Agnostic needs help

[windysan]

Hey y'all. I need some help and figured this would be the place to ask. My mom's been trying to "save" me for years. She's not a fanatical christian but she just worries about me going to hell and whatnot. I told her that I'm too stupid to understand god, the universe, and all that. I love my mom and now I just tell her, "yeah, that's right" when she starts witnessing. I'd just rather not get into my lack of faith or whatever. She asks me to pray about it and have a childlike faith and all that stuff. I tell her that I try to do the right thing by people and I try to leave it at that. Works, ya know...not faith. She tells me that works ain't enough. I don't understand and I've read a lot of religious stuff. I've decided that I'll remain ignorant. I just don't know what to tell her when she starts trying to convert me. Should I just tell her, "yeah, okay...I believe".....or should I say something else? She thinks it is her responsibility to make me a christian. It is starting to get a little aggravating.

thanks y'all

[windysan]

help me out here guys

[1day]

Sorry, I don't have any answers for you, but I am in a very similar situation.

I have had many talks with my mom....similar to you.

I have told her that a relationship with a higher power is a personal thing.

I have told her that just like light and dark can not occupy the same space at the same time, faith and fear CANNOT co-exist. I have told her to have faith that her God will have a place for me.

So far none of this has had much impact. She chooses to worship the God of fear. I choose to believe in the God of MY understanding.

One of the things that I realize too is that my relationship with my higher power is an evolving relationship. One day I might feel the need to join a faith community to share my faith. Where I am at today, however, is that I live my faith like you "through works" and working my program. When I was drinking, I had moments of "outward faith". It was a mile wide but only an inch deep. It amounted to attending church on Sunday. (well at least I was there in body!)

Now in sobriety, have a simple but satisfying relationship with my God. I ask for help in the morning and through out the day. I actually do remember to thank him for the help and guidance I get. That is a huge difference from before. I don't attend church regularly right now, but I am not saying that I might not down the road - I am open to what my higher power intends for me.

The bottom line is that the god I used to worship was only involved for about 1 hour every Sunday. The God I now worship is with me all the time. I'll take that!

My mom's worries and conversion attempts for me are her choice...probably part of her codependency. While she "prays for my soul" I quietly pray for her conversion from a fear based belief to a faith based belief...with or without attendance at church.

Sorry for rambling.

[windysan]

Damn, that makes a lot of sense. Although I have no higher power and don't do the 12-step thing I do get the gist of what you are saying. Thanks to everyone who helped me with this.

[cmc]

Hi Windysan,
The difference between being a Christian and having a 'god of your own undertstanding' is vast.
It comes down to what you believe of course, and for those of the Christian faith- we believe the bible to be the unerrant word of God. There is an element of fear involved, but those who walk with Christ are NOT relating to God in a fearful way at all. His gift, His sacrifice is one of unconditional love, mercy and forgiveness.
Being 'saved' is what your mom is concerned about, Windysan. She is concerned about where you will spend eternity. It can be difficult to understand but I will explain it from 'this side' of the issue.
The old testament is about the law... ultimately there is no way to become without sin as we are all of a fallen nature. (even born-again types like myself...yep, I still sin) The New Testament chronicles the prophetic events of the Old Testament coming into being, thus we have a 'way' to approach an all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect God...by His Son's death on our behalf. We acknowledge our sin, accept His provision and begin to live a new life that is eternally secure.
Throughout history and in many cultures people have 'made' their own gods... this is not how the Bible works. We believe that there is one god...not one we make up to fit ourselves. That may seem narrowminded to some but is what we believe. I don't view God as a cruel judge who wants people to have no fun, and if they do send them to hell. I see Him as a God who loves us, wants to protect us from the effects of sin, and to spare us the pain and suffering we bring upon ourselves. I see Him as One who provided an escape plan...and Who does not force us but waits for us to become willing to approach Him.
I am so glad you dropped by our forum and hope that if you have any questions you will feel free to come here anytime... I certainly don't try to persuade or push people into believing, but am happy to share my faith with you.
cmc
ps
jmho... It is your responsibility to accept Christ or not...not your mom's, but I do believe she means well and cares for you. Maybe you can just ask her to please be patient and to keep praying for you... that you two could come to a place where you agree to disagree and keep the love between a mother and son intact.

[1day]

Originally Posted by cmc

Hi Windysan,
The difference between being a Christian and having a 'god of your own undertstanding' is vast.
It comes down to what you believe of course, and for those of the Christian faith- we believe the bible to be the unerrant word of God. There is an element of fear involved, but those who walk with Christ are NOT relating to God in a fearful way at all. His gift, His sacrifice is one of unconditional love, mercy and forgiveness.
Being 'saved' is what your mom is concerned about, Windysan. She is concerned about where you will spend eternity. It can be difficult to understand but I will explain it from 'this side' of the issue.
The old testament is about the law... ultimately there is no way to become without sin as we are all of a fallen nature. (even born-again types like myself...yep, I still sin) The New Testament chronicles the prophetic events of the Old Testament coming into being, thus we have a 'way' to approach an all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect God...by His Son's death on our behalf. We acknowledge our sin, accept His provision and begin to live a new life that is eternally secure.
Throughout history and in many cultures people have 'made' their own gods... this is not how the Bible works. We believe that there is one god...not one we make up to fit ourselves. That may seem narrowminded to some but is what we believe. I don't view God as a cruel judge who wants people to have no fun, and if they do send them to hell. I see Him as a God who loves us, wants to protect us from the effects of sin, and to spare us the pain and suffering we bring upon ourselves. I see Him as One who provided an escape plan...and Who does not force us but waits for us to become willing to approach Him.
I am so glad you dropped by our forum and hope that if you have any questions you will feel free to come here anytime... I certainly don't try to persuade or push people into believing, but am happy to share my faith with you.
cmc
ps
jmho... It is your responsibility to accept Christ or not...not your mom's, but I do believe she means well and cares for you. Maybe you can just ask her to please be patient and to keep praying for you... that you two could come to a place where you agree to disagree and keep the love between a mother and son intact.

Very well said!

[best]

What makes a person a Christian and what a Christian life is like can be given in a moment or it can talk a lifetime to learn.

When we realize that Jesus loves us so much that even with our sins He still died on the cross as payment that opens the gates of heaven so we can get in, we are saved from the death of hell.
The bible say that hell is a place of sorrow and heaven is a place of joy.
Here on earth, people say the same about earth...it can be hell and others say they have found heaven on earth.
When I had seen enough of life and hell on earth, my eyes started to open so that I could see some good from time to time. I came to realize that the good was coming from God. There is a God. OK I get that part. Now I needed learn who this God is and started a search as to why He would even create me.
God knows and is love...perfect love. It is though He said... Lets share this love by making humans in our image. So you could say...God made us so we may know the joys He knows.
God loves us so much that He sent His one and only son to pay the price for us to get into heaven with Him. Once a person believes and accepts that fact they become a Christian.
Accept Jesus as Lord and God of our life, Repent(turn from our sinful ways), and read God's word (the bible) so that we better learn and understand who God is and what is expected of us as His children... with doing that, we can find heaven on earth and we will be granted heaven when we leave this earth.

There were points in my life that I would say I was agnostic. There were points in my life that I even said I was atheist. There were points in my life I did things that I feel no one would forgive me for such actions. I have found one who will forgive me for "all" my sins....Yes even that one - the one I felt could never be forgiven.
That is how much Jesus loves you and how me He loves me...Our every sin He will forgive just by our asking.
So when your mothers says...please accept the Lord because she is worried about your soul... your mother is doing what she should be doing as a Christian and as a parent...loving others. We each have a personal relationship with Jesus (one to one) but we collectively, as a human, have the same relationship with Him. He loves us all the same...Total, Perfect Love.

[recoveringnky]

Best and CMC said it so well, Windysan. I am so happy to have Christ in my life full time now. I always believed there was a God, but didn't really care. I was "afraid" to not believe because I didn't want to go to hell like "they" said I would if I didn't believe. As I've grown in the program of the 12 steps (Recovery through Christ) and the AA program, I have a great connection with God. It just took time, patience and a willingness to allow myself to be willing to have faith....one day at a time. That's how all of this works, spiritual healing, physical healing, emotional healing.....one day at a time!

Blessings to you,
Kym

I hope you are able to see your mom's love for you and can continue to have a loving relationship with her!!


((((((((BIG HUG TO YOU)))))))))))

[windysan]

wish i was smart enough to understand. thanks for the help on this.

[best]

Faith comes from hearing God's word.

If you truly want understanding... read the bible.
Look for the book of John and read what it says. As you read, ask in your thoughts...God help me understand what You want me to know.
The answers will come.

There are many bibles available. The NIV (New International Version) is the best translation I have found (easier to read then others are).
You can read it on line if you don't have a bible available at home.

www.bible.com is one place among many you can find it for free use.

[Cindi R]

I believe in a Higher Power..."GOD"...my concept is that HE/SHE/IT is all knowing, all powerful, all seeing...
A forgiving and a loving being...who wants each and every one of us to have the best possible life that we can and to be kind to our fellow man...
Although I was raised in a methodist church, with a Sunday school teacher for a mom...I have some difficulty in buying all those things written in a book by a few mortal men.
I became disillusioned with the church a long time ago...seeing the sinners out Saturday night sitting in services Sunday morning...
Being excommunicated from the church for nonattendance and for not giving a tithing.
Although in my life...I've seen miracles...
I guess I'm frustrated with organized religion...from way back with the TV evangalists...Jim and Tammy Faye...
The priests and the Catholic sex scandals...
most recently Tim Haggard!

I've seen a quote that said "Religion is sitting in a church thinking about fishing, spirituality is fishing while thinking about God".

No I don't attend church...but I do believe in God...

I think that it's highly likely that there are scientific explanations for many of those "miracles"...such as the immaculate conception...and Jesus rising from the dead,... walking on water...ect

But, as I said...the book was written by man, thousands of years ago at that.

However the great thing about the program...is that you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe!
The main thing is that you don't continue to believe that you're God!

[windysan]

Originally Posted by best

Faith comes from hearing God's word.

If you truly want understanding... read the bible.
Look for the book of John and read what it says. As you read, ask in your thoughts...God help me understand what You want me to know.
The answers will come.

There are many bibles available. The NIV (New International Version) is the best translation I have found (easier to read then others are).
You can read it on line if you don't have a bible available at home.

www.bible.com is one place among many you can find it for free use.

I've read it many times as well as most of the apocrypha. I minored in religion in college. I'm still way too stupid to grasp it. It be some heavy stuff. I'm resigned to the fact that I'll never know.

[Mercedes1]

...." I'm still way too stupid to grasp it.." I think you believe the opposite. your too smart in yourself to accept something so simple? ...

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to accept a gift.
In terms of fear>? Do you fear you Mother when she told you as a child if you touch a hot stove you will get burnt? Same thing...God sees what you don't...He is just looking out for you.

Interesting so many people focus on the negatives of God's "warnings" instead of the gifts of his promises>? Life eternal, joy, peace, protection, safety, self-control, forgiveness....

BTW, he never says it is easy...actually he says his way is the "narrow" way.

What I suggest is read the Bible yourself...only you can decide.

[best]

Originally Posted by windysan

I minored in religion in college.

If I had taken my college courses before accepting the Lord, I think I would have the same feeling. God's plan is so simple that we hold doubts...
What? That is all we need do? Noooo No one would accept that. It goes against all I know. It is tooooo simple. No one is that loving or understanding.

Grace... something given that is Not earned.
God's love is so strong and so perfect that it is beyond our understanding.

With all I have done wrong...Who would love me? Jesus would and does.
He loves you as well. He loves you so much that He left heaven, came to earth in the flesh, died on the cross as payment for your sins and my sins so that all who believe and accept His gift of love shall enter heaven.

Just accepting His gift on faith. No can't be..that is toooo simple.
Again I say... That is how perfect God's love is for us. He accepts us on simple terms.

[windysan]

Dang, I'm even more confused now. Guess I shouldn't have read anything other than the bible. The more I read the more confused I get. I look at all the death and destruction caused by religions and it kind of freaks me out.

[best]

Originally Posted by windysan

... caused by religions ...

I see it as... religions are man made rules. Made up by man for man.
God's word... the bible is given by God... from God, for and to mankind.
I follow God's word, not man's religions. Just so happens that the church I fellowship at belives as I do... God's word is the guide...not man's rules.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by best

I see it as... religions are man made rules. Made up by man for man.
God's word... the bible is given by God... from God, for and to mankind.
I follow God's word, not man's religions. Just so happens that the church I fellowship at belives as I do... God's word is the guide...not man's rules.

Interesting...

All other religions are made up by man.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by windysan

Dang, I'm even more confused now. Guess I shouldn't have read anything other than the bible. The more I read the more confused I get. I look at all the death and destruction caused by religions and it kind of freaks me out.

I'm with you, Windy. IMO, it just doesn't add up.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by Cindi R

The main thing is that you don't continue to believe that you're God!

That sounds like a mental health diagnosis.

Anyway...

You can't believe you are what you don't believe in, right?

[windysan]

Religion, both man-made and god-made (LOL), always confused the heck outta me.

Explaining this to Mom is tough. I don't want to hurt her feelings. She thinks I'm gonna be on the end of a pitchfork in ye olde Lake O' Fire.

[windysan]

Originally Posted by best

I see it as... religions are man made rules. Made up by man for man.
God's word... the bible is given by God... from God, for and to mankind.
I follow God's word, not man's religions. Just so happens that the church I fellowship at belives as I do... God's word is the guide...not man's rules.

But Best, all throughout ye Olde Testyment JHVH was smoting the heck outta people. I don't get it.

[best]

Originally Posted by windysan

But Best, all throughout ye Olde Testyment JHVH was smoting the heck outta people. I don't get it.

Theology course 102 would give you the answer *LOL*

smote now or smote later...God is all knowing and he knew from the beginning I would be pigheaded and stubborn till I was 43 years old. I fit in His plan in a manner that only He understands. If my choice was to never accept God..what difference would it make if he smote me now or later?

As Lot asked...for 50 would you save the city? Yes for 50 I would. Ok Lord but for 10 would you save the city? Yes even for 10 I would. God knew before he did any smoting who was accepting and who was not.

[angelgirl]

Wow, what a wonderful thread.. This is like Theology 101.. Keep going..

I am learning..

Prayers to you all,, (and me )
Becky

[windysan]

Oh, Senor Lot, that incestuous old drunken clodhopper. He's one of my favorites. Him and Onan. The predestination/free will debate always made me think too hard resulting in severe migraines. Pelagius and Augustine battled enough about that stuff....I'm leaving it to the big thinkers like those two. My mom's a Presbyterian and my stepdad is a Presbyterian minister. The Presbies are notorious Augustiniacs. I've thought about saying, "well, you know I'm just predestined to burn".....nah, better not.

With all the religions out there in the world it is hard for me to tell Monty that I choose the religion behind Curtain #3. It's tough, ya know?

For those who have made the leap...congratulations. Glad you found it and whatnot. Me? I just don't know. I'm incredibly ignorant of most everything.

[aasharon90]

Windy...hi Sharon here....

I dont get into all those big words and all that confusing stuff about religion either....It has to be very simple for me to understand....and I mean very simple....simple enough for a little child to understand.....

They do have little children books at a religious store or a book store that i enjoy looking at. Picture books are good to for children..with just a few pages...... Books without words is also good....just the illustrations is a good place to start....I like that....do u?

I would look at the pictures of what this Man up in the sky made for us....the flowers, sky, etc. ...then i would see this Man in a white robe sitting under a big tree with a ring of litle children around Him....That is the picture that stays in my mind....only because its comforting to me....To know this One person is the Man and He has all Power....He loves children....and the children love Him....He listens to them..talkes with them....makes them laugh, smile....He places His arm around them for comforting.... That to me is what i need....Someone to hold me and comfort me and protect me from all the hurt in the world.....

Then the trees, flowers....He made those for us to enjoy...to admire....

He wants you to have those feelings inside u....to Appreciate the joy and loviliness of things.

Then as u look thru the little books you will see how He helped people....
He would want u to do the same thing....To help someone else....even if its just opening the door for someone....to say a kind and nice word to someone...to smile at them....to have kind thoughts about people inside u whether u like them or not.....Do unto others as u would have them do to u....

You wouldnt want someone to call u a dirty name or talk about u behind ur back would u? Then try not to do that to others....

I try to think of the innocense of little children...before their little heads r filled with bad things.... Children r pure...babies r pure....immitate a small child of innocence..... A small child would not lie, cheat, steal....

So we try to learn for them as live a pure life as best as we can ...feeling the joy inside us as children do.... look at them today..when u pass one that is smiling...laughing...playing.....it brings joy to my heart....

Begin there and see what happens....