what now?

[utopia]

hi, ive recently lost faith in my Christian beleifs in something mroe existential, more broad and less dogmatic and structured. I no longer have faith in my church or in the bible as i findi t too "us and them" I dont know if i beleive in "god" at all or if i can even define it anymore or even in jesus?

I feel like my time with Jesus did save me and nourish me but now i dont need saving anymore, thanks for taking me this far but now I need holy spirit, something unnamed, something more broader and undefined. theres something like despair or grief in this, something like freedom but also concern over the definitions of morality, right and wrong, of insanity and delusion, of reality and my concepts of love before ideology. Love before religious doctrine? thoughts??

[rayofsunshine]

Let me ask you a question: Do you think God can tell a lie? Of course not; it would be impossible for Him to speak falsely. God is absolutely pure and righteous, and (as the Bible says) "there is no wickedness in him" (Psalm 92:15).

But this is what you are saying when you claim God doesn't love you! You see, time after time in the Bible God tells us that He loves us—and He can't tell a lie. He doesn't love our sin—but He does love us. The proof is that He sent His only Son into the world to take away our sins, and He did this by dying on the cross for us. Do you want to know if God loves you? Look at the cross, for it is the ultimate proof of God's love. The Bible says, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

But let me ask you another question: Do you think your emotions can ever lie to you? Do you think they can persuade you to believe something that isn't really true? Of course they can; it happens all the time. So whom will you trust: God—or your emotions? Only God is worthy of our trust.

Perhaps you grew up in a family that made you believe you weren't worth being loved, or there may be some other reason for your feelings. But don't trust those feelings! Instead, put your faith and trust in Christ, for His love for you is everlasting.

Hi Utopia,
I took these words from the Spiritual Help section on the BGEA: Billy Graham Evangelistic Association website.
Something to reflect upon.....
Glad to hear you are doing well in your recovery!

[mikefreak]

" I don't need saving anymore?" Forget it- your'e toast. Not trying to be a smart aleck, but it sounds like to me you still want to do things your "own way". I can not see, much less comprehend, being clean & sober without a spiritual life. I realize that faith ebbs & flows, & is stronger at certain times than others, but to throw away basic Christian concepts is to me, a recipe for relapse. Why make things so complicated & leave the path that has gotten you this far? Good luck.......................

[flying11]

In my time I have looked at many faiths, tried living my own way and gone from one extreme to the other. There are only 2 religions in this world: a personal working relationship with god through jesus (christianity) and a religion of works (all the rest). We live in a fallen world, full of people who do so much wrong (self included) and go to churches full of sinners. Everyone has had doubts the same as you.

What i do know is that the most popular books sold are personal development books, everyone is seeking something to make sense of why we are here and why by our own best efforts we have little satisfaction and emptiness in our lives. Needless to say these books provide no satisfaction and it's all based on our own best efforts.

I find christianity the only true way to have a life of any value. I've been a christian now for 10 months now and have seen massive changes in my life. There is no such thing as a non practicing christian. The most important sermon I heard at the start of my walk was "shocking youth message" by paul washer based on Matthew chapter 7 (please search for this on you tube).

Please look at Matthew 7 in the bible and study it with some decent study notes. I wish you well....

Steve

[utopia]

How do we "know" the bible is any different from any other book? Bible/ Jesus? missing parts of bible??? How do we "know" i am toast? isn't this just because of fear i.e. if anothers non-belief is true it makes my beleif that my belief is true shaky?

[Hurricane]

Sounds like Satan's working pretty hard on you.
Pray, then pray some more. I will be praying for you as well.

[jamdls]

Originally Posted by utopia

I feel like my time with Jesus did save me and nourish me but now i dont need saving anymore, thanks for taking me this far but now I need holy spirit, something unnamed, something more broader and undefined.

I lost my faith in organized religion when I was in my 20s but I never lost my faith in God, to me their would be no point in living. Later in my life I started searching for places of worship that were less structured and more open. Just yesterday I was driving home from worship and thought to myself I really enjoy going to this church, they follow the word of God not the do it our way or your no good.

The statement you made above sounds very arrogant to me, "thanks for the help but I don't need you anymore"? Would you also toss aside your parents/spouse/children when they were of no further use to you? What about repaying the debt? God saved my life, brought me back to life and I will spend the rest of my life showing my gratitude and love.

[cmc]

Originally Posted by utopia

How do we "know" the bible is any different from any other book? Bible/ Jesus? missing parts of bible??? How do we "know" i am toast? isn't this just because of fear i.e. if anothers non-belief is true it makes my beleif that my belief is true shaky?

We know from history and from those who actually witnessed the events, wrote them down and...from the prophetic verses. There are countless 'proofs' that the bible is true. Setting the faith part aside...the bible stands the tests of time and scrutiny by science, archeaology and other ways as well.

Utopia...I'm not able to do the work of discoverying the bible for anyone but myself. If you want it or not is up to you...I will say that I don't see how _anyone_ can criticize, much less comment on, matters that they don't know about.

Please don't misunderstand...I'm not criticizing you here...far from it. I see what is going on with you as a time of discovery- but remember that if you really want answers to your questions- it will be up to you to find them.

Sure...there are plenty of reputable ministries I can (and will..if you wish) direct you to; and these people can help you learn what the bible actually says- what it is and isn't about.

I heard Alistar Begg say this morning...that we must first learn what is true before we decide to believe it or not. Maybe that sounds idiotic...but what it means in a biblical sense is critical....it's about whether one will believe the bible or not. This seems to be where you are right now---wanting things to make sense to you, or to feel right before you accept them as true.

If I did that with an algebra book, I'd never solve the equations. If I do that with fiction...well, things might be interesting but most likely no harm would come to me. Many people view the bible as one of the greatest forms if literature ever written- but no one book has impacted this planet more than the bible.

I'm going to suggest that you decide if you want to actually learn about what it is you are so ready to reject. Read the bible, study it and pray each and every time you do that. You could also seek some f2f help- by attending a bible based church. If you still don't believe after that...well, wouldn't you feel like you at least know what you do beleive?

I wouldn't attempt to dissect the Buddhist, Islamic, Hindu..or any other philosphy or faith--- without at the very least doing the reading.

Keep seeking.

[rayofsunshine]

Q: Aren't there many good religious writings and religions that can show us the way to know God and experience eternal life?


A: Mr. Graham believes there is only one infallible standard—the Bible, God's Word. In it God has revealed all we need to know and all we can know about Himself. A true faith is based on the Word of God, while a faith that is based only on the ideas of men is not reliable. That is why it is so important for Christians to know the Bible and what it teaches, because there are many contradictory ideas and religions in the world today.

Although Christianity may be defined by some as a religion, it is more than a religion; it is a relationship with Christ. While the great religions of the world teach that men must do something for God to earn His favor and to gain heaven, Christ brought the good news that God has done something for men. Because Christ paid the penalty for our sins on the cross, God offers salvation—forgiveness of sin, friendship with Him, and eternal life—as a free gift to be received through repentance from sin and trust in Christ.

We believe the evidence shows conclusively that Jesus Christ alone gave us the full truth about God. Most of the founders of the world's various religions were men searching for God; they could give us only their own ideas about God. However, Jesus Christ made a startling claim. "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me ... For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it" (John 12:44-45,49). Now if this is true, we do not need to look elsewhere for the truth. That is why Jesus could say, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Was Jesus who He claimed to be? Yes! How do we know? Because He rose again from the dead. This act forever sets Jesus apart from all the religious leaders of the world. And it also means that He alone can forgive us and save us when we put our trust in Him.

Hi Utopia,
Glad you are still seeking answers. I have taken these words from Rev. Billy Grahams
website... www.billygraham.org ..... , under Q&A. If you still want and need answers, this is a good place to start your research. Keep posting, we are glad you are here!

[flying11]

Utopia - I have asked the same questions, pounded my fist when a prayer was not answered the next morning and went away from the faith for 18 years. I'm going to try to answer some of your questions without saying "because it's in the bible".

There really are 3 important questions:
1. did jesus ever exist?
2. was jesus god himself?
3. what's so great about the bible?

1. References to jesus can be found in history. There are the writings of josephus , suetonis (roman historians), the books of macabees, wisdom of solomen and the dead sea scrolls. They all make reference to either christianity or jesus

2. Lets be honest - if jesus's body was not resurected from the tomb to heaven he was not god, only a man and we have no faith at all. It would have been best for all concerned if the body had remained in the tomb. It was in the romans best interest for the body to remain there. Once the body had disappeared and then jesus reappeared the disciples went round europe spreading the message. Why would they have risked their life for a lie?

3. It tells of a perfect plan for our lives all centered around jesus. If we follow jesus we have a personal relationship with god, a new way to live and eternal life. It's not an easy road but a rewarding road. It is not a set of rules or law but a relationship with god through jesus who has set us free from our sins. It has never been disproved and all the revelations have come true. Even non biblical scholars from other religions consider the sermon on the mount as one of the greatest masterpieces.

God Bless

Steve

[jamdls]

Thank you Steve, gotta love the voice of reason.

[utopia]

Thanks.

this is my sharing so if this offends people it isn't about you.

1. I'm not questioning if Jesus was real. I believe he was really around as written in history.
2. I don't know. My decision has always been on the unseen, on faith and not on fact so I can never say with conviction. I only know that having faith makes me well. I relate to the story of a man in the Bible stories who turned to Him and found his blindness was cured. After constant questioning by the pharisees he couldn't answer if Jesus was the Son of God but only that turning to him had helped him. I admit that turning to this Jesus concept has helped. I just dont find its helping now. i feel people blame me for this rather than question their own faith or relationship with their Higher Power.

Im seeing Jesus as a messenger of what is really important "the message". sometimes i have the thought that now I have been saved/forgiven and this is the holy spirit now working in my life. or maybe that this concept was just what worked for me. I dont believe I can say "I know who God is and he is Jesus" This is only based on what I think, spiritually inspired or otherwise.

what is the message. to LOVE others....to have faith...to trust....that message is surely an intepretation. humans are not inclined to interpret the exact same message from anything so the Bible and the experience of faith also differ.

3. re the bible. The bible has a lot of things that help me to live life in a way that feels good for me. it also has a lot of things that I do not adhere to and i seriously doubt anyone does such as a woman being unclean for having a period or that if I marry after a divorce/death of spouse I am committing adultery or in demonic spirits being within me or that this concept of revelation is true or that being gay is wrong. Aside from bigoted views and abuse I also find that organising religion limits the expression of spiritual freedom and this has also seen me leaving the faith by other Christian believers disregarding other information and experiences as separate and "less true than" Biblical word...compared to historical texts written that were not included when the Bible was compiled or the interpreations and views of the many christian groups that were around after the death and possible resurrection of Jesus. I also am surprised when others are not aware of this information and choose to judge others by seeing their life as fact and that the problem is mine. I am becoming stronger with a faith in something but I cannot say whether or not that thing is Jesus. I cannot say that it's not. And I don't think anyone else can say for me either.

[cmc]

Utopia....I welcome the chance to hear your thoughts and questions; and I'm not offended at all by what you believe...which is why I wrote the following in my previous post:

Please don't misunderstand...I'm not criticizing you here...far from it. I see what is going on with you as a time of discovery- but remember that if you really want answers to your questions- it will be up to you to find them.

What I'm saying echoes the quote from BGEA in rayofsunshine's reply... that to believe in Jesus is to believe what he said about who He is...nothing more.You are asking questions in a Christian forum and hence have received replies with that point of view.

I hope you will receive those responses in the spirit which they are given: out of love and concern. Just as I offer to you my ESH in recovery...in response to your posts I'm sharing my faith. As in all matters of life and recovery it's up to you to decide.


God bless you.

[rayofsunshine]

Originally Posted by utopia

2. I don't know. My decision has always been on the unseen, on faith and not on fact so I can never say with conviction. I only know that having faith makes me well. I relate to the story of a man in the Bible stories who turned to Him and found his blindness was cured. After constant questioning by the pharisees he couldn't answer if Jesus was the Son of God but only that turning to him had helped him. I admit that turning to this Jesus concept has helped. I just dont find its helping now. i feel people blame me for this rather than question their own faith or relationship with their Higher Power.

What blame are you struggling with?

I know for me, I have often felt unworthy of being forgiven for my sins... unworthy of God's love because of things in my past. Because of my own feelings of unworthiness, I can tend to think others must view me the same way. Truth is they don't... they look at me with compassion and understanding... but I often can't see that because of my own feelings/ low self esteem. I know this is something I need to work on.


But, Utopia, you are worthy ... you are a child of God and he loves you very much no matter your past or present... he loves us just as we are.

I'd like to share this with you ....
Your experience can be that of the psalmist, who wrote, "He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand" (Psalm 40:2).

The key is to stop trying to convince yourself that God loves you—and accept the fact that He actually does! Perhaps the most important thing I can say to you is this: God loves you just as you are. He knows all about your past, and He also knows that because of it you can't imagine God loving you. But He does! Don't trust your feelings; they will mislead you every time. Instead, trust what God has promised us in His Word, the Bible.

You see, God doesn't love us because of what we are; He loves us in spite of what we are! In other words, we don't have to become perfect before God will love us. If that were the case, He wouldn't love anyone, because (as the Bible says) "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

How do I know God loves us? I know it because He sent His only Son into the world to die on the cross for our sins. Think of it: Every sin you ever committed was placed on Christ, and by His death He took them away. Don't doubt God's love for you any longer, but by faith invite Christ to come into your heart today.

again, words from one of my favorite.. BGEA: Billy Graham Evangelistic Association

Utopia, I know you are seeking different views from different forums and
I hope you'll be open-minded to all responses as we share from the heart
with you, done with compassion... not condemnation. Okay? It's a privilege
to share our ideas here... a learning experience really as we learn the views
of others "outside our little box." We appreciate you being here.