Communion

[respektingme]

My AH didn't take communion for years. He's always been active, but has been going to AA for over 10 years, so he has a desire to quit somewhat. Anyway, he was raised as a Baptist and we attended Baptist churches for 15 years. One Sunday, I asked him why he didn't take communion. He said it was "personal".

So, I told him I thought it might be a bit arrogant to assume his sin is more than Jesus could handle, and that rejecting the blood of Christ because his sin is somehow bigger than everyone elses sort of casts doubt on his trust in God.

Since then he started taking it. He's a good man with a horrible struggle. He grew up with rejection, hate and condemnation from a completely narcissistic Baptist mother. She blames me for his drinking, although he was an alcoholic long before I met him.

Spoke with her today. She told me my AH can not take communion. He has to ask for forgiveness and repent prior to accepting communion. What? We're all sinners, we all sin. I'm sure when my DH takes communion that he prays desperately for God to deliver him from this burden.

Anybody agree with her?

[cmc]

I would not take communion without the reflection needed to go before the Lord and repent of any known or unknown sin. If I hold a resentment I will not partake, until I have forgiven that person and let it go.

What I don't agree with at all is anyone telling someone else whether they can or cannot partake of the Lord's Supper. That is between God and that person and none of my business.

[respektingme]

I agree it is very personal. I also know that my AH struggles with self-destructive behaviors, self-doubt, self-loathing, guilt and a host of other condemning feelings. I'm pretty sure he's asking for forgiveness when he takes communion. He's just been told by his mother that he can't take it or isn't worthy.

And just today, she told me she doesn't know her son anymore. He's not the same person she raised. She's 67 and he's 48. He is exactly what she raised him to be. The person she thinks she knew was an object of her imagination, a trained son forced to jump through hoops to represent her in all her shining glory. She epitomizes the stereotypical Baptist in that she had a whole lot going on behind closed doors when her children were young that equated to abuse, yet she's super involved in the church. All her rules didn't work for herself. She's miserable. But all her rules have made those around her out of their mind. Nobody can live up to her expectations, not even herself. BTW, did I mention her dad was a raging alcoholic?

[Gertiegirl]

Hmmmm, yeah funnily enough - I had a mother like that too, without the religious side but definately the expecting perfection from me when apparently the same rules didn't apply to her.

Only question I would ask is does your church use red wine or blackcrrent juice for communion? I attend a Baptist church, and we use blackcurrent juice for communion so I always take it. If I attend a service where red wine is offered, I will take the bread but refuse the wine. This is because I feel that as an alcoholic, there is no way I would insult my saviour by drinking alcohol even in a small amount in the Lords house. I can't repent my sin, and then throw back a poison that I know Christ wants to heal me from. To me, its symbolic and done in rememberence of the blood shed so I can remember without the wine. Know what I mean? So anyway, yeah - thats just my take on it anyway. I know that my church uses blackcurrent juice because its symbolic anyway and its done for the likes of me in the congregation.

[respektingme]

It's juice. In the last 15 years I have attended Baptist churches in TN, AR, RI, IL, TX and KY, all have used juice. Now that I have finnnnnnally convinced AH that we could try out some Christian churches, we have tried 2 of those and they served juice as well. But man did I love those messages. I've heard the salvation sermon for 15 years. I came into this with no religious background. When I heard a sermon in a non-Baptist church, I felt like I could actually get my teeth into it. Was so awesome. My AH is struggling with leaving the Baptist faith. I asked him why and he said it's because it's all he knows. And his mother is deeply devoted to that particular faith.

Funny because he had coffee yesterday morning with a guy whose been sober for many years. He used to be a Baptist minister. He told AH he quit the faith because it was too legalistic. Woah. Just floored me at the timing. It was perfect. Because up until my AH realized I really wanted to try something else, he was plain determined. So maybe now possibly, AH can get past the rules and build a real relationship with God. The rules make it so hard. I love how Baptists do not drink, period. But they eat. And they can eat a whole lot. And several people in the church are actually addicted to food and their obesity is killing them. But they still gather around food. Just some of the thinking that doesn't make sense to me.

[cmc]

respectingme...I have found that where ever I go to church, school or for recovery- there will be some sicker than others. We are not here to bash denominations or criticize how others express their faith.
Let's get this thread back onto a positive note please.

[Gertiegirl]

Hmmmmm, sounds to me like Baptist Churches are very different in America then they are here! I would never consider my church legalistic, and I wouldn't say there are any from my church (even the Pastors) who never drink period. I'd have to just respectfully suggest you've been subject to some bad teaching. Also point to note - Baptist is not a seperate faith, it's still Christian, its just one denomination of the Christian Church. Its just some of the Holy Sacraments are practised differently, and maybe in America the preaching and worship style is very different. I'd suggest you try churches of different Christian denominations (Presbyterian, Anglican for example) and find one that feels more right to you and your husband.

I also have realised recently that I need to seperate my recovery journey to my faith walk. Maybe your hubby could look at that too. I need my Pastors and Church family to look after my overall wellbeing (emotional needs, physical support, relationships etc) but I need alcoholics, or specialised counbsellors to look out for my recovery. My Pastor has been trying to help me in this recovery thing for two years now and he just ends up frustrated because he can't possibly figure out how my mind is working, and cannot figure out why I would make the choice to pick up that first drink. He doesn't realise that I have no idea either - it doesn't make sense even to me but I still do it. So its too difficult for him to help me. Another alcoholic (and most drug or alcohol counsellors you will usually find are long term in recovery people themselves) knows how my brain works. I've had to seperate that entirely.

As for communion - Christ knows whats in your heart, so I don't actually repent my alcoholism at communion. I confess and repent sins that have been ongoing during the week, and ask for healing of this disease. I went through a phase where every week I would confess, repent and swear not to do it again, and then still did. I ended up constantly feeling guilty, and it was not productive. I think my worst pity party was the day I was baptised, I got drunk that night. I held onto the guilt for that for over a year! So communion was a weekly attack on my consience. Now I view my alcoholism in the category it should be in, which is as a disease - then I DO have to continually lay it down before the Lord, but I aint going to carry the guilt! Everyone knows John 3:16, but remember also John 3:17 "For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (Emphasis mine).

Hope some of this helps, not just me babbling and rambling! LOL.

[cmc]

Thanks Gertie...I agree with you on all points. I find my recovery in Alanon not in my church. My faith has everything to do with how I try to live but I never found the kind of access to it....or I should say that I was not able to utilize that faith in the way I do now by working a non-religious program. It seems so paradoxical.
What you shared does help and makes perfect sense to me.
Thank you for sharing.

[CarolD]

I think any sect can be beneficial
if you are seeking Gods word.

...I was raised as an American Babtist
then Southern Babtist and I now am a Methodist
who often attends other denominations.

When and how I take Communion
is between God and I.

Blessings to all who seek salvation

[Dee74]

I don't often get the chance to post here, and I'm certainly not trying to cause a brouhaha - I'm genuinely interested.

I've seen references here that seem to suggest alcoholism as a sin, and something that could be repented at communion - why would someone repent their alcoholism?

Repent their drunken actions sure, repent the harm done to ourselves and others through our alcoholism - fine, but alcoholism itself ?

Do some churches -some christians - still see alcoholism as a moral weakness ? Or have I totally misread here?

D

[Gertiegirl]

I dont know what the Original poster here thinks or has thought darl, but I know for sure that my senior pastor, if not my church, sees this as a sin issue for me. I have been battling this out with him for 2 years or more. He see's it as sin, and I can give you bible verses that have been thrown in my face time and time again. Galations 5:19 is one... drunkenness is listed there... Part of the reason why I have the words Gal 5 (although its Gal5:1 that is intended, ie "It is for freedom that Christ has set you free, stand firm therefore, and do not let yourself be bound again by a yoke of slavery") tattoed on my left leg - to remind me that I am the sinner here, and this is my biggest sin. The deliverence ministry they have tried is and was amazing... I know that he prays for me daily.... to rid me of the bondage satan has placed on me. I still believe it is a bondage, but am beginning to see its an illness - I need healing not deliverence... An alcoholic (I met him at AA months ago, he has 25 yrs in recovery) doing the Alpha course at my church challenged me on that the other day - hence I am beinning to see it in a different light. As a disease, not a sin. But certainly not the message I got from my church....

Why is that? What are your thoughts on the subject???? PM me if ya dont want to be public, but Id be very interested in your views!

Its such a relief to come to this forum and consider recovery from a different perspective. Wow - a disease, not a sin! Im still getting my head around it!

[Gertiegirl]

Sorry to the OP, whilst still on topic - I may just have hijacked your thread!

My apologies, but my ???? still stand. Thanks and luvvies!

[americanasap]

it says in 1 Corinthians 11 to let a man examine himself and so let him eat and drink....it is a personal exercise for everyone who is a true believer and not something that should be forced on someone...if they are living in sin without judging it...they should refrain until such time as they judge whatever that matter is before God.

[respektingme]

Sorry if I sounded divisive about Baptists. It's just my own personal perspective. Really, to each his own. My frustrations have come from being locked into attending a type of church that I didn't feel comfortable going to, just because my husband refused to attend any other type of church. I thought we were better off going as one family than to split up and go to different churches. But thankfully, he's starting to seek out new avenues to see if there are other things out there to help him stop. Putting all his eggs in his particular faith seems to cloud the issue of having a relationship with God. Make sense? He just puts more weight or clout in the title. I'm more into going where I hear God. I don't want to put words into my husband's mouth, but I don't think he's been hearing from God either. Going to church on Sundays has been nothing more than a routine for several years now. I want to hear God, feel God, know God, etc. I don't want to sit there wondering whether what time it is and where we'll be going for lunch.

Again, I know several truly devote Baptists who seems to have a very strong relationship with God, so I'm sorry if I sounded like I was bashing the Baptists.

Gertiegirl - I hear you about the sin vs. disease angle. My AH grew up very much thinking that it's a sin and he still believes that to this day. But he also says it's an incurable disease that is slowly killing him. He spends to much time either fighting "sin" or succumbing to the "disease" that it's a philosophical coin toss. Bottom line is, drinking is killing him. As I heard an AA leader say once, "You'll all stop drinking someday, even if you drink yourself to the grave, you will eventually stop."

And one last thought. My AH is really, really good at creating an image for others. And he is so wrapped up in it, but it's like a present with a big bow on top and nothing inside. He knows the bible really well. He can talk about the bible inside and out. But I don't see that he's spiritually alive at all. I'm not judging him, I'm just saying that from what I've seen, I think he's given up on his relationship with God.

So, (and we have had this discussion) according to AA, he is waiting for God to take away his cravings. Well, he waits and waits and he's still waiting. Meanwhile, we go to church and go to church and he's still waiting. I sometimes think the only reason he goes to church is so that he can use the excuse that he's going and God still isn't delivering. Make sense? I think if he wanted sobriety, trusting in God would definitely help him. But he's just going through the motions.

Pray that he opens his ears to hear God's word wherever we go. And Gertie, thanks for that passage: John 3:17 "For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him". My AH grew up in a very, very condemning household. His mother arrives for a visit in a few hours. She told me yesterday that if she suspects he's been drinking, she's going to let him have it. I told her that I won't dictate what she should say to her almost 50 year old son, but that I think it would help if she told him she loves him. She's an ice cube.

[respektingme]

Originally Posted by americanasap

if they are living in sin without judging it...they should refrain until such time as they judge whatever that matter is before God.

That's a little confusing. My husband judges his drinking and himself. He truly hates himself. He hates that he drinks. He hates that he's an alcoholic. He think he's lower than dirt. He has a 20-year class reunion in a few month and he's been freaked out about it for several months now. Wants his teeth whitened, to lose weight, etc. He is by far the most handsome, successful man out of his entire class. But he still hates himself and thinks he can't measure up.

So, if he lays his sin before God and asks for forgiveness and deliverance, then takes communion, I don't see the problem.

My MIL works in a church. She absolutely despises a woman she works with. She said she doesn't take communion during the times that she is actively raging against this woman with contempt. So when things are calm, she takes communion. When she wants to choke this woman, she doesn't. Isn't that a bit like borrowing sin? She knows she's going to want to choke this woman in the future and hasn't removed the hatred from her soul, so by her own rules, how is this any different than telling her son he doesn't qualify to take communion?

[cmc]

Originally Posted by Dee74

I don't often get the chance to post here, and I'm certainly not trying to cause a brouhaha - I'm genuinely interested.

I've seen references here that seem to suggest alcoholism as a sin, and something that could be repented at communion - why would someone repent their alcoholism?

Repent their drunken actions sure, repent the harm done to ourselves and others through our alcoholism - fine, but alcoholism itself ?

Do some churches -some christians - still see alcoholism as a moral weakness ? Or have I totally misread here?

D

The bible talks about two kinds of sin; willful and the inherent sin, which is the human nature we all have. Both have the same penalty- and both are covered by God's grace when we by our own will seek and ask for it.

I don't see anything wrong with asking God to remove the power that alcoholism has over a person, that is what recovery is about. To repent about having a struggle? I don't think so.

As far as blaming somebody who is sick...for being sick, I've been on the receiving end of that lots of times. That's why I attend Alanon! There are those that _I_ refer to as sick... who place ungodly judgements on those who did not choose to suffer. Religion can become an addiction too. It feels good to be 'right' and to 'help' others and that can become a very ungodly thing jmho I've been there and as they say..have the hat and tee shirt.

I've had people tell me that the reason my kids have diabetes is because their dad and I don't have enough faith! That is where I do what my old friend Rich said to "give them the left foot of fellowship" lol. I stay clear of them if they continue with the blaming and accusing. It's not godly to accuse or blame fellow Christians and God isn't pleased with those who do: "The accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accused them day and night before our God, has been thrown down." Rev. 12:10. My enemy would accuse me when my Lord offers me love and forgiveness.

I love this verse: Jesus answered, "It was not this man's sin or his parent's sin that made him be blind. This man was born blind so that God's power could be shown in him." John 9:3 (And then Jesus spat in the mud, smeared it over his eyes. When the mud was washed over the blind man was healed.) Note that all the people were interested in was finding whose fault it was....nobody but Jesus cared about the poor blind guy's problems.

I've observed many within and out of my faith who still view alcoholism...and things like depression, diabetes, multiple sclerosis, bipolar etc...as things that can be cured by faith alone, or even by willpower. I do believe in divine healing, but it doesn't happen at my bidding. It's really very sad that those in pain are not always accepted, but I guess that's another story. From my experience...when people see such intense pain or problems it makes them feel uncomfortable or actually scared out of their wits that this could happen to them or somebody they love. That's when the rationalizing begins and the blaming starts. It's all self centered and fear based.

My husband is handicapped and when he used to use a wheelchair most people on the street were kind but many were patronizing at best and cruel at worst. Christians are people too and it's no excuse but it is the reason why some of them act the way they (I/we) do. I've dealt with many of my own resentments towards many Christians and non Christians who have played the blame game.

The whole idea of one drunk helping another...specifically the idea that it is only one drunk that can lead another is biblical. I don't have time to look up the specific scriptures that all contain the words 'one another' but these verses instruct us to comfort, rebuke, serve, forgive, speak the truth to, honor etc...I find it amazing how all those things are what works to share recovery from this disease.

I know that when I go to Alanon and share I will be respected and not judged. I will also hear the truth and learn to do better the next time...but nobody is going to blame me for trying my very best and still having the tendency to enable, fix or do for others what they need to do for themselves. I settled that a long time ago. I am not to blame for anyone's addiction or alcoholism, and I learned that in Alanon...not in church.

So, Dee to answer your question, some people within the churches probably do see it as a sin or moral issue and I'm sure that some of the leaders do too. Almost all of the churches I have attended do not see it that way and a whole lot of people there are in some form of recovery and doing great.

Repent of their alcoholism? I've heard many fine Christians say thanks to God for it.