Experience, Strength and Hope.

[toad]

I have a question for those who go to AA. The AA Preamble states in the first sentence "Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other, that they may solve their common problem and help others recover from alcoholism." The AA preamble is read at most AA meeting, right after the serenity prayer.

My question is if Jesus Christ is part of my "experience, strenght and hope." should I not mention this?

Another question: Should someone be allowed to tell me that I cannot share certain parts of my "experience, strength and hope?"

I very seldom share about Jesus at meetings, too much good AA recovery stuff to share that is more helpful. But, I attend meeting where some people will mention Jesus. They don't say that if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior you will go to Hell. They just mention Jesus as being their Higher Power. I think that very few AA's I know would tolerate someone to preach at an AA meeting. Even Christian AA's with some sobriety know this.

We have a joker who had 28 years sober and relapsed. He stayed out there for about 4 years, and accumilated 4 DWI's. He has maybe a few months under his belt at this time. He does not seem to be working the steps and is suffering (in my opinion) from untreated alcoholism. He is restless, irritable, and discontented. He complains about Christians being in meetings who mention Jesus. He even says that "amen" should not be said.

After 10 years 9 1/2 months in recovery through Alcoholics Anonymous, I would like to snatch him up by the short hairs and give him a serious tongue lashing.

I am working on feeding and allowing my resent to grow......I know this.

I just don't think that some joker should be able to tell me that I cannot share parts of my experience, strength and hope.

Thanks for letting me rant..............I feel a little better after being able to see my feelings in print........thanks for the meeting.

[Astro]

Originally Posted by toad

After 10 years 9 1/2 months in recovery through Alcoholics Anonymous, I would like to snatch him up by the short hairs and give him a serious tongue lashing.

I am working on feeding and allowing my resent to grow......I know this.

I just don't think that some joker should be able to tell me that I cannot share parts of my experience, strength and hope.

Awesome rant, can I help with the lashing? I totally agree with you, toad.

Seems to me that there's rarely a meeting that I attend where I don't disagree with someone, more often than not I'd like to choke somebody for vomiting up their "version" of recovery.

And when I leave those meetings, I start to question my lack of tolerance and compassion for those individuals. As far as I'm concerned, they're untreated and they're still sick and suffering, so the best I can do is pray for their recovery.

As for this thought you shared: I just don't think that some joker should be able to tell me that I cannot share parts of my experience, strength and hope. nobody can tell me anything, unless I allow it. Take what I want, and leave the rest lying on the floor.

[aasharon90]

As you see from the man with 25 yrs losing
his sobriety, its not quantity or number of
yrs. sober one has, but the quality of it.

Im not gonna take anyones inventory be-
cause im not perfect. At 18 yrs sober, that
could very well be me. However, today its
not.

Each one of us is an individual working our
own recovery program fitted to our own
special needs and circumstances.

No one can work my program just as
I cant work anothers. I am repectant
of ur program as id hope u r of mine.

If not....well that's not problem.

10 yrs of quality sobriety sound pretty
good to me.

[RecoveringBiker]

A.A. is A.A. aint no changing that. I often give thanks to my HP in meetings and it goes somethin like this;

"I thank my HP, whom I choose to call Jesus Christ for givin me a 24 hour reprieve today."

Aint no one told me I was wrong yet. Fact is, you have a right to your HP and to call him Lilly freaking Tomlin if you want. This is a spiritual program of recovery. I think going any further than simply suggesting, is where some go wrong. That's what Bill W. says an I believe it.

[Astro]

RB, welcome to SR, good to have another sober rider here. These forums have been a little quiet lately.

[toad]

Originally Posted by RecoveringBiker

Fact is, you have a right to your HP and to call him Lilly freaking Tomlin .

Now there's a strange thought.

Welcome to the forum RecoveringBiker. Hope you join us and share some of your experience strength and hope.

[CStyle]

Originally Posted by RecoveringBiker

A.A. is A.A. aint no changing that. I often give thanks to my HP in meetings and it goes somethin like this;

"I thank my HP, whom I choose to call Jesus Christ for givin me a 24 hour reprieve today."

+1

but I think there is a difference in stating your beliefs in this manner compared to someone going on about Jesus or Buda or Mohammad etc. etc. Yes I am a Christian, but I feel that religion has no place in a meeting of A.A. I am there to help the newcomer and the still suffering alcoholic. When I share in meetings I will use the term Higher Power. If I am talking to a person one on one I have no problem sharing my faith, but I let them bring up the subject. The last thing I want to do is deter someone because they have (most likely a very valid reason to them) a resentment against organized religion.

As far as the ops issue...obviously this guy you were referring to is a very sick person and should be treated as such. Someday by the grace of god, hopefully he will re-read We Agnostics and get over himself. lol.

[RecoveringBiker]

Originally Posted by Astro

Awesome rant, can I help with the lashing? I totally agree with you, toad.

Seems to me that there's rarely a meeting that I attend where I don't disagree with someone, more often than not I'd like to choke somebody for vomiting up their "version" of recovery.

And when I leave those meetings, I start to question my lack of tolerance and compassion for those individuals. As far as I'm concerned, they're untreated and they're still sick and suffering, so the best I can do is pray for their recovery.

As for this thought you shared: I just don't think that some joker should be able to tell me that I cannot share parts of my experience, strength and hope. nobody can tell me anything, unless I allow it. Take what I want, and leave the rest lying on the floor.

Better yet, just leave their recovery to them, and pick up with the last pat of your post. "Take what ya can use, and leave the rest." I completely agree with our new friend below-CS Lifestyle, share your faith outside the rooms. Inside the rooms, around the tables, AA should be practiced and nothing but the first 164 pages should be practiced. I have seen friendships destroyed, relationships ruined, and worst of all people leave the program over religion being pushed inside the rooms. The first 164 talks about God, and YOUR version of God.

[toad]

The second paragraph in the Medical View states that AA uses "Religion" and Fellowship or the herd instinct.....Pass It On, Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, and AA comes of Age explain about the Religious influences in the the beginnings of our fellowship. That is Christian influences......read it and weap if you want.....thats where we came from.

I will share what I want from my own experiences in AA meetings. If you can't handle that then take what you want and leave the rest.......

[CStyle]

Originally Posted by toad

The second paragraph in the Medical View states that AA uses "Religion" and Fellowship or the herd instinct.....Pass It On, Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, and AA comes of Age explain about the Religious influences in the the beginnings of our fellowship. That is Christian influences......read it and weap if you want.....thats where we came from.

I will share what I want from my own experiences in AA meetings. If you can't handle that then take what you want and leave the rest.......

So, what is more important to you Toad?- Being right or being happy? I am very familiar with the beginnings of AA and the basis of much of our program and the big book. Dr Bob had spent many years very devout and involved with his church and faith (and it never kept him sober). If it was not for the religious movement of the Oxford groups of the day and Bills involvement in those groups, we would surely not have the AA we have today. I can read through the first 164 pages of the big book and take many direct passages (including most of the 12 steps) and show you where they were taken from in the Bible. Read the book of James, heck AA was almost called the James Group.

Thankfully in Bills divine wisdom (with the help of the other founders) he saw the potential damage that being inclusive and "religious" could cause the newcomer. Hence the Preamble clearly states that "A.A. is not allied with
any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does
not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor
opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and
help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

My faith is a huge part of my story. AA is a "spiritual" program, not religious program. Just because I or you have found that spirituality through Christ, does not mean everyone else has to. Don't let your ego get between you and that suffering alcoholic that you could help. I share my faith in the most powerful way I know how, that is through leading by example.

[TonyB]

Originally Posted by toad

I have a question for those who go to AA. The AA Preamble states in the first sentence "Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other, that they may solve their common problem and help others recover from alcoholism." The AA preamble is read at most AA meeting, right after the serenity prayer.

My question is if Jesus Christ is part of my "experience, strenght and hope." should I not mention this?

Another question: Should someone be allowed to tell me that I cannot share certain parts of my "experience, strength and hope?"

I very seldom share about Jesus at meetings, too much good AA recovery stuff to share that is more helpful. But, I attend meeting where some people will mention Jesus. They don't say that if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior you will go to Hell. They just mention Jesus as being their Higher Power. I think that very few AA's I know would tolerate someone to preach at an AA meeting. Even Christian AA's with some sobriety know this.

We have a joker who had 28 years sober and relapsed. He stayed out there for about 4 years, and accumilated 4 DWI's. He has maybe a few months under his belt at this time. He does not seem to be working the steps and is suffering (in my opinion) from untreated alcoholism. He is restless, irritable, and discontented. He complains about Christians being in meetings who mention Jesus. He even says that "amen" should not be said.

After 10 years 9 1/2 months in recovery through Alcoholics Anonymous, I would like to snatch him up by the short hairs and give him a serious tongue lashing.

I am working on feeding and allowing my resent to grow......I know this.

I just don't think that some joker should be able to tell me that I cannot share parts of my experience, strength and hope.

Thanks for letting me rant..............I feel a little better after being able to see my feelings in print........thanks for the meeting.

Toad,
That's one of the things I love about you. You don't mind stirring up a hornets nest to get your point across. I love the way you posed it as a question. No one can fault you for asking a question.
One would be sadly mistaken if one thought drunks were dumb.

I agree with you. If I want to talk about shooting dope as it relates to my recovery from alcohol, that's what this program is all about.
The thing is, I had to learn to respect, is that my "right" to be a Christian is just as valid as their right to not be one.
Like my ma used to say "tough titty said the kitty, but the milk is still good."
L&R

[RecoveringBiker]

Originally Posted by toad

The second paragraph in the Medical View states that AA uses "Religion" and Fellowship or the herd instinct.....Pass It On, Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, and AA comes of Age explain about the Religious influences in the the beginnings of our fellowship. That is Christian influences......read it and weap if you want.....thats where we came from.

I will share what I want from my own experiences in AA meetings. If you can't handle that then take what you want and leave the rest.......

That's your right, and certainly the focus of the program states take what you can use and leave the rest. Unfortunately, you have to wonder how many people you alienate/kill with religion, don't you?

It's immaterial what anyone likes or dislikes, the real thrust is that AA is not affiliated with....well you know the rest. The program is based on Christianity-I haven't heard anyone argue that. You seem to run this board, and with an iron fist, is that your intention? Or is it the Christian ideology to let those that will, come as they are? That's the Jesus I know and love.

[toad]

[QUOTE=RecoveringBiker;2462746] You seem to run this board, and with an iron fist, is that your intention? [QUOTE]

All I do is post here........If you don't like what I post then don't go there.

Your words were pretty harsh to me, but not strong enough to change me.

Jesus loves you my friend..........I love you too, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

[RecoveringBiker]

[QUOTE=toad;2463577][QUOTE=RecoveringBiker;2462746] You seem to run this board, and with an iron fist, is that your intention?

All I do is post here........If you don't like what I post then don't go there.

Your words were pretty harsh to me, but not strong enough to change me.

Jesus loves you my friend..........I love you too, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

I told you you had right to the way you think. You told me you didn't care what I thought-that's obvious the way you storm around here. I told you the Jesus I know is all about come as you are-not I say anything I want. Others seem to get the same impression; if honesty is harsh, then hang me. I don't say anything around here anyhow-looks to me like you're jus danged near alone. Now what's that say to you.

Now let me bow outta here and let you run your board. God bless.

[Hurricane]

How funny is it that no one said anything when I heard one talk about that big oak tree being their HP, yet they gripe when we proclaim Jesus is Lord.
Hope you don't wear a Harley Davidson shirt to a meeting.
Praise God for those who have shared and continue to share their faith on this board, it has helped me stay sober.

[Goat]

So... As the resident non-Christian, I should probably chime in here

Nothing you said in your original post would cause me even a moment's pause in a meeting. Jesus is the one who is keeping you sober and alive. I see absolutely no problem with sharing that.

Where I personally draw the line in meetings is when I am told point-blank that if I am unwilling to become a Christian that I am unwelcome in the room, or at least I am unworthy of the room's ESH. This really happens, and it has happened to me more than a few times.

Toad, I appreciate your wisdom, your experience, and your point of view on this forum. You just keep on doin' what you're doin', cause it helps me along with many others.

-Goat

[Astro]

Originally Posted by Goat

Toad, I appreciate your wisdom, your experience, and your point of view on this forum. You just keep on doin' what you're doin', cause it helps me along with many others.

I'll second that. Merry Christmas to you both. May we live in peace.

[24hrsAday]

Originally Posted by Astro

I'll second that. Merry Christmas to you both. May we live in peace.

Yep.. I Will Also! Merry X-Mas!!

[TonyB]

Originally Posted by Goat

So... As the resident non-Christian, I should probably chime in here

Where I personally draw the line in meetings is when I am told point-blank that if I am unwilling to become a Christian that I am unwelcome in the room, or at least I am unworthy of the room's ESH. This really happens, and it has happened to me more than a few times.

-Goat

I agree and it is a sad thing. People that can't see the woods through the trees. It's not my job to inflict my points of view on others, but to simply share how things have worked for me as it relates to recovery.

[ckbeep]

Just curious, since this is a biker forum. Are you referring him to Gypsy Jokers? If so, does that matter, him being part of a outlaw club? Just wondering why you used it in your post almost like you are sterotyping him. Once again just wondering not trying to stir up ****.

I personally have a hard time getting to AA because of the whole Bible and Jesus thing. I am not a religious person, and I feel people there are pushing religion. Maybe I do need to find Jesus, only time will tell if that journey is in my life.

[Astro]

ckbeep, welcome to the forums on SR.

I'm hoping we'll keep this thread friendly, light, and polite.

It's taken me almost five years to accept Jesus Christ as my savior, and I'm doing it in the rooms of Celebrate Recovery, not AA. I came to AA to achieve sobriety and stay that way, so when the topic of religion comes up I can take what I want and leave the rest.

[BillJ]

Originally Posted by ckbeep

I personally have a hard time getting to AA because of the whole Bible and Jesus thing. I am not a religious person, and I feel people there are pushing religion. Maybe I do need to find Jesus, only time will tell if that journey is in my life.

Although AA's co-founders were Christian, AA has a well-established and specific, codified tradition of being non-denominational. No belief in a "higher power", let alone a specific deity, is required for AA membership. I've been sober in AA just shy of 32 years. I do believe there is some sort of higher power at work in this world, but I don't know its name, and I'm not about to try to push my belief on anyone else.

If the people at your local AA group are proselytizing for Jesus (or any other god) they are violating AA's long-held traditions. I would hope you seek out another group, which does adhere to tradition. Your local AA intergroup office or AA's World Services Meeting Locator can help.

AA works, whether you're a churchgoer, free spirit, agnostic or non-believer. Give it an honest try, and you may be amazed.

[toad]

Originally Posted by BillJ

AA works, whether you're a churchgoer, free spirit, agnostic or non-believer. Give it an honest try, and you may be amazed.

thanks bill..........My Sponsor says that if we hang around AA long enough, and continue to sit in the chairs around the tables, we will get some of the program by assmosis.

[BillJ]

Originally Posted by toad

My Sponsor says that if we hang around AA long enough, and continue to sit in the chairs around the tables, we will get some of the program by assmosis.

I tried the "assmosis" method, and didn't stay sober. However, hanging around AA, I did soak up the reality of AA life, and it was a far sight better than the facts of my life!

Once I got serious about working AA's Twelve Steps, the way they're written, my recovery took hold, and took off like a rocket!

Happy New Year from the Texas Gulf Coast, y'all! The sun is shinin', a cold wind is blowin', and my wife, my friends and I are fixin' to go enjoy a New Year's Day brunch in a restaurant overlookin' the Gulf Coast beach. Hard life, ain't it?

[toad]

bringing it upfront again.....upfront is the name of the meeting I attend every Friday Evening at a Prison down the road....been going in for over six years, a true blessing to my recovery.