Church Lady Drama

[Mercedes1]

Hey, I wanted feedback to an issue that happened yesterday on my way in to my church. I am 7 mos sober..and must say I know the value of not holding resentments. However this was not an issue that I did to control, it was someone else that hit me out of no where and now I have had such a time to move past this.

The net is, it is not just "not having resentment"..you must work through them. In this case, I did nothing to deserve a resentment that was "presented" to me. I feel that it takes more than just "not having it" anymore but I feel some resentments need to be accountable...action needs to be done to get rid of them and that is more than just "moving on" and not having the resentment anymore.

So, my question is two fold: 1, was this lady right? and 2, How do I respond?

I was walking in to church and a lady stopped me and my daughter and identified herself only as a "Deaconess" at my church. She then proceeded to tell us this is "A house of the Lord and worship"..."Not the Beach"?!


Ok, now for all of you out there that have very conservative church services, dress modestly ...you don't have to respond.

My church has 2 services..first is conservative, traditional (yes, they still sing hymms). 2nd service is contemporary,,Christian rock, jeans, casual. I attend the 2nd serv but for the summer, we only have one and both services are combined. This is not my problem though, if this lady attends the 1st serv.

Yesterday I was running late and wore shorts. I have done this many, many times before w/out incident.

Were they alittle casual...yes. Was this the norm for me, no. I have also attended in summer dresses, jeans. But yesterday I was running late and grabbed whatever is clean and available.

I personally see nothing wrong with wearing casual and feel that clothing etiquette is in the eyes of the beholder and noones business to instruct others how to dress. Bottom line, even if I don't like what others wear and may have an opinion..usually it is more a dress that may not fit that person or be (IMHO) not "becoming" to their stature, etc...I keep my mouth shut becuase in the greater scheme of things..GOD DOESN'T CARE. Lets face it, if someone showed up at my church in a thong..that is RARE and you w/have to say the person may have more than clothing etiquette wrong with them. But even still, that is not for us to judge. just like we don't turn away...homeless, prostitutes..we don't judge peoples dress. Bottom line, I am not ANY of those..just had a bad morning and maybe not the best clothing judgement for that morning but WHO CARES?

I also say..to the women out there that see our dress as our responsibility to men's lust..as don't even go there w/me. I may be a minority but I am A Christian and read the bible and i just do not see Men's lust as MY RESPONSIBILITY? It is theres. If they are responsible to control their selves at work, and at the beach..church is no different. What I wear is my busines.s How they see me is theres. I could use countless examples...but will not take up any more time. Basically, I could wear a garbage bag and still have a guy find issue with my knees? Get over it and take responsiblity for your own eyes..just like you do with the TV, driving down the freeway..look away if it bothers you.

And for the passage in 1 Timothy 2:9, I don't see that as having anything to do with today's society and also take that as more ..don't use dress/adornment over your true beauty of action/heart. But, even with that said, only the person in that situaion is accountable for that..not someone else.

If you go that route, everyone coming in to church must pass a certain dress code gaged by someone..(who?) this church "Deaconess"? Who is she? Some people actually think makeup is wrong. Dancing is wrong? Anything above knee is wrong? God forbid 2 pieces?

I just think God doesn't care. And It is not my job to take other peoples inventory for their character defects how much more it is not anyone's responsilbity to take inventory on what they wear. Moreover, is it this lady's right to ruin my worship by "telling me" i was there for beach and not for God? How does she know my intent? She got all that from my shorts? I tell you this, it was only AFTER the confrontation w/her that I even looked at what I had on. It was HER issue, not mine.

At any rate, I left the service as even though I politely disagreed with her..had no time to debate..was on my way to service, Pastor already had started..and this lady knew this.

We cont'd and once in the church were so self conscience after her encounter we left. My dauther asked to leave from the front entrance and walk all the way around the church to our car ...even though we were parked in back and could have walked through the church.

So, resentment set in. She basically gave us no choice? We ended up not worshipping at all and had an awful day.

So, what do you all think?

Tried to get past this..thought she was spiritually blinded..good intentions maybe but wrong conclusion and approach? I mean a second grader would have realized that time and place for that conversation was NOT on my way into the service. She , as a Deaconness, should know this. So as I thought about,,my only conclusion was she wanted me out of ther.

So as my daughter and I left the church..at 10:45..5min after walking in...that was more respectful to God..not hearing the word at all?

So when I could not get past this. I wrote a letter to my pastor. I have a meeting with him and her as I need closure. I do not want to go to church and have this lady approach me again.

Now realize, if this was just any lady..and she simply told me her name,,,I would not bother..it was her "bad" opinon over mine,,but the fact she went at length to support her mouth by being a Deaconess I feel she holds a more accountable weight.

i have been going to this church for 8 years. I support the church financially, prayerfully and with service.

I teach Pioneer Girls to youth every Friday night for the past 7 years. I am a single, working parent (full time) and give up my Fridays for the kids at our church.

So the only reason I mention that..is although not a member of my church,,,,my church requires classes to be an actual "member" and attend bus meetings..I don't do that..but I do contribute very well to the church.

So, for that...I was really annoyed and really battling this resentment.

I need to speak to the Pastor but also she went for the juglar with my self worth, value and low self esteem which I am working on in recovery.

Which is another reason to resent this lady of "authority" in our church...she never stopped to recognize who she was talking too..does it really matter about my clothes...if I never go back?

Thank God I know enough about recovery, God and myself to not drink..but if there was ever a reason to drink..she is one of them.

[emmer]

Personally I don't think the lady should have said that at all...Instead what would have been more appropriate, would be - welcome to the service-
I really don't think God cares how we dress.

[best]

Mercedes

My being a man and the subject you bring up.... I will give answer in a very direct manner.
As for the verse in Timothy... The dress modestly is in reference to people dressing up to show off. Dress in modest means so not to bring attention to yourself.
Dressing up to say...I am rich look at me....being a show off.

Now as to how she did things... She could have done things in a kinder way but I say she is right just didn't use the right way to make her point.
The elder members shall teach the younger. A harsh correction is not the best way of teaching. In love and with gentleness we should deal with others.

Now as for causing the men to lust...

Paul tells us we can do all things that are acceptable in God's eyes. We are not llimited but are free to do.... then Paul tells us that he won't do certain things if they will become a stumbling block to others that may bring them to sin.

As said...I am a guy and if you were dressed in a provocative manner so be it.
I look at such dress as a kind of disrespect of self in some ways.
If you don't mind me looking at your ass for the whole hour...dress as you wish.
If you don't mind me missing the message because I am looking at your ass for the whole hour... dress as you wish.
Yes it is my responsibility to control my own action but I also feel it is my responsibility to not provoke or tempt others to come into sin because of my actions.

Hotpants or a full length dress... my mind is going to go where I let it but the hotpants do bring much more temptation to most all guys. Of my whole wardrobe there are no clothes in it that I wouldn't worry about wearing to church. Some may have me look out of place but none do I find not fitting to wear.
I will dress in a biker shirt and jeans or a 3 piece suit but every piece of clothing in my wardrobe would be seen as modest attire.
For me...if my clothes are not good enough to be seen in church...they are not correct for me walking about as a Christian in public either.

[Mercedes1]

BEST, XXXXactly. And that is just my point...what I wore to church is nothing I would not wear outside of church. Only issue was it was casual shorts (to her beach)..but we were not going to the beach..that was HER opinion..not reality. I had shorts, a tank with a shirt over it, sandals period. the shorts were the length I always wear. My daughter had on shorts alittle shorter than I like but they were not worn provocative..she is a stick and there is nothing hanging out. I didn't like the shorts because she has better ones. but I battle her on that every day not just church and yesterday didn't even go there as we were late.

What I wear to church is what I go to the diner in after, to the park in should I chose, movies and then AA meetings. Period. Some times, but not all, I will dress more up for church, come home and change. But yesterday I did not. It was 85 degrees, I didnt want to wear heavy hot jeans and have to change again when i get home.

And as far as the lust goes..I agree. it is MY RESPONSIBLITY to be accountable for myself on how people see me..but I am NOT ACCOUNTABLE to your thoughts. That is what you said.

My ass is not hanging out. And I do sometimes see women dressed for specfic IMHO "unnecessary" attn...but in my case I had no intention of doing that..and aside from my shorts being "in style" and the shorter kind..they were definitly not hot pants. Problem is, I see FASHION not short vs long. I wear what is in fashion.

And 1 Timothy is exactly how I see it that You see it...don't dress for attn and yet walk for righteousness as they don't agree. Your dress and yoru walk and your toungue and how you treat people in church and outside should all match.

This woman didn't have to teach me anything. I didn't even know her I am 46 yrs od and unless I ask her..she has no businss instructing me.

so for that, I respectfully disagree. If I was at a prayer meeting..or mentoring retreat..and she talked about that..i'd still disagree but politely so

The issue is what I had on I wear at home..and am not ashamed. So if its ok by God at home..why is church any different..hense why I go to the 2nd service..jeans are ok..casual shorts are ok..as is casual skirts!!!!

And I have not worn a full length dress in years. In software..we dress casual. Our busines office is casual...unless with customers or events. Church is 1 hr..to 8 hrs at the office, so even if I had an office bus ,..its not the same.

And as I said..the shorts I had on..I don't always wear.. Hasnt others dressed badly on any given day..I don't need some "deaconess" pointing it out. And she was wrong as she implied I was dressed for the beach and I was not.

[Mercedes1]

BEST, btw..one small point...dress for men is wayyyy different than women. Just look at the corporate world and ask a woman and man to wear business casual. Men basically take off a tie...

Women have to go to lengths to find suitable blouses, pants, closed toe shoes to fit in to that "model".

Many women..and I know this as I have talked with them about this..figure why bother....it takes just as much time and money to find the acceptable 'bus cas" attire..I minsu well just wear bus. Which is a dress, or nice pants/top/..maybe a blazer, pumps.

Bus casual for women is not much differnt than bus.. bascially they can be just as uncomfortable as business.

We have boobs to cover and big butts to hide than most men. We have figures that need to blend to certain styles that men simply don't have to worry about. SHOES with heals that make your back ache..you name it.

Some women are curvy, straight, etc.

That is just a thing to put out there about the closet issue. I am not ashamed of any of my outfits but I must say when I put on a tee top...it is simply a tee top..but if I have a big chest may look provacative to some..but it is still a tee to me.

[best]

You will never see me in a spedo *LOL*

I have 6 sisters, one daughter, one wife, 7 sister-in-laws, and 3 sons that chase after girls. I see all kinds of dress and understand the frustrations that women can go through (11 children one bathroom growing up as well)
As a leader at my church, I see many forms of dress as well.
As for how people dress and the results they gather from how they dress... I have seen two people (one in church and one out of church) that dress for results. Both were dressing to attract a man and with they way they were dressing...it was in style but was done so to attract a man in a visual sense.
Results that can be had from how we dress...
Show off your body and attract a man through his lust...you have a man after you for one reason.
Show off your modesty, kindness, compassion, and the Lord's love flowing out of you...You are going to attract a more Godly man in most cases.
We dress for the job to give an image that we hope will get results that are needed.
We dress for respect, or to portray an image that has people listen when we speak or we can dress to humble ourself so that others don't feel threatened by us.

I am not saying you need learn what I am posting, I am posting so anyone who reads may understand a little more.
I dress in a biker style because it is what works best when I ride. At times I may dress in such fashion so that as I carry the message of God, I am more accepted by a group. When I pick out clothes...I ask... is this pleasing to God?
Then I look to find if it is a modest in style type so I don't look like a total nerd *LOL*
As for how women dress... I see it as...
What kind of attraction will my style of dress bring? Will my style of dress bring looks from men with lust in their eyes or will my style of dress bring thoughts of men thinking...what a wonderful Godly lady she is?

People will dress as they will or as they need. A Christian needs think things through a little more in my opinion.

Sitting in traffic, Jeans, leather jacket, full face helmet, leather boots, gloves... Yes I look very smart and cut a good line (leather jacket works like a girdle *LOL*) With the full face helmet people don't see the bald head or the beginnings of grey. Being a biker and well dressed in a biker style, I have caught many a lady's eye. I need be aware of such and not react so that I may not bring out a lust in their heart with a flurting look or even as much as a glance of acknowledgement of their look at me.
When not covered up in the full face helmet I have less a problem of women looking at me.
All this to say that as a Christian... I try to be my brother's(and sister's) keeper by how I dress and how I act or react to what is going on around me.

[cmc]

Mercedes,
You have a good 7 months and I hope you won't let things like this get in the way of your recovery, but to blame others for your responses and resentments is not recovery and I think you know that.

You know, many years ago in the 70's when my usual dress would be a mini skirt, I made a special effort to dress appropriately when I was a guest at my friend's church. When I sat, my gathered skirt fell way below the knees. I was all covered up. A woman that I did not know came right up to me and uncrossed my legs!! In her church- her rules. Mind you this church was not one of my cultural background and I was the only one there of my race and knew nothing of their customs. When in Rome etc. I felt a little embarrassed- I was only 16 but later on we laughed it off. No harm done- and an older respected woman had 'her say' about it.

What do I think?
Anger and resentments are enemies with good recovery.
Nobody "presented" a resentment to you. How you respond is your choice- and if you choose to give her the power to be a 'reason to drink' that is your choice too.
I hope you can learn to forgive and begin to understand that she was probably just doing what she was asked to do. It's left to a deaconness to do this type of 'personal' communication since it would be inappropriate coming from a man.
I also hope that when you meet with your pastor you will be able to work things out.

[Grasshopper]

A minister was talking about this very thing the other day.He says that sometimes,folks, gets so caught up on the way things should be or shouldnt be,done,that we leave God out of it,and focus on things that are not important.Like dress-wear.,for one.
Both yourself,daughter,and this women were more concerned with the dress issue,how she pproached you,that all forgot about God,and worshiping Him.
Let go let God,Not everyone in or out of church is going to approach one nicely.We do better when we know better.Pray for her.

[best]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

....Pray for her.

Thank you for that very important reminder.
Get hard to become angry at someone when we pray for them.
Resentments become less and less the more we pray for others.

[Barbara52]

I am a Deacon in my church and have to say that it is not the place of any Deacons I know to tell anyone how to dress to worship God.

People seem to forget that a worship service is not for us, the individuals inside that building. A worship service is just that, a time to worship God. How one is dressed is not important unless it somehow interferes with that worship. I can't see how casual dress could interfere. That woman's actions sure did interfere though. I believe she was wrong.

Grasshopper is right; pray for her. And pray for the rest of the congregation. All churches need as much prayer as they can get.

[NoelleR]

Thought I'd hold off for a bit to see what others had to say.......

I'm a 60+ y/o woman who doesn't own a dress or a skirt, or nylon (or whatever it is some women wear nowadays)......haven't owned any of this trash since graduating high school in 1963.....and I'd certainly not go out and buy a bunch of clothes just to please siomebody else (especially since I probably wouldn't be going back to that church, and would never wear the clothes...............atall).........I'm a jeans 'n t-shirt kinda gal; that's who I am and God loves me just this way.....and if someone told me I wasn't dressed appropriately to worship in 'their' church I'd probably tell them to take it up with God, cause He picks out all my clothes.....

.....and as for the stumblingblock verses.............boy, aren't they always dragged out when trying to tell women how to dress.....lol The way I read them is that it is referring to a person's conduct, not their dress.....that should not be a stumblingblock, and to me, the way a woman dresses is not conduct; it would be the woman's attitude; her conduct; regardless how she is dressed; and any man who blames his lust on the way a woman dresses ... well, he's just not willing to take responsibility for his own actions.....

...just my thoughts on all this, and yes, I go to church in jeans and t's and sometimes shorts..........and nobody has ever told me to leave or made me feel I was dressed inappropriately, but then I don't give folks that kind of power..... (o:


NoelleR

[raerae6]

it sounds to me like this woman was rude, and possibly jealous.

[Mercedes1]

To best: ...Will my style of dress bring looks from men with lust in their eyes or will my style of dress bring thoughts of men thinking...what a wonderful Godly lady she is?...

There is NO WAY I can predict Lust in a man's eye...PERIOD. How do you define lust...some men find children sexy. And come on, Best..to portray "modesty, kindness, compassion..:" has NOTHING to do with clothes. That comes from within. And, you have to be interactive with men..if I wanted to go that far to use that to attract men. But that is a commandment to live as a human being..not to attract men.

CMC: you said..".... Nobody "presented" a resentment to you. How you respond is your choice- and if you choose to give her the power to be a 'reason to drink' that is your choice too.
I hope you can learn to forgive and begin to understand that she was probably just doing what she was asked to do. It's left to a deaconness to do this type of 'personal' communication since it would be inappropriate coming from a man. ...."""

I completely DISAGREE. We are human beings and being stopped on my way in to a church with rolled eyes up/down myself and my daughter...referencing clearly a JUDGEMENT on us we were dressed for the beach and clearly a CONDESENDING remark.."this is a house of worship".."AS IF we were there for something else is down right wrong.

ANd it is NOT what she should be telling people. We left CMC. No normal, red bodied woman or man could sit in the service after that? Resentments can be formed for good cause..it is how we handle them but to suggest we just write it off and be done with it is not realisitic. ANd...just so you know...I am an active member of my church...this woman identified herself as a Deaconess w/out even telling me her name..we had our backs to her and she basically chased us down to "ridicule" us. There was no good in that..whatsoever. I have an obligation to take this to my Pastor..which I have..I have a meeting w/him today. This is UNACCEPTABLE behavior and any church that tells their staff to do such an act is not a church I want to be a part of..and the fact you are ok with that..tells me alot.

Point is..there is a fine line for respecting others opinions and being in bondage. I would never go back to my church IF I WAS NOT spiritually fit, spiritually minded and mature. So I am not sure what you mean about drinking..I am not tempted to drink, I said that most likely someone in recovery that was not strong..would.

There are resentments we absolutely need to just let go..the way someone looks at us, cuts us off in traffic ..that kind of stuff.

Then there is outright unjustness...tyrants in poliltics, judges that let evil go free...lawyers that fight for the rights of pedaphilles ...and women that call themselves "deaconesses" and attack people coming in to church on their clothes when clothes have NOTHING to do w/worship...true worship....humilate and degrade people w/out even knowing their name..is WRONG. I didn't yell at her, fight...I am venting now..yes..but I simply told her I disagree, made an appt with HER MENTOR....our pastor and asked for a meeting with her, him and myself to work this out...OUTSIDE OF THE SERVICE. THAT....my friend is the right thing to do.

Also, I must say..if I go up to someone and basically tell them..not suggest but TELL them they are dressed disresctful...because they have makeup on..or somehting..I can tell you...I am responsible for that persons reactions.. You have evil in your intentions when you know you are exposing someone's resentment. You say..oh they need to control their reactions..but you are accountable too to push their buttons clearly ..then walk away and ask them to deal w/it?





CMC: ..."

[Mercedes1]

Grasshopper...you obviously didnt read my initial post. My daughter and I had absolutely NO MIND FOR DRESS Sunday morning at all. As I stated, I have dressed in shorts for the past 7/8 years at this time of year on/off at my church. We were there for WORSHIP or why even get out of bed? this woman tracked us down, on our way to the service..the service had already started...she knew this and that we were late..she purposely STOPPED us and proceeded to share with us not our outlook but HERS ON OUR CLOTHES.

How does that make me there for clothes and not God. It was only AFTER that..and CLEARLY BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE SAID..we looked at our clothes..

I disagreed with her and proceeded to the service.. BUT there was absolutely no way I could concentrate on the sermon..get back to where I was aftter that encounter.. You try being told you dress like the beach and how dare you go into the sanctuary...on your way in to the sanctuary..then try to sit and focus on the sermon after that.

My point xactly she is accountable for my reaction. I was humilated...like Adam and Eve being found out..all the sudden our focus went from GOD (before this woman stopped us) to our clothes?

My point is I was not there for clothes,...i was there for worship. I don't need a sermon on this..I ALREADY KNOW SHE WAS WRONG..I SAW HER DOING JUST THAT...focusing on clothes and not the real picture.

But after she attacked us...we were put in a place no human could really get out of.. We left. Her intent..and this is a DEACONESS who prefers us to leave then to sit and worship..in shorts. Amazing!!!!

[Mercedes1]

Barbara.....THANK YOU...THANK YOU....THANK YOU!!!!!!!

Now YOU...have the right focus, heart, attitude. I would be very blessed to have Deaconnesses like you.. My point exactly.

And..basically the bottom line to how I feel after this woman approached us. There was no mentoring,,,there was no spiritual growth..there was shame, focus away from God to our clothes (and Grasshopper, this was not our focus prior)..this all came from this woman's mouth).

what is our objective as Christians...to worship God...to experience Christ..that was not this woman's focus. She was too wrapped up in "service appearance" than true worship...and told US we were not there to worship? Her perception only..not ours..she has not right to tell us our intent...period.

[Mercedes1]

Noelle, ...just read your post..WOW. You and I are the same!!!!!!


Thank you....and to me, the way a woman dresses is not conduct; it would be the woman's attitude; her conduct; regardless how she is dressed; and any man who blames his lust on the way a woman dresses ... well, he's just not willing to take responsibility for his own actions.....

MY POINT EXACTLY!!!!!

and how true...

...."God tells me what to wear..".....

As stated, I wear the same clothes after church ...in church. So why should this matter to God? This woman was out of line and ABUSED her authority. We need to be careful how we present ourselves to people.. PERIOD>.."

Noelle, ROCK ON!!!! I totally agree......

[rayofsunshine]

Just adding my 2 cents... When I think about dressing for chuch I think about the verse where Jesus says "Come as you are". No one should be turned away for how they dress. That being said, God wants our best efforts in everything ... I feel you should dress in your "best" clothes for church. For me, a single mom with no $$, my best is not gonna be the best of someone with lots of $$. But God knows our heart and knows when we truly give our best efforts to him, whether it be clothing or deeds.

[Snookman]

Mercedes, I think the most important thing that was said in this thread was to "pray for her". All the ranting solves and accomplishes nothing. Remember the world is watching how we respond and deal with issues like this. This woman needs people to be praying for her to be more sensitive as she represents that church. I can see resentment in this thread which is detrimental to recovery and is a very dangerous red flag. Forgive her and let God work in her life and yours. If you read at the end of the Lord's prayer Matt 6:14 & 15 "For if you forgive men for their sins your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins your father will not forgive your sins." And remember when he said this he was teaching His disciples. Matthew 6:34 "Therefore do not be anxious for tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Get back to the basics in the Word and the program, pray, forgive, ask for God's help and direction today, and He will help you and give you direction today. Focus on God not the problem.

[Mercedes1]

Snookman..I met with the Pastor to do this very thing and we did. I have never contacted this lady at all. And I have prayed for her but that does not eliminate the need to work this through.

I have closure now. My pastor owns this and agreed to do so. He also agreed this woman needs to be dealt with and we prayed (in his office). So I am done.

but...resentments are not a turn on/off button..they must be "delt" with. In this case..i just don't know how else to deal w/it then I did.

The good news..I never scolded this lady..I have not seen or heard her since. Right now she knows NOTHING of how I feel. I took it to the pastor. That is maturity, not ranting.

Rayofsun..I hear you on giving God your best, but for me..I just don't see going out of my way to wear a uncomfortable dress, high heal shoes...to church for one hour is my best when my focus will not be on God but on if my skirt sticks tomy back end getting, up, etc.

Bottom line..Comfort to me is respect. To be able to focus on the word..and not worry about earrings, etc.

Point is ,..if i gave my best in clothes.w/have to go black tie..now wouldnt I. I just don't get that and think God values that..so my best is from the heart..NOT MATERIAL.

[best]

Mercedes

I had to take some time to think on things because there are many questions and thoughts that have come up through this thread.
You are a smart person but emotions may have gotten in the way.

You asked a question and people shared from their experiences and wisdom.
The deaconess told you you were wrong, you didn't like that.
Others on this thread have shared from their wisdom...you didn't like some of i