Finger-pointing, taking the inventory of others

[The_Hammer]

If I have learned anything in my sobriety, it would have to be that I must take the program wholeheartedly and literally at face value. “Half measures availed us…”, I stood at the turning point several times. How could this be? Isn’t there one turning point? My sponsor, Ice pick had sobered up when he was a tender 17 and simply never looked back. My admiration for him is immense, but I know that others take other paths. I was truly crushed at having found myself helplessly addicted to the pain medicine that had been so beneficial to me before. Damned if I wasn’t caught in a sea of madness again, swallowing handfuls of oxycontin, morphine and hydrocodones in staggering doses and conning three doctors for more. Addiction held me by the throat and I was dying-again. Hadn’t I learned anything in over ten years sober? The answer is yes, I had learned much but I was still sick.
Folks like Ice pick are worthy of great respect. With thirty plus years of sobriety, Ice pick knows a thing or two about keeping sobriety, loving life and being honest with himself and others. Ice knows that being true to self is critical to being true to others. Ice knows that taking the inventory of anyone, let alone those with decades of sobriety is a dangerous proposition at very least. Comparing your sobriety to others is a game that alcoholism plays to con you into thinking that you’re now; “well”. How long can it be before you con yourself into believing that just one beer or pill or joint won’t hurt? I speak from experience I speak with firsthand knowledge. I swore to myself that I could never relapse; my program was solid; why just look at what I had accomplished! I told myself that my sobriety was as strong as Ice pick’s. Ice pick stayed sober, I did not.
Even though I count it all blessing that I had the brush with opiates, I do not recommend taking my path to sobriety and serenity. Taking the inventory of others is not recommended either, such arrogance is a pathway to destruction to be sure.
Today, humility, honesty, openness and willingness are my keynotes to a successful 24 hours. I am keenly aware of the tenuousness of my life, of my sobriety. What a blessing it is to truly accept that ‘I am where I am supposed to be’, Ice pick and all my dear brothers with decades are where they need to be and I stand humbly before them to learn. They are not gods, they are men and women who have learned to solve their own drink problem; one day at a time. I am not unique, I can benefit from anyone whom alcohol has beaten into submission as well. And I do this through taking my own inventory, cleaning my own house, living and allowing others to live.
The admins have taken the stance that the Tenth tradition is not important, at least not important enough to take a stance. It is more important to protect one or avoid confrontation. Imagine if Jesus Christ were afraid of confrontation? Fine, watch people die. Watch them drink themselves to death so that you; "can post whatever you want". I am out, period. I honestly tried to find a point where I could justify staying. All were selfish.

[Morning Glory]

The hard part about all of this is you draw the admins into a fight and then pretty much ask us to choose sides by making a decision. If we make one decision we choose that side. If we make another decision we choose the other side. We will be the bad guys no matter what we do.

Had the requests been made before the arguments and resentments it would have been no problem. It took about 2 minutes to open the spirituality forum when we saw the need because there were no fights. There was just a need. It took a couple of years to open a secular forum because every time we tried it caused more problems than solutions. We kept trying and found a way.

So now the few of us who have been tossing this around also have 2 sides and we haven't been able to reach an agreement. Starting yet a new thread which will create new resentments doesn't improve the situation.

Seems the fingers are now being pointed at the admins and it's not our fight. What you are requesting is not the problem. Working with both side to find a solution is the problem. I know it has added a heck of a lot of stress on Doug and I with everything else we have going on in our lives and on these forums and we haven't been able to solve the problem. If we back off it's not because we aren't trying. If we make this choice we lose this member. If we make that choice we lose that member.

The best solution would be for you guys to compromise and let go of the resentments and decide on a solution that would work for all of you instead of taking sides and asking us to referee.

Doug and I want what's best for all involved.

[The_Hammer]

Cop out. We want you to do what's right. Why don't you count how many have left the forum and review your answer. Then try to fathom how many never stayed.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by The_Hammer

The admins have taken the stance that the Tenth tradition is not important, at least not important enough to take a stance.

I really don't understand how you can even say this.

The Traditions exist to protect the fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous and AA.

This forum is not Narcotics Anonymous or AA and neither are the adminstration bound by any Traditions when making decisions.Furthermore how could I even expect others to be governed by the principles and codes that I live by.

If anything it would seem to me that what you are doing is totally contrary to what the Traditions speak of because you are bringing NA/AA into what I consider to be an outside issue and public controversy.

I cannot expect public life to be governed by NA/AA Traditions.

[toad]

Originally Posted by Peter

I cannot expect public life to be governed by NA Traditions.

Well said Peter.

AA and NA have no opinion on this Forum.

It is good to share AA and NA here, but people who bring the AA and NA name into public conterversy, should leave. They neither help AA/NA or this forum.

Other bikers that are in recovery will come in and be involved in time. Just like meetings on the outside, people come and go. Those that continue to bring the AA/NA name into public controversy.................good riddins

[recoveringnky]

Originally Posted by toad

Those that continue to bring the AA/NA name into public controversy.................good riddins

Ouch...harsh.

I hate it that this forum has turned out this way. I used to love coming here and sharing and checking in on those brothers and sisters that I have grown to love and who have become such an important part of my sobriety. It really breaks my heart. I'll really miss those folks!! It takes all kinds, I know that.

As one door shuts, another one opens......

Take care,
Kym

[The_Hammer]

Originally Posted by toad

Well said Peter.

AA and NA have no opinion on this Forum.

It is good to share AA and NA here, but people who bring the AA and NA name into public conterversy, should leave. They neither help AA/NA or this forum.

Other bikers that are in recovery will come in and be involved in time. Just like meetings on the outside, people come and go. Those that continue to bring the AA/NA name into public controversy.................good riddins

Thanks, you made my point for me. I know a loving and kind Jesus Christ that is in practice, An attraction, not a promotional. I will continue to pray for you, and those you turn away.

[Morning Glory]

Toad,

You are a guest on this forum and have no right to tell someone else to leave because they have a different opinion than you do.

And what about the other bikers here who are not involved in this division?
Does anyone care what this is doing to them?

We have a request by a few members of the biker's forum to open a NA/AA biker's forum that sticks to the NA/AA literature and leaves outside sharing, which includes specific religious sharing, at the door.

We have a substance abuse forum which is for open topic and a NA forum that is 12 step based.
We have an alcoholism forum which is for open topics and a AA forum which is 12 step based.
We have a spirituality forum which is open for all beliefs and a Christian forum which is based on Christian beliefs.
We have a secular forum which is for non 12 step related topics and a secular forum which is based on the 12 steps.

Right now we have the biker's forum which is for open discussion.

We are not going to open a forum that causes more division. This is why we held off for so long on the secular forum.

All members of this forum are welcomed to join in on this discussion to find a peaceful solution.

[toad]

I didn't tell anyone or ask anyone to leave. They have left on thier own. My point was that if they bring the AA name into public controversy, then I will stand up for AA and say they should not do this. When I stood up for AA and said this forum was not exclusive AA, some left.......that is cool with me. AA controversy is not good, especially in a public forum.

I have asked no one to leave.

I think another AA/NA exclusive Bikers in Recovery would be good. As a Christian AA biker in recovery I could post in either one.

My question is what about the Scripture that is quoted in the Big Book of AA, would this be alright to post in the exclusive AA/NA forum, or would only quotes that were not Scripture, regardless if they were in the Big Book be quoted?

I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I have asked someone to leave. I never wanted anyone to leave. I considered them my friends. Rarly, Hammer, Billj, and Kym.

[Astro]

I'm not sure how this all started, but it turns my stomach to see brothers and sisters in recovery taking shots at each other. This is a public forum, I hope we can appreciate and accept that we won't always see eye-to-eye on the same issues, and that we'll be able to practice a little love and tolerance and let it go.

I'd prefer to stay focused on my recovery, and to set a good example for the newcomers to recovery, than to waste my time bickering over something I probably won't care about a week from now.

Gentleman, how about calling a truce here?

[Morning Glory]

Those are questions I can't answer Toad and those are things that would need to be worked out before a new forum is created.

[grateful2b]

Originally Posted by toad

I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I have asked someone to leave. I never wanted anyone to leave. I considered them my friends. Rarly, Hammer, Billj, and Kym.

I have followed this 'discussion' from the beginning with sadness.
Toad, I was offended by your "good riddens" comment, and now I am confused....what 'were' you trying to say by that remark?

[Hurricane]

I have 12 step meetings I attend and can get all the rigid stuff I need at some of them. I like this forum the way it is, and will continue to post as my heart leads. God willing, this forum will revive again.

[best]

As for what to share, when to share and how to share...

First and foremost, I am a Christian. I also happen to be a sober Christian and share how I found both paths of life.

Both as a Christian and as someone in recovery...attraction is very important. People, when they look at me and my actions should see something good and something they want.

I believe it was St Francis who said... witness to others and every so often use words. In other words...let our actions speak for us (attraction) but he also says we should use words as well.

For those who will run away because they don't like what I say... many run away no matter what is said.
I strive to find a balance so I can deliever an important message.... Jesus has risen. Along with that message, I strive to deliever the message of the hope of a sober life also.
What good is it that a person finds a sober life but is still dead to Christ?
Our time on earth is not the end, we will stand before God one day and unless people are told the Good News of Christ...on that day, sober or not won't make a difference.

Deny Me before others and I will say... Get away from me for I do not know you.
I can't and won't stay quiet about Christ. He has saved me from myself and turned a drydrunk of many years into a sober person that gives of self to others. Just as many speak of what AA has done for them (saved their earthy life) I share the Good News I have found that has saved my life to come (eternal life)(a life in Heaven).
Paul says it well as for how to seek a balance... Strive to be all things to all people as we share the Good News of Christ who has died and risen for our sins.

I have not seen a person fail who has continued to walk in His footsteps(Christ's footsteps).

It is when we get off the narrow path that we see problems pull us away.

[Peter]

These forums/boards has always been a special place for me and I have met some wonderful people here.

Because this is the internet the diversity of peoples and opinions I have encountered has taught me a higher level of tolerance and patience and has even made me a more open minded person. However AA and NA will always remain for me the foundation for my recovery. Nothing can replace that. I love this place for it's openness and the relative freedom we have to share about our journey through recovery, but AA/NA will always be my home to which I return whenever the controversies of the world are getting me low.

I have had my share of disagreements here and my share of conflict over opinions. There were times when it may have seemed I was on the "upside" of a rousing debate but there have been times too when I have had to back down. Thus is the nature of the game when I sign up to participate on a public forum. There were times I felt like yanking the cords and tossing the computer into the abyss and times when I have just had to take some 'time out" but I have never walked.

The Biker forum has always been a close bunch of guys and I have always admired that. There may be aspects of this disagreement which i do not even fully understand but one thing I do know is that where there is true friendship and when our recovery and our faith is solid we can overcome the problems.

I don't like it when my requests go unheeded. I don't like when I don't get what I want but it is easier for me to accept a decision when I try to understand that perhaps my way is not the right answer after all. It is easier for me to accept a decision when I try to understand that perhaps now is not the right time for it.

I have an obligation as an AA/NA member to share responsibly. I know I have to use tact and discretion and wisdom when sharing my "truth" about recovery, but at the same time I cannot deny my experiences or the things I believe and I have seen much squirming in meetings when I share my own "non christian" beliefs. I squirm too whenever anyone mentions the name of the Great JC and somebody down the back says "halleleujah". However I will stand up if someone pops open a bible and starts to read. I just don't know if I really believe that an addict is going to die because somebody in the room talks about Jesus or quotes a line of scripture or for that matter if an addict is even going to die because I share of my "non Christian" beliefs.

I will always defend AA/NA and uphold The Traditions and Principles of our fellowship. But I believe this forum can (and should) remain for the free and open sharing for which it was intended.