What Traditionalist Seem To Forget - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

GotItFirstTime · 11-21-2009, 08:43 AM

Having spent the last day or two talking on another tread, I thought I would get back to where I really belong. This other tread I speak of is about my life in NA then AA based on the pretence that I am free to have the Higher Power of my chosing. Mine just happens to be Jesus Christ and for that I will not apologize in ANY meeting, ANY where. Factually, had secualr traditionalist not taken over the various literture commitees and service offices AA, NA and others would have been left to their Christian roots. Here's what I mean:

What Early A.A. Was Really Like
You won't learn this in A.A.'s basic text today or in our meetings. But the simplicity of early A.A. will really astound you! And we are here speaking to the pioneer A.A. Christian Fellowship in Akron that developed our program and was led by Dr. Bob. Abstinence was Number One. Usually there was hospitalization or at least medical help to save the newcomer's life. At the hospital, only the Bible was allowed in the room. Recovered drunks visited the patient and told their success stories. The newcomer had to identify, admit that he too was licked, and that he would do whatever it took. Dr. Bob visited daily. Then, he would explain the “disease” as it was then understood; and, on the final day, Dr. Bob asked two questions to which there was only one answer: (1) Do you believe in God? (2) Are you willing to get down on your knees and pray? Reliance on the Creator was Number Two. The newcomer then gave his life to Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. Many were too sick to venture far; so they lived with the Smiths (and later others) in Akron homes. It is a myth that they recovered in an afternoon or in four easy lessons. They shook. They shivered. They fidgeted. They forgot. They were ashamed, insecure, and guilt-ridden. But they learned from the Good Book what a loving God had made available. Obedience to God’s will was Number Three. They were expected to walk in love and to eliminate sinful conduct from their lives. Growth in Fellowship with their Heavenly Father was Number Four. At the homes, they had daily Quiet Time (Bible study, prayer, asking guidance, reading a devotional, and discussing Anne Smith's Journal). They shared their woes and problems with Dr. Bob, with Anne (his wife), and with Henrietta Seiberling. They also had personal Quiet Times in their individual lives or at their home. They had one meeting a week. No drunkalogs. No whining. No psychobabble. Just prayer. Reading from Scripture. Quiet Time. Use of The Upper Room or similar devotionals for discussion. Then surrender upstairs for the newcomer in a prayer session resembling that in James 5:14-16. The newcomer confirmed his decision for Christ. [This confession of Christ by which the newcomer became born again has been confirmed as a “must” by four different and well-known A.A. old-timers—J. D. Holmes, Clarence Snyder, Larry Bauer, and Ed Andy.] At that time, the "elders" (usually Bob and T. Henry and one other) prayed with him that alcohol be taken out of his life, and joined him in asking that he be guided to live according to God's will. Intensive help for other alcoholics was the Fifth element. Following the surrender upstairs, downstairs there were announcements about newcomers at hospitals. Religious comradeship and attendance at a church of choice were recommended but not required. Socializing. And it started all over again. There were sessions with Dr. Bob involving a moral inventory (as to adherence to the Four Absolutes—honest, purity, unselfishness, and love), confession, prayer to have the sins removed, and plans for restitution. Did it work? You bet it did. A documented 75% success rate among the seemingly hopeless, “medically incurable” alcoholics who really tried. That was primarily among Akron members. And the fact that they had been cured by the power of God was widely publicized across America. Soon, a documented 93% in Cleveland. That's why the principles and practices in early A.A.—the principles that were already working in the Salvation Army, the Rescue Missions, the YMCA, and Christian Endeavor—need to be part and parcel of our own A.A. learning. A.A. is certainly no longer a Christian fellowship; nor does it any longer require belief in anything at all. But, for those who do believe in God’s healing power today, a knowledge of the simple history is vital. As reported to John D. Rockefeller, Jr., by Frank Amos: It took abstinence. It took God. It took the Bible. It took a life-change decision. It took living consistent with the decision. And it particularly emphasized witnessing to others. It took fellowship. And it took time--lots of it. And it was all just that simple—no steps and no text book. Just a Bible and several Oxford Group precepts. Just abstaining from drink and avoiding temptation. Relying on the Creator and coming to Him through His son. Obedience to His will—both in eliminating sin and in living love and service. Growing in fellowship through Bible study, prayer, asking wisdom, and study. And helping others without thought of pay. As they often put it: “No pay for soul surgery"

Each group, each fellowship seems to ignore the true roots of our fellowship. By excluding various religous types, by including all non-believers we set yet another uneven balance of power. However, as I explained before, we did not build, God did, and we cannot destroy it. Oh , we may have our differences, we may argue a bit, but when it all comes down to it, God will have His way.

Actual Listing From the Big Book AA

The word God - 67 times

The word Religious - 21 times

The word Creator - 12 times

The word Religion - 8 times

The word Heaven - 4 times

The word(s) Higher Power - 2 times

LuvinMe · 11-21-2009, 09:59 AM

Excellent post... I totally agree!

The first time I was introduced to recovery, I remember the intake lady asking me: What is spirituality? I honestly couldnt answer the question, my spirit was totally dead! I think I stayed sober about 10 or 11 months.

The second time around which was less than a year, I went cold turkey with only GOD's help. I prayed so hard, so many times a day. I was so afraid to go any where without prayer. I meant business and I know I needed GOD. He layed the foundation and I followed it. Treatment showed me other resources & things that I needed help with but yes my foundation is built on the man upstairs...

GotItFirstTime · 11-23-2009, 11:27 AM

My opinion is that the greaest need of our nation, our church and our fellowship is take "religion" out of everything. Freedom OF Religion, not freedom FROM religion is the end all argument that keeps ripping us apart. I am to be unjudgmental to my buddist or muslim brothers while they insisit we remove all Christain Incons from the groups? Why. Spirituality or Spirit filled acts are just that, driven by the spirit. It is prefectly fine for everyone to believe however they wish BUT that means I to am going to believe how I wish! I believe in Jesus Christ and He is my Higher Power. You can agree or disagree but please do not try to tell me I am wrong. Long ago, I attended a group that would not put up a Christmas tree in fear of offending Buddist or Muslims. When ask how many Budist or Muslims belong to the group the answer was " NONE". Each member of that group was a Christian or agnostic. We see this today all across America and as far south as Fort Hood Texas! Fear! In spirituality there is no fear. Fear is not a spiritual principle!

***cmc*** · 11-23-2009, 01:06 PM

my two cents' worth....

I'm pround of the fact that my country offers religious freedom to all.

That is, after all what this upcoming Thanksgiving holiday is all about: the right to religious freedom and the responsibility of tolerance. Every year we celebrate it as we recall how the Pilgrims seeking a new land to practice their faith in freedom; learned to welcome, accept and cooperate with others who were not of their faith. It's the same as the Golden Rule of "do unto others..."

CAPTAINZING2000 · 11-28-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmc

my two cents' worth....

I'm pround of the fact that my country offers religious freedom to all.

That is, after all what this upcoming Thanksgiving holiday is all about: the right to religious freedom and the responsibility of tolerance. Every year we celebrate it as we recall how the Pilgrims seeking a new land to practice their faith in freedom; learned to welcome, accept and cooperate with others who were not of their faith. It's the same as the Golden Rule of "do unto others..."

For some reason unbeknown to me, I'd brought up the topic of the Golden Rule the other night. I found this rule to be used in many different cultures around the world. The Golden Rule (ethics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While our area meetings do close with the Lord's prayer, we also read the AA preamble which does state we not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/smf-92_en.pdf

The main objective of AA is to help someone achieve sobriety first and foremost. If, I'm not sober, the holy trinity is the farthest thing from my mind anyway!!

11-21-2009, 08:43 AM	#1 (permalink)
GotItFirstTime Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Dumas Texas Posts: 35	What Traditionalist Seem To Forget Having spent the last day or two talking on another tread, I thought I would get back to where I really belong. This other tread I speak of is about my life in NA then AA based on the pretence that I am free to have the Higher Power of my chosing. Mine just happens to be Jesus Christ and for that I will not apologize in ANY meeting, ANY where. Factually, had secualr traditionalist not taken over the various literture commitees and service offices AA, NA and others would have been left to their Christian roots. Here's what I mean: What Early A.A. Was Really Like You won't learn this in A.A.'s basic text today or in our meetings. But the simplicity of early A.A. will really astound you! And we are here speaking to the pioneer A.A. Christian Fellowship in Akron that developed our program and was led by Dr. Bob. Abstinence was Number One. Usually there was hospitalization or at least medical help to save the newcomer's life. At the hospital, only the Bible was allowed in the room. Recovered drunks visited the patient and told their success stories. The newcomer had to identify, admit that he too was licked, and that he would do whatever it took. Dr. Bob visited daily. Then, he would explain the “disease” as it was then understood; and, on the final day, Dr. Bob asked two questions to which there was only one answer: (1) Do you believe in God? (2) Are you willing to get down on your knees and pray? Reliance on the Creator was Number Two. The newcomer then gave his life to Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. Many were too sick to venture far; so they lived with the Smiths (and later others) in Akron homes. It is a myth that they recovered in an afternoon or in four easy lessons. They shook. They shivered. They fidgeted. They forgot. They were ashamed, insecure, and guilt-ridden. But they learned from the Good Book what a loving God had made available. Obedience to God’s will was Number Three. They were expected to walk in love and to eliminate sinful conduct from their lives. Growth in Fellowship with their Heavenly Father was Number Four. At the homes, they had daily Quiet Time (Bible study, prayer, asking guidance, reading a devotional, and discussing Anne Smith's Journal). They shared their woes and problems with Dr. Bob, with Anne (his wife), and with Henrietta Seiberling. They also had personal Quiet Times in their individual lives or at their home. They had one meeting a week. No drunkalogs. No whining. No psychobabble. Just prayer. Reading from Scripture. Quiet Time. Use of The Upper Room or similar devotionals for discussion. Then surrender upstairs for the newcomer in a prayer session resembling that in James 5:14-16. The newcomer confirmed his decision for Christ. [This confession of Christ by which the newcomer became born again has been confirmed as a “must” by four different and well-known A.A. old-timers—J. D. Holmes, Clarence Snyder, Larry Bauer, and Ed Andy.] At that time, the "elders" (usually Bob and T. Henry and one other) prayed with him that alcohol be taken out of his life, and joined him in asking that he be guided to live according to God's will. Intensive help for other alcoholics was the Fifth element. Following the surrender upstairs, downstairs there were announcements about newcomers at hospitals. Religious comradeship and attendance at a church of choice were recommended but not required. Socializing. And it started all over again. There were sessions with Dr. Bob involving a moral inventory (as to adherence to the Four Absolutes—honest, purity, unselfishness, and love), confession, prayer to have the sins removed, and plans for restitution. Did it work? You bet it did. A documented 75% success rate among the seemingly hopeless, “medically incurable” alcoholics who really tried. That was primarily among Akron members. And the fact that they had been cured by the power of God was widely publicized across America. Soon, a documented 93% in Cleveland. That's why the principles and practices in early A.A.—the principles that were already working in the Salvation Army, the Rescue Missions, the YMCA, and Christian Endeavor—need to be part and parcel of our own A.A. learning. A.A. is certainly no longer a Christian fellowship; nor does it any longer require belief in anything at all. But, for those who do believe in God’s healing power today, a knowledge of the simple history is vital. As reported to John D. Rockefeller, Jr., by Frank Amos: It took abstinence. It took God. It took the Bible. It took a life-change decision. It took living consistent with the decision. And it particularly emphasized witnessing to others. It took fellowship. And it took time--lots of it. And it was all just that simple—no steps and no text book. Just a Bible and several Oxford Group precepts. Just abstaining from drink and avoiding temptation. Relying on the Creator and coming to Him through His son. Obedience to His will—both in eliminating sin and in living love and service. Growing in fellowship through Bible study, prayer, asking wisdom, and study. And helping others without thought of pay. As they often put it: “No pay for soul surgery" Each group, each fellowship seems to ignore the true roots of our fellowship. By excluding various religous types, by including all non-believers we set yet another uneven balance of power. However, as I explained before, we did not build, God did, and we cannot destroy it. Oh , we may have our differences, we may argue a bit, but when it all comes down to it, God will have His way. Actual Listing From the Big Book AA The word God - 67 times The word Religious - 21 times The word Creator - 12 times The word Religion - 8 times The word Heaven - 4 times The word(s) Higher Power - 2 times __________________ We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined pg 88 AA's Big Book

11-21-2009, 09:59 AM	#2 (permalink)
LuvinMe 9Nine9 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cali Posts: 310	Excellent post... I totally agree! The first time I was introduced to recovery, I remember the intake lady asking me: *What is spirituality?* I honestly couldnt answer the question, my spirit was totally dead! I think I stayed sober about 10 or 11 months. The second time around which was less than a year, I went cold turkey with only GOD's help. I prayed so hard, so many times a day. I was so afraid to go any where without prayer. I meant business and I know I needed GOD. He layed the foundation and I followed it. Treatment showed me other resources & things that I needed help with but yes my foundation is built on the man upstairs... __________________ How can you LOVE someone when YOU dont love YOURSELF?! Start LOVING YOU & love will be waiting!!

11-23-2009, 11:27 AM	#3 (permalink)
GotItFirstTime Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Dumas Texas Posts: 35	My opinion is that the greaest need of our nation, our church and our fellowship is take "religion" out of everything. Freedom OF Religion, not freedom FROM religion is the end all argument that keeps ripping us apart. I am to be unjudgmental to my buddist or muslim brothers while they insisit we remove all Christain Incons from the groups? Why. Spirituality or Spirit filled acts are just that, driven by the spirit. It is prefectly fine for everyone to believe however they wish BUT that means I to am going to believe how I wish! I believe in Jesus Christ and He is my Higher Power. You can agree or disagree but please do not try to tell me I am wrong. Long ago, I attended a group that would not put up a Christmas tree in fear of offending Buddist or Muslims. When ask how many Budist or Muslims belong to the group the answer was " NONE". Each member of that group was a Christian or agnostic. We see this today all across America and as far south as Fort Hood Texas! Fear! In spirituality there is no fear. Fear is not a spiritual principle! __________________ We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined pg 88 AA's Big Book

11-23-2009, 01:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
*cmc* Community Greeter Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: FL Posts: 14,239	my two cents' worth.... I'm pround of the fact that my country offers religious freedom to all. That is, after all what this upcoming Thanksgiving holiday is all about: the right to religious freedom and the responsibility of tolerance. Every year we celebrate it as we recall how the Pilgrims seeking a new land to practice their faith in freedom; learned to welcome, accept and cooperate with others who were not of their faith. It's the same as the Golden Rule of "do unto others..." __________________ We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. ~Albert Einstein

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