SENSITIVE TOPIC - Welcome Christian MEN perspective as well as women

[Mercedes1]

I am 7 months sober. I realize that my drinking is due to my actions (or lack thereof) behind the drink. We all attribute selfishness, greed, deceit, anger, resentment as triggers. We therefore live in a way..now,, through prayer, meetings, reading, talking to other alchoholics to live in a way to avoid these "character defects" or as we know it better..sin.

So, here is my question...to all the faint at heart...please move on. I need some serious Christian "realists" to answer this question. Is SEX wrong then before marriage too? No relationships for a year...right. But what about after a year.

I am 46, divorced, have a child. I know the value of NOT abusing sex. I read in the Bible about fornication..believe it is there for a reason. But I am NOT a kid. I cannot make someone marry me. But is ti reasonable to date at my age...where work, kids and time are so different than in biblical times..to refrain for a year, or more. Meanwhile...sure, the married Christians can easily say just don't do it. But ...lets not forget you are married.

Young people even ..live with their parents, go to school....they don't apply either...since they are young..easier for them.. to wait. Or atleast I should say..you can see the best in that. They are so busy ..they are somewhat protected.

But let's really get real...you get together at 8:00p since no other time is good..you partner has work, you have work, you have 2 houses (2 lifestyles)..meaning we are dating..right...so we are not living together. The only time we can see eachother is Thursday at 8:00 (this is an example). So..you eat, watch tv, talk, go for a walk..before you know it is 10:30..you sit on couch, snuggle. fast forward this a year, 2 years...how can you realistically expect us to say no to anything further than a few kisses then "times up" gotta go.

How do you ever feel comfortable with someone? How do you not reverse obsess about marriage doing it this way...I have to get married now quickly to be comfortable.

I have had 2 failed relationships on beating the guy up inside my head on to marry before we even had 3 dates..because the intamcy was such a restriction. So I felt we needed to get to that point. I have broke up over this...sabatoged the relationship...because in all situations..the guy saw me as a prude, too difficult or overly controlling.

It is a no win. So my belief now is God is not that harsh. I understand the value of waiting as a young person. I see the value of holding off even as an adult...to ensure the person is sincered. I see that sex can just be sex..but God forgives divorce...God forgives other stuff.

It takes 2 to marry... I can abstain..but what if my partner doesn't want too. Ok, I know what youw ill say..it is Gods will. So, I have to once again..walk away .. I have had Christian men feel the same way about sex.

I know you can't ask forgiveness then do it again w/out real repentance but is it really that black /white with sex when you are in your 40's, divorced, christia, love God

The reason for all of this is I am also in recovery. I believe that this is an ongoing issue, out of recovery. I am trying to do the right thing again with my boyfriend (now)...and I see him moving away.

Even if I go back to being alone..it doesn't resolve this. Even if I had a guy that believed in abstaining...waiting a year...is just plain hard. Especially with intamancy is so necessary in marriage..being there for each other..expressing.

I find myself cold to men for the most part because I hold back..to avoid "going there" ..but how does that help.. I am questioning that it isn't that black and white. God does understand if you love ther person your are with (for marriage) ...it is the same as not fornicating.

[cookconfay]

Oh my gosh! This is sooooooooo where I am at!!! I am 46 yrs old too! I will have 10 yrs clean & sober next month. I have 2 girls 22 and 3, yes I know the age gap. . . .but have had numerous failed relationships also. Last marriage ended a week before I found out I was pregnant with 3 yr old. In Texas, you can't get divorced when you are pregnant though, so been divorced since 7/04. Absolutely NO dates, NOTHING til about 2 1/2 months ago when an old flame of mine called out of the blue. He's a christian also, he's been doing the whole church, bible study deal for like 3 yrs now, which is the only way we would have a chance, since he drank too! But, we have a huge history together. . .28 yrs ago we lived together etc etc, and it goes on and on and on over many years. So. . .I am anxiously awaiting other feedback on this very thing. THANKS!!

[Mercedes1]

To further my point about married couples are instructed to "be there sexually" for their partners...to keep it fresh to avoid temptations. My point is I am no different than a married person just not married with my partner. The only thing that separates us is the fact we are not married. So all those rules of go to it in marriage..do not apply yet I still feel rejected, cold when we can't touch? I still see him reaching out and when "I" have to say..ok stop now..him reacting hurt, betrayed. I still feel like some "sexual martyr" since I am always the one to be strong yet I resent it terribly. I hate being like this. I tried to talk to my partner about it..but it is a no win. He now says our intamacy is effected now no matter what as he can't be with me knowing I question it. BTW, I tried to do the right thing with him..we dated a while..was completely dong the right thing and I still ended up with him...now I have to go back and "fix it". So my point is...maybe its time to own up to Christians being alittle to b/w about this issue. In the biblical times we did wait because we were "betrothed"..people got married at 10 (exaggerating but you know age was alot younger then)...

But I also hear you when you say..times change but principals don't. Yes it is harder..sin is broadening but we need to remain true to our higher calling. But i must say...this is abusive to me at this point..atleast I feel it.

I want to be free. I want to express myself with him and not feel guilty. When I try to see myself forgiven, and God sees my heart to want the best with this man I am with...(marriage minded) then it is ok. He forgives me as my heart is not to fornicate. When I accept this (all but briefly) I feel so intimate with this guy. Then hours later, I see all the christians saying it is wrong..none of them with realisitic tools to how to do this in today's society..and I get all convicted, guilt ridden,e tc. So then, I go to this guy and he tells me its now a problem with us.

Before this everything was good..we love God, love the program, love eachother (for the most part)..and now it is problems.

I feel I am sabatoging this...creating problems...but have no recourse since I am "at a higher calling"...which feels like a curse.

[Grasshopper]

Question if i may.Why isnt,the fellow in your life--respecting your beliefs?Why the pressure to conform?Why the name calling,prude,being too difficult and over-controling,why these judgements of you?
It goes much deeper than this issue,of sex.
If your man,cant abide and respect you on this issue,what about other issues that will for certain come up?Will you be pressured again,to conform?
There are many folks having sex,before marriage.And from my own view,this has not strenghtened their relationship.They still break up,have issues,,,etc,,,etc..Sex was not the glue that kept them together.
God is the glue that holds a marriage together.
So being real-----is by living your convistions,according to God,s Only Word.
I know for sure,ALL,my issues,have had,and are to this day,haing a spititual solutions.
Please,pray and ask fro God,s Will in your life,in your relationship.Put Him first,and the rest will clear itself out,in His Time,never ours...Thank you for bringing this up,this is a very important topic,and im looking forward to others,responses..
My prayers are with you,
God Bless,you both!!!

[rayofsunshine]

I don't have any answers, but wanted to thank you for bringing this up.
I look forward to reading more responses. Keep praying about this.

[cmc]

..none of them with realisitic tools to how to do this in today's society..

So it falls to me... I think you already know the answer and are looking for someone to tell you it's okay. One trip to your pastor's office or to the local Christian bookstore would provide you with a tremendous amount of tools for 'how to do this'.

All that aside...what are the statistics for couples who live one way or another? I can't give you exact numbers but it's well over 50% times the average failure rate for people who don't 'wait' who do eventually marry...Now take into consideration the number of couples who wish to enjoy physical intimacy prior to marraige...who never marry. The rates of divorce for those who live together is also very high. It's a huge amount of hurting people to be sure.

The emotional pain of continuous monogamy...which is what you describe...is devastating. It erodes self esteem and the ability to trust a future partner. To follow the guidelines in the bible, if that's how I choose to live- I would say that God reserved a most special and protected atmosphere for sex between two commited people, who are Christians.

All I share here is strictly in the context of what is instructed in the bible...for a person who has accepted Christ and made Him the lord of their life. Nobody promised that living a godly life would be easy..far from it- but it's my experience that things do go alot better when I line up to His plan for my life instead of my idea of it.

As grasshopper said...a good look at my own issues are ultimately spiritual. This usually helps me solve any questions I have about what is right or wrong.

God set the 'rules' for marraige as a means for protection and to insure that the most fulfillment can be gained- with mutual respect, freedom, safety and security.

[best]

I did it my way and this was the results......

If given a second chance, I would hope that I follow God's way a little better so that I would get better results.

I will add more later. You bring up some interesting and thought provoking points.
I would rather give answers with clearer thought then I have at the moment.

[Mercedes1]

Grasshopper, I went to my partner from the get go..the only clincher is I didn't mention "sex before marriage" but just I preferred to wait...wasn't spiritually fit. The reason is ..as soon as I mention sex before marriage..MARRIAGE is the issue and not the sex before marriage. All the sudden, I want to get married. First, I do or should say w/like it to progress to that..but not now. We have known eachother a year..but only dated a few months. So I avoided that to protect ME.

Finally I owned up to it and now he is saying..why didn't I mention this before we had sex. Yes, we had sex but it was after weeks of dating,, and I did say i wasn't ready. but he didnt get it. He kept coming back but this is as perfect as it gets...blah blah..so I fell.

I was not drunk, I was not unspiritual..I had prayed, gone to 3 meetings that day..was having a great time getting to know him..and yes, I believe God put him in my live..it evolved over time..nothing quick, temporary.

But now he is saying I betrayed him.

The other reason I didn't flat out mention sex before marriage is I didn't want to be labeled a religious freak. I am not sure I accept abstaination at my age ANYWAY.

I mean..we could say no today, tomorrow, the next day..but give me a break...a year, 2 years of "today's"...

How many "go homes' can you tell someone you really want to be close too.

And I get the waiting..I really get it. I would be ok with it. But I can't always fight my partner on this. And, even if he was ok with it...doesn't make it easier...

and to the point on tools? My pastor doesnt give me any tools. ANd no books I have read do either. Saying "don't do it" is not a tool.

I am not a teenager either.

The point is...be realistic..aside from a) breaking up and just leaving the relationship; b) being cold throughout the relationship..those are the only tools.

period.

[Mercedes1]

BTW, my church...doesmt promote any single adult spiritual guidance. All the small groups are women...or men (not a mix) ..or married. The other options is youth group..which is not antyhing remotely close to being single adult.

When you ask to even see the pastor..you have to have another person w/you if you are a woman (cuz he is a man)...more segregation.

Sermons are all about marriage..supporting your wife/husband..but basically IMHO through their actions...DON'T SUPPORT GETTING TO KNOW YOUR FUTURE PARTNER. How are we to ever meet our husbands/wives when all their groups are one gender or another..

I have gone to other churches more single minded and it is always..ALWAYS, youth. Teens...

A few 40's issues..but usually so pathetic it makes me worse off.

I have to go to the world for dating, advice...and men.

[anvilhead]

what is YOUR belief on the matter of sex and marriage? ultimately that's what is really gonna matter.....we must be at peace within ourselves.....our morals must match our actions.......what is in YOUR heart?

do you attend your church because you believe it is the closest expression to god's will? do you believe and uphold what is in the bible? if so and your church approves sex only between married couples, then there's your answer. trust me i'm no bible scholar but i'm pretty sure it kinda stresses that married thing too....wives cleave unto their husbands and something about Thou Shalt Not...

it sounds like your partner is pressuring you.......and that you are tryng to find that special exclusionary statement.....or that back door clause. oh and by the way NO means NO........if you do not wish or want to have sex with someone, NO is the tool. if you want to have sex with someone, don't try and justify it by saying the church or the christians have this whole marriage thing whacked, just do what is best for you.

[cookconfay]

I was wondering if anyone had anymore input here?

[best]

Mercedes

You cover a lot of areas in a short time *LOL*

Ed Young happens to be one of two preachers I have heard talk about sex. Most stay away from the subject because of what the world (or church) has changed the mindset of people to when the word sex is spoken.
Ed Young is one preacher who has said...lets recapture what is our's and start talking about it like we should.

Where do I start?

Your question on waiting till...
Yes it can be (is) difficult saying no once we have tasted the forbidden fruit but it can be done...with many prayers and with the Lord's strength and a commitment to do things God's intended ways.
The tools needed... prayer and rely on the Lord for His strength...daily.

As for a guy that doesn't accept No! for an answer... his own selfish desires are showing... a red flag of sorts.
If I truly love a person... even if they are weak in the moment...I should be strong for us both and hold onto my prayers that we don't become weak at the same time.
A strong spiritual leader would be someone who leads for both and thus a checkmark off the list of things you should be looking for in a man.

Tools for seeking a proper man (one worthy of who you are)
First off... the year (or time of growth) is used for a few things...
To build yourself back up from the baggage of the past.
To have a time of grief to get past your loss. A divorce is a death in many ways and needs to be handled as such in many ways.
Also as you do the above... you need be seeking the Lord in all you do. Seeking to align yourself with His ways in all areas of your life.
Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Another tool that can be helpful....
Make a list... 5 things that a man "Must" have to be worthy of you giving your all to him. If you date someone and any one of those things are missing.... date is over.
Make a second list... 5 things that a man must "Not" have and if any one of the things on that list are there... the date is over.
You are worthy of top shelf and the only way you will get top shelf is by accepting only top shelf. We can put more effort into picking a tomato out at the store then we do a mate at times. Ahhh this tomato has just a tiny rotten spot... that is ok, I will still pay fullprice for it....Not me! I only want the best tomato put in my shopping cart. (the lists are a good idea)

The thing with answers is that they open up more questions.

Why is sex before marriage not a good idea in God's eyes? What do you feel is the answer?
God has given us a natural nature that lusts after desires of the flesh...why would He say to not use what is natural by our nature?

As for dating and waiting for marriage.... if a person is right for marriage,...why wait? (why wait to be married that is)

Ed Young Jr in following in his dad's footprints has written a few books about dating, sex, and the single life. They are written with young adults in mind but the same rules work for those of us who are a little past our teen years.
Tools and resources are available but as you stated... your church (most churches) don't like to talk about the subject of sex.
Why? They should. Sex is a beautiful gift from God and because it is seen as such a beautiful gift is why the Song of Songs is found in the bible. Solomon's Song of Songs is a very sensual read and most poeople miss some of the warnings (tools) found among the pages because their eye catches the sensual rather then the warnings.
Be mindful of the little foxes for they are what distroys the whole garden.
(translated) Be watchful on your thoughts and clear those that will lead you where you do not want to go before it becomes to late (very difficult) to say no to the things you would rather not do.

Is it easy to do? With the Lord's help and strength it is easier.
Can it be done...yes.
Are you willing to accept the challenge?
Do you want what is ok or do you want what is the best?

I know that when I do things my way... I get what I get.
I know that when I do things God's way... I get what is better.
I know you are worth what is the best.
God knows you are worth what is the best.
The choices are always in our hands... we can accept what we get or we can reach for and get what is the best that God has in store for us.
Anything worth being called high quality is worth the extra effort needed to gain it.

[best]

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

Especially with intamancy is so necessary in marriage..being there for each other..expressing.

Pulling a blanket up over my wife because her arm was still in a sling.
Giving a back rub because she had a bad day and needed to relax.
Cooking soup because she wasn't feeling good.
Putting on lotion because the sunburn was so bad that she couldn't move.
Getting up in the middle of the night to care for the baby because...well she had just delivered a watermelon sized baby from a bodypart that only a walnut size should be delivered from.

Intimacy is much more...so much more then the sex.
Intimacy of the hearts is much deeper and so much more important.
Equally yoked comes to mind.

[cookconfay]

Thanks so much best! I was told a long time ago that intimacy was much more than sex and there's not many that are treating it as such! I think it all came about in an exercise I had to do one time in treatment actually! So . . . there you go, since I've been numerous times and just now am approaching my 10 yr mark in sobriety, I am not a slow learner but a fast forgetter!

[cmc]

Intimacy and trust make all the difference.

[Snookman]

The issue is not whether we are married or unmarried but how we approach sin in our lives. Hebrew 4:12 states:
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
The word of God is not a book for people of old, but is living and active, God never changes. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 when discussing those that are married versus those that are not sums it up quite well.
Sin separates us from God, whether it deals with lying, stealing, drunkenness, improper sex, murder, etc. in Gods eyes sin is sin. He wants us set aside for Himself, so he can lead us and help us not just survive on this earth but to reach out and help others in need. He expects us to lead by example and follow his word. Jesus said “I came to show you the way to the Father”, He that was tempted in all ways and yet did not sin. We all have sin in our lives and we all struggle with our flesh, but we have a choice to follow God’s word. That word is not just the written word but the word that God has written in our hearts. Like it says above in Hebrews “it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart”. We are responsible for ourselves, and no matter how you slice it, someday we will all stand before Him to be judged and we must answer for our actions. This life can be difficult, but in the difficulties this is where we get the strength from God to walk as He has called us and not as those that are in the world.

[citychick]

quote by Mercedes1

So my belief now is God is not that harsh.

[liveweyerd]

In the past common law marriages were very common. It just occurred to my curious mind how that fits in?

[Mercedes1]

Best, Thanks for your heartfelt and very revealing post.

Here is the deal...I did everything, EVERYTHING I could this time around to do it God's way..I prayed, I allowed the relationship to evolve..I didn't go pick him ..i feel God put him in my life...it was so natural..not forced..

I truly believe our first date was so God its not funny. We sat in the same meeting for months before..we knew eachother from our past years before. Then one day..we were both forced to sit next to each other an then it happened very slowly..converstaions...dinner, etc.

My point is...am I a saint now allowing this to happen..or did I sabatage this relationship. I mean..less than 24 hrs ago. this guy was sending me love messages, we were happy and so excited for eachother. Not one fight..not one negative issue.

But, now..he has since sent me 3 emails...all bad. All, have a nice life? He is not convicted like I am. He sees this as a weakness..espeically since I was there with him before and the time and place was to address this before...

But as I told you..I did..he just didn't listen. And the GREATER question is, would it have mattered..this is his response now? It w/have hurt then too..do you actually think it could have been any different..he would have stopped dating me then..just we w/never have been together thats all the difference.

Anyway...Im not a saint. if anything. it hurts because I am still not convinced on waiting..as I tried here and failed. Try again? With what?

the truth is...if it was hard then its will be this way with another.

And Best, are we not powerless over how others see us anyway? If i do all the right things..wait ect does that make the I love you's any more sincere? Does that prevent us fter our wedding night for him not to go south?

And I am with all of you on the back rubs, taking care of you when sick, holding hands as being as intimate if not more than sex..but what good is all that with no partner. You see..we had all that before he dumped me. But w/out the sex..he forfeited all that too.

Truth is...I can't help but think I sabataged this. It was a no win conversation...all I did was make it real my issue..his. And he can't believe something he doesnt.

But I must say...I am shocked there is no..lets try waiting or atleast slowing down alittle..he said nothing about that...just ok, wer're done.

So, maybe he would have dumped me later anyway..maybe he is all about sex. But why is that my job to figure this out always the hard way.

oh well.

[cookconfay]

Mercedes, I am sorry that you are having to struggle so with this. I believe in my heart though if he's that quick to bail, then . . .you don't need him.

As for our situation, we openly discuss this topic. We have been together before and neither of us was as spiritual then as we are now. Finally after all these years and aging much more, there is, I believe a chance for a "life" together. He brought up the topic of "for the rest of my life", wants me to be his wife, etc etc. I may be trying to justify our actions? But I really believe and we agree that God knows the desires of our hearts, someone said here earlier about being judged on intentions? Our intentions are to be together only with each other and from now on. I am enjoying finally having a relationship again with this man whom I've loved for almost half of my life. It was nothing I planned either, I truly believe it was all a God deal for him to even call me up after so many years. I continue to pray and seek counsel about this subject and we will continue to discuss our feelings on the subject to each other as well.

I pray for your healing and that your struggle with it will be lessened. God's got someone for you, maybe he's not done with him yet?