow all. In that context I cringe, no I feel ill at the thought of a memorial of Satan in my courthouse. If it is allowed it will happen. The places where everyone is subject to, should be free of religious promotion. That is what it is when icons are displayed...promotion. Christianity doesn't need promotion, the truth is the "proof" and if you are not content with that maybe you should rethink your faith. If you believed in Jesus you would NOT have any need to push our belief. Crtamming it down people's throats is counterproductive.

I don't understand how this belief is any threat to the Christian faith. It is only a understanding of the principles of a nation based on separation of church and state. We can promote, celebrate, acknowlege our faith everyday in every way as we have always done, we just have to have respect for those who don't believe. I don't have a problem with that. I am secure in what I believe is the truth and I believe any promotion of my beliefs is NOT absolutely necessary or productive. Opportunities to share is one thing, but to place advertisements is another.

Ultimately the real issue here is the mating of the Christian right and the Neo-conservative movement. The neocons are destroying the middle class and their ability to maintain moral standards and the "Christian" church is suporting that under the guise of "moral" issues. The truth is that distribution of wealth in a society is a moral issue and the Christian church denies that. Jesus lived communaly, i.e. communism. The modern Christian community is based on individual gain. This is sick and wrong. Where is that in the bible?
Everybody for themselves huh? How about the fact that poverty breeds imorality??? Can you say pornography and drug use? The Christian church in America has bent over to be a ***** for the neocon right. These are the people who want the days of Tiny Tim revisited. If you want to see imorality, remove a person's wealth and honor and that is what you will get. History has been the proving ground.

[larrynboys]

Originally Posted by jramey

'Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding, but acknowledge Him in all your ways and He will make your paths straight.'
We don't necessarily have to understand everything around us. We just have to trust Him. It's not always easy, but that is the word.

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.