Christian question...

[Mercedes1]

Hi, Im back with another deep question...Im a strong believer in its what is behind the drink that keeps us sober..living well which equates to living for God which equates to "doing what He says".

12yrs ago I started Tithing. I tithe from Gross since that is what I learned from a series given out by Charles Stanley on Financial Security. I believed what he said and felt if it's God's will..He will provide. It doens't have to make sense on pad/pen...He will take care of us.

He has..for 12yrs (and still is of course). HOWEVER, the last 3 months I have come to be in the Red. I basically had to forfeit the tithe this past month to pay my mortgage/taxes..alittle important too, don't ya think>?


Anyway, Im now at the point of..why did this happen? I have never been a huge saver...but have always had the money when it came down to it. So I thought this was a lesson in "spending to much". I have..not misunderstanding on that. But, because of this..and the fear it brought me..since alittle about me..I am a single parent, have a mortgage, taxes, responsiblity to raise a 12yr old in addition to myself...its only me (no other person to draw or fall back on). My parents all live in another state and although my father has been very genrous..lately my expenses have outweighed the tithe.

I put everything in writing and yes, without my tithe I can have a reasonable savings again for my daughter. As of right now, I have no savings for college or anything other than immediate incidentals.

My thinking is no other choice to but to change the "tithe" to a modest "gift". AA requires only 1.00 ans look at all we gain from it.

BUT, I don't want to do this..I feel I have no choice. I can continue to give the tithe..but will be in red again. I don't think that is God's will.

I read that He asks for living well, not sacrifices. But tithing can be seen as not so much a sacrifice but a form of living well in terms of obedience.

I am not against tithing but have never had a problem until now. Why did God allow this to happen if I didn't need to change.

Its not that I want too but to be honest..even w/out tithing My savings is modest. I have to think of my daughter and some times feel that my HUGE tithe which it is considering Gross 10% of my "secretaries" salary..to me it is a nice car payment..not a car payment but NICE, NICE car payment. And here I am single, raising a kid all by myself. I do not make 6figures..

Some times I feel I am paying the church people's college ed for thier kids, their house payments..but I know I can't feel that way. I tithed anyway feeling this way for many years as I know that is Satan trying to get me to look at my circumstances and project. God has always provide. I give for God.

But now I just can't seem to do this..and feel so confused and struggling. What is your thoughts.

[cookconfay]

I struggle with tithing too....I am also a single parent with NO help in the child support or expenses department! Last night I went to my single parenting class at church. We talked about finances last night....I've been through both Financial Peace as well as the Crown Ministries small group study. One of the women that leads the class said....churches use money to give to the poor and help the people who need it....right now you are one of those people. I give but it is not 10%. I do the very best I can and still have to rob Peter to pay Paul most of the time! I'm curious and anxious to hear views on this as well....

I feel like God knows what's going on with me and money. He knows I do the best I can, he knows I show up to work, he knows I pay EVERYTHING for my daughter!

[sugarssweetpea]

My husband & I have found that we are in a much tighter financial predicament when we don't tithe. To me, not tithing is not obeying God. To me it is also not trusting God to provide your needs. Sometimes we need to evaluate the other things that we spend money on. Maybe giving up something like cable or internet for example. Switching to the generic brands & doing all shopping at a wal mart or store of same price comparison. I also find that sometimes God tests our hearts to find out how much we really trust in Him. If finances are tight, what will be the first thing that they give up. Things of this world or things of God. I pray that God will give you the wisdom over finances. I pray for God to open your eyes & heart to follow His will for your life. Maybe God has some changes for you that you cannot see yet. I pray for you to be a good steward with all He entrusts to you.

[best]

Giving or not giving is a heart issue, not a bank account issue.

How much I give or don't give has to do with where my heart is at, not my bank account. The teens at my church wanted to go on a mission trip. My heart was saying... I wish I could help them and pay their whole trip. My bank account said... no way. I had no choice but to pray and ask God what His wishes were and then trust in Him to provide what He wanted me to give. The giving would be above and beyond my tithe amount. Personally, I see a 10% tithe as a bargain. God gives us 100% and we give back 10%? I like that math.
As for the giving to the teens... God gave me an answer one day. Any "found" money (money not earned or worked for or outright found) is what I would give towards the teens' trip. That very week at work we started getting a bonus. Every month for just over a year, we got the bonus.(no control over getting it or not getting it) Every week for a year I would find a minimum of at least a penny on the ground every time I would go to church. 3 times a week...I would find or one time per week... No matter how many times per week I would show up at church, I never showed up empty handed. I found money in the dryer at the laundrymat or on the steet or sidewalk (even with snow on the ground). God provided...all I needed do was trust and obey.
When it comes time for giving... tithe or not... We need ask ourself...is my heart in the right place with God? Is my gift pure and from my heart?
What we give is between us as individuals and God. He knows our heart and if we look inside ourself... we will know what is right and wrong.

Per the Torah (Old Testament) is where churched gather the ruling about the tithe. Bring 10 % into the storehouses. If we are to follow the rules of the Torah/OT... we are giving short by only giving 10%. Per God's law through Moses... our giving to the church should be up around 30%.
So what should we do and how much should we give?

In my opinion...
Give as the Holy Spirit guides you and give with a grateful heart in obedience and with trust of what The Holy Spirit guides you to do.
Giving is a matter of the heart...not the bank account.

Matthew Chapter 6 is a good place to start seeking answers.

Giving to the Needy

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Treasures in Heaven

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Do Not Worry

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

[cookconfay]

I understand the matter of heart thing....I don't mean to be "not" trusting God....I just have a whole stack of bills every month and some are in my father's name that I can NOT be late on or miss.......I do the best that I can with what I have to work with and it's not just about me.....I am the caregiver/caretaker of my child.

[Mercedes1]

...."To me, not tithing is not obeying God. To me it is also not trusting God to provide your needs...." Well I used to believe that...as stated, I have been tithing for 12years...GROSS pay, just like taxes are paid to the Govt. I also tithed any and all bonues and gifts...to the church. BUT, I am in the RED now. So...am I not trusting God to go ahead and still Tithe knowing full well I will not have enough for my Taxes, Braces for my daughter, etc. That, to me, is a more legalistic "martyr" approach to obeying God.

Unfortunately I do not have a husband to "co-tithe" with either. Everything comes from my bank acct and effort..even things where I could save money if I had a handy man husband..i have to go out and "hire". So, I don't think God is looking down on me any more on the TRUST issue, He knows my heart and doesn't judge me by a dollar - besides after 12yrs I think I have proven my trust. and, yes, to your point, on the tithing, He has not only come through for me but pressed down shaken and over flowing in the last 12years.

But "it is what it is" now...NOW...i AM IN THE RED. Its a question of tithing and letting my taxes go unpaid or paying my taxes and giving LESS tithe. ..You know, Jesus also said.."pay Caesar what Ceasar is due"...I think it God's will I pay my bills, just like it is to work, be responsible, etc.. I also have learned more recently that the 10% is NOT A HARD RULE. I USED to think it was a God rule (black and white, no comprimising). My church and others teach it. However it is NOT the case. I recently learned from a wise Christian I happen to trust and believe in, the Tithe commandment is a man rule (not God rule), and I quote..."...It is a tradition that man has acquired from the OT times of Moses"..".

So, for me, cutting out all the frivelous is really a decision only I can make. What you may call frivelous is your opinion...I am not living in a cave nor do I think God expects me too in New Jersy..with the expenses we have. I also have a daughter so realizing I could save money with no cable..no cable is basically no TV as where I live you can't get ANY stations w/out cable and does God expect me to live like that to TRUST Him? If I felt that way, yes, but I don't. I use cable to work for a living. Anyway..nuff said. I will close on what I got from this post as helping me and perhaps it will help you Cookkan Fay...

"...We live under grace not the law. God wants a willing heart, not a rule following robot.
The Holy Spirit will guide you and with your heart in the right place... God will be happy with what ever you bring for a gift to Him.
Our tithe (no matter the amount) is a gift to God, not a payment to the church. "

That is healing to me and not an act of me trying to be selfish and untrusting to God. Thanks

[best]

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

the Tithe commandment is a man rule (not God rule), and I quote..."...It is a tradition that man has acquired from the OT times of Moses"..".

"...We live under grace not the law. God wants a willing heart, not a rule following robot.

Maybe a better way of saying that would be this...

Tithe is a law from God through Moses but we now live under grace and the traditions of man have the 10% tithe as a guide for people who ask how much shall we give.
In the days of the apostles, people would sell property that they were not using or didn't need and give over the full amount for those who were in need.
They gave from their hearts. I would say that was much more then 10%.
The widows mite... she gave all that she had.
Luke 21
The Widow's Offering

1As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins.[a] 3"I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

As the Holy Spirit guides us ... our gift is a gift between us as individuals and God.
As a member of the church I fellowship at... my signing on as a member, I gave a pledge to the church in acceptance of membership that I will tithe as I am able. My agreement to tithe is a pledge that I should honor (let my yes be yes) so for me, as I am able, I shall tithe because of the pledge. As for all of my giving... as the Holy Spirit guides me...may I always be found to be obeying.

[Mercedes1]

I guess the key is "as I am able"...tithing should be budgeted like everything else. Personally I am at a point now where my cost of living has risen to the point it cannot be figured in within reason. So I guess I am "not able".

Ok Best,,now I am back to struggling w/this again? As I was tithing up till now. I feel "what did I do wrong"..."when will I get to a point of tithing again". Am I being disobedient...

There is never a good time to give 625.00 a month with one income, secretaries salary, a house pmt...if I wait for a time to do it again..will I? It was blind faith I started 12yrs ago..and it worked. So not sure what is up now??????

Our church doesnt seem to care if you are in red..it just says "do it".??? We can always find reason to say..well I have this and that so can't...that is why I just did it in past..I purposely didn't try to think about it much as I would find reason to not ..as my daughter for one..not knowing about losing my job tomorrow kind of thing. but I gave..and trusted..and here I am.

I know it was my spending that got me in the red..but it still doesnt seen to work for me to feel able to give the amt I was and be responsible moving forward now that I SEE my expenses on paper and what I make......

[sugarssweetpea]

Originally Posted by best

!

24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

[/i]

Our Sunday school teacher brought to my attention that you do not have to be wealthy to be serving money. If you worry about things concerning money, it is the same & you are serving money by worring about it. I never thought about it that way.

From personal experience, when my husband & I were both working we gave the tithe last, after all the bills were paid. What happened was that all of a sudden, we did not even have enough money for the bills let alone the tithe even though we were supposed to have it when we figured it on paper. When we realized this & started writing the tithe check first, on paper we should not have had enough money for the bills, but we ended up having the money and more. It absolutely did not figure that way on paper. That is one experience. We are now in a financial crunch due to poor spending. Spending instead of saving, counting on jobs before my husband actually got them (he is self employed), hiring employees & having to pay the payroll & taxes on them in addition to everything else. We had to really sit down & figure out what to pay & when. We have not paid credit cards in three months. We sometimes are late with the payroll (thankfully the employees understand). The insurances & car payments are late as well, but not over 30 days. As far as the single mom thing, I get that. We are a one income family of 4. I do not work. When my first son was born, I stopped working. We did get rid of the internet, cable & home phone for awhile. I was on wic for the baby. We eventually got all of those things back. The income my husband has also has to pay for schooling for his daughter from a previous relationship & child support. We do not have a steady income as far as knowing how much we are going to make a month b/c he is self employed. Sometimes people pay & sometimes they don't. SOme are every week, some are once a month, some are 60 days out & some are in the same boat as us & are sending nothing. I do understand where you are coming from. I just know that God will always provide for us. He will not let us down. I know that I do not see the bigger picture of what He is doing in our lives most of the time, He does. He is our creator. He loves us & wants what is best for us. I will pray for you and your situation.

[Mercedes1]

sugarsweetpea..thanks for your post and clarifying. You know, that is what happened to me. I guess for some reason I always knew if I put the pen to paper on exactly what I made and spent it would not read "resposible" to pay the tithe. So I never did "go there"..and as a result I have always had what I needed. But I felt guilty that perhaps I was not being responsible to doing the "other" part of what God says..budget, save. But I do get you. So if God against savings?

Having what we need not necessarily what we want. My old boyfriend used to say..I lived for the day. then he dumped me. He never got the tithe thing. I always looked at it as maybe i don't invest in the stocks and trade market stuff..but I invest in the one that will have the largest return. So maybe my guilt for not managing my money is not necessary. Maybe it is ok to not have as much savings. I am glad you said it that it didn't make sense on paper. That is what has happened to me. Maybe I should just not look at it.

But, there is also a feeling of if I just give less, I can manage now putting away a certain amt and seeing the rewards down the road. The struggle right now is why is that wrong? The last 3 mons watching myself have to use my credit card and borrow from my savings..made me feel not a good mom and person financially.

I have the abiltiy to do this..not much but can do this for the first time if I just lesson my tithe. I guess I pattern to AA with the 1.00 and see how much we gain from that. Anyway, I will continue to pray..I can cut back..for sure..stretch the money...but still feel like now that I see the expenses..it will definitly be continuing to be taking money off the credit card..it just doesnt feel right now . So it is a personal thing..but pray for me as I do NOT want to be disobedient and I have seen the rewards of tithing..that is what is so confusing now..I never was in the red before. Maybe it is just a sign to tighten up expenses as you said..and keep the faith with less. I Mean, I did pay my bills..so I was in the red alittle..is that so bad. I guess I thought the message on financial security was that we would not be in red when we tithe. But I am still here,making my payments..its the big picture. And in 12 yrs. this is the first time and I did over spend. So...

I guess I am learning a lesson just haven't figured out yet what to do with it.

[sugarssweetpea]

I will continue to pray for you. The pastor that teaches the sunday school class that I am in also talks a lot about storing your treasures up in Heaven instead of here on earth. He does not say that saving is wrong, but that obedience is first. He also talks about how we should realize that sometimes our wants are not our needs. If we have expenses that we consider needs, & God is not providing for them, then they are not really needs. Not according to God's plan for us. God will provide all of our needs, not our wants. I definately think that when something like this happens, He is always teaching us something. I will pray for quick learning.

[bballdad]

I consider my children high on the list of giving to.
I would also consider my family among the needy and my responsibility to give to them first.

Somewhere I have to set a list of pirorities concerning giving.It looks like I would be in the wrong to give to a Church who has money and with hold from my wife and children,and cause them to do with out.

The Big Book says I should pratice therse principles first in the home,and I consider generousity and responsibility a few of those principlies.

One thing I have noticed in my 19 yrs sober is there is allways a chance to give to others,others who are definately in need.

I try and remember it is God`s money,and God`s children,and I am a just trusted servant to care for His interests.With that in mind,I should pray and try and listen for His will for me and the family daily.

so,give what you can,even if it is 30 cents to Church,but do not neglect your family

[GrouchoTheCat]

I am in a position right now where I have very little in the way of money.

So I am in the Choir and do other volunteer work for my Church.

For me, I am doing what I can right now, and give of myself and my time.

Got to go sing now!

God Bless you all.

[rubycanoe]

tithing was from the old testament. it is not from the new testament. the new testament is give what you can afford. you are a single parent, i think you should not tithe for now if you are financially strapped. it is not a sin to not tithe. i try to give more as my income increases, if it is less i give what i can. do not feel bad about this. God bless