Deep Question..

[Mercedes1]

I was presented with a CD last night of Bill Wilson himself explaining his story. It only got as far as he, Dr. Smith (I think)..his first recruit, and then it ended. Im sure there is more but not on this CD.

There is no doubt in my listening ear to Bill Wilson's own words the spritual side of his AA conversion was in deed Christian. The Oxford group was a non-denominational CHRISTIAN group of people that met to help eachother with the early Christ spiritual lifestyle emphasis. They were basically a group of people helping people BEFORE the orthodox approach to Christianity took off (beurocracy, heirarchy, denonimations, moralism, legalism).

Wilson doesn't specify (on this CD anyway) specific acknowledgment of Christianity being the only key faith but it WAS the faith behind the revelation of who God ws to Ebby, the primary soul responsible for helping Wilson recover that in Wilson's own words "took his hand from out of the cave", the Doctor and the Oxford Group. Plain and simple. ALL CHRISTIAN FOUNDED.

The 12 steps were actually 4 - 1) brutal honesty of your life, 2) direct, confidential sharing of this honesty with another person, 3) making amends to everyone to your errors and 4) asking God's help with all these 4 steps.

My question is...WHERE then did the AA philosphy go to "A God of your understanding". Wilson did mention Ebby (his friend that first witnessed to him) told him belive in a God of your choice but his God, Ebby's and the Oxford were all Christian.

I still struggle when I hear people in AA rant and rave they are sober 17+ years but they still have no idea who God is. I have heard this more than once. My gut tells me I am at fault to not mention Jesus in meetings..I mention everything about who He is to me but keep his name as "God" because I don't want to offend the one's that don't choose to call Him by name.

But Wilson said over and over His initial problem was the personal relationship of God, not who God was. Jesus is the only God that offers a personal relationship.

Anyway, I basically was told by one lady who recently shared shw was distraught, discontent and irritable after 17yrs sober..she has been "seeking" in her mind rightfully how the Big Book suggests the steps are about. She believes in AA and has followed "the program" to a tee. But after 17 years this woman struggles with knowing God.

I have to ask myself does this woman WANT to find God? Do the AA'ers that conveniently get sober but never CHose to call God anything but "their own understanding"..are they simply pulling back the reins to their life because they have what they want and don't want any more? I can bet they were not like that in the beginning. The God that Bill Wison talks about filled with unconditional love, compassion, forgiveness is a God of only one truth..Christianity. And He if He is personal..He has a name, He is to be known and its not blindly when we die to be whatever you say or I say. I just can't get how people can say a Budhist..who believes Christ was a prophet, an athiest..who says Christ was a nut, to an agnostic who basically says God is not defineable..that the same (God of all)..is all right in all? How can that be true when Jesus says if you don't believe in me then you don't know God? How can that be right for those that believe but totally ok for those that don't and the result is the same when we die..we are all right? It is meaningless??? That is not truth but complete insanity with no "orderly direction" at all. Is this just me in seeing this????


How much are we offending God by not mentioning Christ in these meetings? I don't think it is against the Big Book at all. Now that I have heard the Wilson testimony his own conversion was the God of the Bible.

BUT, I have not heard the tapes surrounding the story behind "the God of your understanding concept". He did go as far as talking about when you first approach another alchohlic you first related to his problem, then the spiritual side. Otherwise he will not listen. But when you get the spiritual he suggests nothing about not knowing who God is,,he specifically says personal relationship God..and his was Christian. How can I not mention this..a god is not GOD!!!!!

How can AA now thrive on you can have God be whatever you want him to be..a chair, the group, a tree??????

To me that is exactly why you have sober people, like this woman of 17yrs, and she is still seeking?????? I don't think God wants us to be seeking forever, He wants us to KNOW HIM, FIND HIM, then follow Him. We can't follow someone we don't know???

Can anyone share thoughts on why AA NOW discourages people to God of the Bible all while the Big Book, Bill Wilson's conversion was all in conjunction to that? Since I didn't hear the Bill Wison verion behind that..does anyone know? I'd like his own words since he was in fact coverted by Christ..how then did he create a movement that is "open" to a God of whatever?

Page 164...- I quote: "You must remember your real reliance is always upon HIM". ....to me, HIM is not a chair but a loving, personal God who (if personal) must have a name??

[toad]

You need to read the book "AA Comes Of Age." and "Pass It On," also "Dr. Bob And The Good Oldtimers."

The answers to your questions are in these books.............

You wrote: "Can anyone share thoughts on why AA NOW discourages people to God of the Bible all while the Big Book, Bill Wilson's conversion was all in conjunction to that?"

This is not true, must be some of your own BS.

AA is not about salvation........it's about staying sober........don't mix it up.

[anvilhead]

The God of OUR understanding allows everyone to develop their own unique relationship with their OWN Higher Power, not yours.....it becomes all inclusive, open, FREE to the discretion of the individual. Just as i wouldn't not go into YOUR church and start cussing or ranting on about Buddha, out of respect, you could offer that same respect in meetings. The primary purpose is to get sober, not to make converts.........rejoice in your OWN relationship with YOUR beliefs........let others work out their own.

[Mercedes1]

AA is not just about not drinking. If that is all you want of it then why go back after you stop? Most of the folk's I see in meetngs are talking (as this woman of 17yrs did) of how her life sucked, her relationships were not working, she was always angry tired....

Isnt' the God of YOUR understanding the same God that taught you how to live life on life's terms..TO stay sober? It wasnt about just "not drinking". If we are to live life on life's terms ..seems to me the logical thing is to keep listening to the God that defines this. Why listen to the first few things then withhold the rest? When does life mean just being sober.

Sobriety to me is spiritual freedom and spiritual freedom is living life..ALL LIFE.

I am not out to push anything down someone's throat...but if I share a gift of sobriety then I share a piece of life and the source is the same that got me to not drink.

Why all the talk about rage, feelings if this was all about drink?

To limit God to just what you want is exactly why I got to AA in the first place. True freedom I have to live the first 3 steps in all facets of life..and kinda find that hard relating to my God as a chair.

[anvilhead]

the FREEDOM is that YOUR God CAN be a chair, or whatever.....so that the doorway is wide enough for ALL who seek relief from Alcoholism....everyone should be have the right to claim their beliefs as fervently as you do! AA is one path, one method for those for whom alcohol has become a problem......because it deals specifically WITH drinking and the many and sundry "reasons" why we drink..........

did your path to sobriety go thru AA? or was the GOD of your understanding alone enough? sometimes we need help.........we need to see others with the same affliction who have found a way out.......we need each other, from our various walks of life, experiences, tragedies, beliefs and hurts, the collaboration of so many who shared one same commonality........booze. and all the destruction that it brought.....

[CAPTAINZING2000]

I hear people say they're Christian and most likely wouldn't stoop so low to take the people down and out I have to a meetings.

We do close with the Lord's Prayer and ask anyone that wishes to join in.

With all the different Christian churches with each having their own doctrines, it's best to keep the denomination factor from the meeting.

I've always believed this saying to be true ever notice how some people like to tell you their religious beliefs but, they never seemed to want to hear yours!!

[Mercedes1]

I get the philosophy behind coming in. And yes, I needed AA but not because Christ wanst there it is because He showed me anther side of Him, the side I needed as you so intuitively put it..helping eachother through shared crises...tragedies, beliefs and hurts. I was one of those that believed but to my disadvantage forgot how to take the first step. Church and the Bible was a blur because of my constant obsession to alchhol..so I totally get your point. I

believe in freedom to chose.

I think what provoked this thread is the woman of 17 years. It is hard for me that knows God to hear this 17yr veteran of AA still be struggling with the relationship which to me was her issue..she definitly had the AA gig down.

At some point quoting principals isnt enough.atleast for me and it appeared to her. It helps to know who God is to see the big picture to understand more of why bad things happen to good people. I would become bitter to keep having to be diligent if I didnt know God and felt my sole purpose was just to get through one crises and get stronger for the next.

Salvation is more than when I die..it is now, in this world. He is preparing me..helping me (personally not blindly) and it is that relationship behind the principals of knowing who He is that keeps me motivated..otherwise it would be easier to drink as we all know as soon as we get through one crises another is waiting.

anyway I do share so any way at meetings it is because I keep it so glossed over on the Jesus thing that I was feeling "bound" but I am not. I share many times ...most people like what I share and don't get offended. I think I was more offended at myself cause I would like to have shared more to this woman ut felt not in the right place? I guess this woman was on my heart so all I can do is pray. She is a budhist so I'll leave that as that.

[anvilhead]

i can totally relate to being mystified that after 17 years someone has yet to get the Higher Power thing down......i mean you'd think BY NOW something would have taken root.......i have to remember (often...!!!) that everyone has their own path, and their God has an eye on 'em.....

it IS a shame when some people get the AA thing.....but stop there....instead of being their framework for creating a life, they confine themselves to AA.......maybe that's what they need to do......maybe to explore beyond the 12 steps and traditions, they operate safely within...???? sober's gotta be better tho, than being wrapped around a telephone pole......right?

i think you have a good thing going, your conviction, your interests, youre curiosity.............may you enjoy endless days of peace......

[best]

Mercedes1


Before AA, people died because help was not available.
Short version of history...
You want help? Become a Christian and we will help you.

Bill was at a point of disbelief..not unbelief. The point when we don't really know what we want to believe or accept. Ebby passed him a rope that he could hold onto... God as you understand Him.

When I was in my selfish drinking stages and dry drunk stages...those who tried telling me about Jesus would get an ear full. I wanted nothing to do with what they were sharing. In part because of how some were sharing but mostly because... My first denial stage was acceptance of what alcohol was doing in my life. Till I was ready, I was not going to accept the truth...so denial reined.
When my life reached a point I was ready to hear the message of the Lord... my final denial lifted and I accepted the truth of Jesus.

I believe that Ebby knew what took me a few years to find out... drunk and selfish, I wasn't going to listen to anything but my needs before me in the moment.
Once a person is clean and sober...at such a point they would be more open to listen to the truth of the Lord.
It is their choice...just as we would share how to find recovery from drugs and alcohol for those seeking, when the time is right, we can share recovery from sin through Jesus for those who are seeking.

I beleive it was St Francis who said (paraphrased) Witness to others and if needed use words.
Or to say... let our life be the example that will have people say... I want what they have and when they ask....we share the Gospel (Good News)

[Lily]

Okay, so this is how I see it. When sharing I have in the past said my HP whom I chose to call Jesus.......then I share. I used to say that in San Diego, I have not this time around.

I also go out on Tuesdays with my church street witnessing. We use the method of Evanglism Explosion. The first 2 questions we ask are: 1) If you were to die today are you 100% sure you would go to heaven? 2) If you were to stand before God in heaven and he were to ask me why he should let you in, what would your answer be? These are the 2 diagnostic questions. IF they should answer anything besides 1) YES 2) Trusting in JESUS Christ alone, then they do not understand the gospel message. The message is FREE GIFT. Most will say, 1) I hope so 2) because I am a good person. Then we ask them, Can I tell you how I know for certain how it is that I know I am going to heaven when I die and how you may also? If they say NO, or do not want to hear anymore, then say thank you and continue on your way.

That way you will NEVER EVER be accused of shoving the bible down anyone's throat.

YES! I do believe the fields are white and ready for harvest! YES I do believe we are to learn how to effectively share our faith in all instances, however I do not think an AA meeting is the time to do so. I have talked with ppl AFTER the meeting one on one. I do not preach at meetings. I do pray for opportunities to share Christ with others.

I do think a lot of ppl there are searching, BIG TIME however, you must be polite and always ask permission, then have something ready to share.

I have read over the years "share the Gospel, use words if necessary" I must say I disagree with that. We must always keep our witness at meetings and everywhere, (be a good witness) but how will they know unless we tell them. I think about how I came to Christ. Someone had to share the good news with me. Pray for opportunites, NEVER ever debate or argue and always ask permission first and then you can never go wrong.

3 weeks ago I had the opportunity to share Christ with my AA sponsor! We prayed and she received Christ. She was at my home. Several months before that it was 4 teens at the mall. They all prayed and received Christ, however like the parable of the sower, I do not know for sure where the seed fell. I am just trying to be obedient and opening my mouth no matter how terrifying it is! We are NOT CALLED TO SAVE PPL, the Holy Spirit saves, so we can rest in that......

Also, I always thought I had to befriend ppl first before I could "earn" the right so to speak to share my faith with them. Well I worked in a large office building in San Diego for 5 years. I befriended everyone hoping for that opportunity and never shared Christ one time. Then I moved away. Chances are when you wait too long to share, you never will because then they become your friend and you feel you have too much to lose. (who wants their friends to think they are a fanatic?) no one EVER EVER asked me about my relationship with Christ. They would just appologize if they accidently cussed in front of me. I just waited too long.....for that perfect opportunity and it never came cuz i was too chicken.

That is what I have learned in Evanglism Explosion. I have done 2 semsters and just started my 3rd. If you google the program you will find more about it. This is another reason I am so excited to be clean and sober. I can once again go out and share my faith, in libraries, malls, laundry mats are awesome cuz ppl are there, bored and waiting.

And finally, sadly there are a lot of ppl out there who are dying even clean and sober and will still go to hell without the saving faith of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation, but it is their choice if they have rejected the truth.

Blessings, Sheila

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Just cause, the person had 17 years doesn't mean happiness.

I can count my troubles each day or, I can count my blessings.

It's better to gravitate towards people that have serenity in all walks of life.


From a Christian aspect working in AA and all areas in my life, I have to be of service to other people, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

Having a pity party is lonely.

I'm sober today, I've ate, I've got a roof over my head, I've got a job and I'm healthy. Every thing else is just frosting on the cake.

I go to bed at night and always say a prayer of thanks. I don't ever want to go back out and take my will back after giving it to God to do with me as God sees fit.

Serenity is an inside job, you can't buy it, it all begins with an attitude. Every day is a gift given to me by God to do with it as I believe God wants me to do with it. I can have a bad moment in a day now but, I don't have to have a bad day because of it.

[best]

Originally Posted by anvilhead

it IS a shame when some people get the AA thing.....but stop there...

Yes and the same shame happens in churches as well.
We reach a plateau that we never could have even dreamed of reaching.
WOW! Life is grand. BUT... there is more. I am content where I am at, why seek more? Jesus said He wanted to give us life and to give it in FULL abundance. So why do we as Christians plateau at a place we feel is good enough?
Paul says run for the prize...not accept second place.

We are each at our own point of growth and as it says in the Lord's prayer...
deliever us from temptations (don't give us more then we can handle) Some temptations come from God as trials that help us grow.
In God's time... The good work I have started in you I will see to completion.
We need be listening and striving for the prize if we want to grow all the faster.
So even as Christians by word and deed...we can plateau the same as any one else.
Jesus wants the best of life for each of us (spiritual life)... do we want it or will we accept second place?

[Mercedes1]

Thanks to all..good stuff.

[Mercedes1]

jj

[Val-light]

I agree, the road that is well-traveled is not without. Traveling beyond the norm is different and uncomfortable and interesting. Best of wishes while on your personal journey.
val

[NoMoBeer]

Originally Posted by toad

You need to read the book "AA Comes Of Age." and "Pass It On," also "Dr. Bob And The Good Oldtimers."

The answers to your questions are in these books.............

You wrote: "Can anyone share thoughts on why AA NOW discourages people to God of the Bible all while the Big Book, Bill Wilson's conversion was all in conjunction to that?"

This is not true, must be some of your own BS.

AA is not about salvation........it's about staying sober........don't mix it up.

I am not that familiar with you, toad (trying to get back to being more involved with SR again) but I like the way you think!!!

So many great responses to the original post -- just to chime in... I don't worry about others' spirituality or if they have or have not gotten the program. I can only offer my experience, strength and hope... I know that my journey led me to Christ, others don't go down the same path... I also know that had someone approached me when I first got sober to turn my will and life over to a specific God, I would not have been ready to hear it.

I think Bill W. wanted to give all alcoholics a shot at finding their spiritual awakenings, their way... toad, I am going to check out those books you mentioned, thanks.

NMB