Is it wrong to share about Jesus here? - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

toad · 06-22-2008, 09:16 PM

I would like to know why Rarly singles me out when I share about Jesus Christ as my Higher Power? I have heard him confess Jesus as his Higher Power in Bikers in Recovery, but when I do it he says it is wrong.

I have found that most of the faults that I find in others, I find in myself.

Look close Rarly..........what do you see??????

Hurricane · 06-22-2008, 10:33 PM

Don't think it's just you.
I believe there is nothing wrong with sharing your faith on this forum.
It is not an AA or NA forum, and AA is not the only way for one to recover.
As I have said before, I have benefited greatly from the sharing of your faith.

The_Hammer · 06-23-2008, 05:03 AM

It is wrong. And here's why.

Bill W. made it very clear that some drunks cannot or will not submit to a "standard God". Some have trouble with a God of their own understanding even. If even one wet drunk is offended (who cares about anyone else?), then in my humble opinion, we have murdered that man or woman.

When I came into this program, if someone came to me with religion, I would have run like heck. I could not fathom a God in that particular way. Attraction, not promotion,

Notice I don't even bring up AA?

toad · 06-23-2008, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Hammer

It is wrong. And here's why.

Bill W. made it very clear that some drunks cannot or will not submit to a "standard God". Some have trouble with a God of their own understanding even. If even one wet drunk is offended (who cares about anyone else?), then in my humble opinion, we have murdered that man or woman.

When I came into this program, if someone came to me with religion, I would have run like heck. I could not fathom a God in that particular way. Attraction, not promotion,

Notice I don't even bring up AA?

What does Bill W. have to do with Bikers in Recovery forum????

Are you saying that a Christian biker in recovery cannot share their experience, strength and hope (the exact nature of the post that started this) here on this forum?

You are so full of it hammer, you said you "Notice I don't even bring up AA?" you mentioned Bill W. and "this program." You trying to pull the wool over my eyes? I see through you......go tell that crap to someone else.

I hope the Administrator comments on this, because if I cannot share my hope here as a Christian biker then I am out of here for good.

Seems like some in this forum want to change this Bikers in Recovery to Bikers in AA only.............I am a member of AA, and AA saved my life, but I do not post here because I am a member of AA. I post here as a biker in recovery.

The_Hammer · 06-23-2008, 07:34 AM

Quote:

What does Bill W. have to do with Bikers in Recovery forum????

Recovery.

Quote:

Are you saying that a Christian biker in recovery cannot share their experience, strength and hope (the exact nature of the post that started this) here on this forum?

No, but you don't push your personal ideas of God on a desparate man-read the post, don't read into it.

Quote:

You are so full of it hammer, you said you "Notice I don't even bring up AA?" you mentioned Bill W. and "this program." You trying to pull the wool over my eyes? I see through you......go tell that crap to someone else.

If you accept Bill W.s way as AA, then you must accept his path to sobriety. So why do you fight it? ANd with venom, not the love and kindness shown to you, as well as respect. What would be my motive for pulling anything over anyone? AA didn't save me, but it kept me sober long enough to decide which way I wanted to go. I call my HP Jesus Christ as well, so if there's something you think you know about me, then you can take my inventory, until then, treat me with the same respect Christ afforded others.

Quote:

Seems like some in this forum want to change this Bikers in Recovery to Bikers in AA only.............I am a member of AA, and AA saved my life, but I do not post here because I am a member of AA. I post here as a biker in recovery.

You admit where your sobriety came from, even credit it for saving your life, but deny having to practice it in all your affairs? I for one will hate to see you go if indeed you do, venom or not, I love you and there aint a damn thing you can do about it.

toad · 06-23-2008, 08:15 AM

Hammer, nothing you wrote makes any sense to me. You are very good at walking around a point without getting close to it.

Bill W. has nothing to do with this forum. This is not AA.

You accused me of "pushing my personal ideas." In that post I said "share this with me" and shared only my personal experiences. Never once did I "push" anything. Where are you coming from when you say "push?"

I ain't leaving yet! I will stand against anyone who is not the Administrator, or the Forum Moderator who trys to dictate to me what and how I post. You and Rarly are not in authority to tell me what to post.

BillJ · 06-23-2008, 08:59 AM

Toad,

You're right - this isn't an exclusively AA forum. However, it is a place where suffering alcoholics occasionally turn for help. As AA members, I feel we have a responsibility to those folks wherever we meet them - in AA, at the local motorcycle shop, through our families and friends, or on this forum. Pages 44-47 in the book Alcoholics Anonymous neatly sum up the issue for me.

My concern about injecting religious doctrine into this forum is the risk that a newcomer might confuse those religious beliefs with the AA program itself, mistake AA for a "Christian (or other religious) teaching", and reject AA as a result. If you're going to talk about recovering through AA, and then include specific religious references, you risk sending a mixed message.

Please note that there are forums here at SR intended for Christians in Recovery, which might serve your need for specifically Christian discussion. Also note that I, for one, am not suggesting you can't even mention the name of your Higher Power here - just that you tread softly lest you scare off someone you might help.

I know this is a sensitive topic, and I hope what I've shared is received with the spirit in which it's offered - peace and reconciliation. I'd like to see us resolve this and get back to being the SR fellowship I know and love. I hate to see my brothers fighting amongst themselves.

The_Hammer · 06-23-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toad

Hammer, nothing you wrote makes any sense to me. You are very good at walking around a point without getting close to it.

Bill W. has nothing to do with this forum. This is not AA.

You accused me of "pushing my personal ideas." In that post I said "share this with me" and shared only my personal experiences. Never once did I "push" anything. Where are you coming from when you say "push?"

I ain't leaving yet! I will stand against anyone who is not the Administrator, or the Forum Moderator who trys to dictate to me what and how I post. You and Rarly are not in authority to tell me what to post.

I addressed your post line for line. You won't hear.

It is not Bikers for Jesus either. I hope no one dies. I wil no longer discuss this in any way shape or form.

recoveringnky · 06-23-2008, 09:45 AM

I hate to see you all fighting too! I love you guys!!
Hugs,
Kym

**best** · 06-23-2008, 10:33 AM

Toad

I enjoy reading your posts and you touch on a subject that I battle with all the time.... When to share and when or where not to share.

As far as any forum on SR goes... any member can share their own ES&H on any forum here, other then men in the women's forum or women in the men's forum.

I see your shares as an ES&H not as a bible thumping and don't see anything wrong with it. My own ES&H from before becoming a Christian helps me better understand when and what I share (as I remember my own denial) but the life changes that have happened when I accepted Christ into my heart have me want to share all the more about Him. My first denial was ..self and alcohol. My last denial I got past was denial of Christ and once that denial was removed... well you know how our life changes with that. Never have I known such joy in all my life.
This is not AA and if it was, I would say that what we share needs to follow AA rules. It is for that reason that I may never be seen sharing at a AA meeting. I won't or can't keep quiet about what the Lord has done for me.
Respect of the beliefs of others is a two way street. People will defend their denial or they will defend their beliefs till the end of days and all should do so with respect of SR rules.
I will continue to share my own ES&H and let others accept what they want to accept with the hopes that they can see my joy and know what the Lord has done in my life.

**best** · 06-23-2008, 10:49 AM

Tolerance: Please respect the rights of others to hold beliefs and perspectives, which differ from yours. Our Sober Recovery Forum members are of many nationalities, ages, and cultures. Healthy, vigorous debate will further our goals, but only when guided by the tolerance that springs from mutual embrace of mission.
Full Policies, Rules & Regulations...
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ting-tips.html (Policies, Rules & Posting Tips)

Rarly Harley · 06-23-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toad

I would like to know why Rarly singles me out when I share about Jesus Christ as my Higher Power?

The unfailing love of the LORD never ends! By his mercies we have been kept from complete destruction. Great is his faithfulness; his mercies begin afresh each day. I say to myself, “The LORD is my inheritance; therefore, I will hope in him!”
Lamentations 3:14-23 NLT

Toad: It is one thing to share about your HP my Brother, but it is quite another to quote scripture from the Bible. That stuff can kill a suffering alchoholic Bro....

Hammer said it clearly...
Bill W. made it very clear that some drunks cannot or will not submit to a "standard God". Some have trouble with a God of their own understanding even. If even one wet drunk is offended (who cares about anyone else?), then in my humble opinion, we have murdered that man or woman.
When I came into this program, if someone came to me with religion, I would have run like heck. I could not fathom a God in that particular way. Attraction, not promotion,

And Brother Bill so eloquently....

My concern about injecting religious doctrine into this forum is the risk that a newcomer might confuse those religious beliefs with the AA program itself, mistake AA for a "Christian (or other religious) teaching", and reject AA as a result. If you're going to talk about recovering through AA, and then include specific religious references, you risk sending a mixed message.

This is not about you Toad. It is about the still suffering alchoholic that may turn away from AA and die, if he/she thinks they have to conform to a particular religious belief. My personal belief is that God sent Ebby to Bill with this one challenge that saved my life and the lives of countless others..." ( Why don't you choose your own conception of God )...? If you go back in my posts, you will see that I have spoken up on every occasion that specific religious beliefs have been addressed in this forum. I love you Bro, all I ask is that you post in the Christians in Recovery forum, when you need to share the specific beliefs and doctrines that you are so obviously passionate about. I pray that you stay with us Bro and that our primary focus remains ensuring that what we discuss here is attractive to all the suffering alchoholics who are lurking about, wondering what it is we have to offer, will not be frightened away with religious doctrine...

sticker · 06-23-2008, 12:05 PM

thanks guys for bringing this topic up...since it is one of the reasons i dont spend much time in this forum...i am not a christian...i am not a member of A.A..I am a biker in recover and had hoped to find a home here but must admit all the bible and big book stuff gets hard for me to take. there are forums on SR for these things when i want to talk about my own personal beliefs i go to them..out of respect

The_Hammer · 06-23-2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sticker

thanks guys for bringing this topic up...since it is one of the reasons i dont spend much time in this forum...i am not a christian...i am not a member of A.A..I am a biker in recover and had hoped to find a home here but must admit all the bible and big book stuff gets hard for me to take. there are forums on SR for these things when i want to talk about my own personal beliefs i go to them..out of respect

Bingo!

toad · 06-23-2008, 01:55 PM

I will continue to post my experience, strength and hope on this forum and use Scripture whenever I want.

All who object will just have to accept it.

I will not intentionally say anything that might be harmful to a newcomer.

If the Forum Moderator or the Administrator address this issue and tell me that I cannot share my recovery and the influences in my recovery, then I will cease, and only then.

I am a Christian biker in recovery and this is where I want to post.......thank you.

toad · 06-23-2008, 02:05 PM

Share this with me please

How can a loving God harden some hearts and soften others? God does not change, God is the same today, yesterday, and forever, so why are some people affected one way and others another way? God doesn’t change, so the answer must be found in us. Finis Dake and his commentaries on the Bible have opened my eyes to the fact that God is, and is unchangeable. Many times in my prayer I try and get God to change something or maybe I try and get God to see something more my way. I am realizing that this form of prayer is like talking to the sun. Bill Wilson, one of the co-founders of AA said it over and over, “Thy will, not mine, be done.” For years on occasions I would attend churches, go to various AA meeting, group therapies, and other types of activities that could have had a beneficial affect on my life, and I would come away thinking, this is not going to work, they are asking too much of me, I can never submit to God this way, and on and on. As a result my heart became hardened to God and these various programs of recovery. God actually hardened my heart, that’ right, a loving God hardened my heart, this is because God did not change. Finis Dake uses the concept of wax and clay sitting out in the sun on a hot day. The wax will melt, and the clay will dry and become harder. It was the same sun that melted one and hardened the other. When I came to realize that God works the same way in my life, I knew that in order to be molded so as to be of service to God, I had to change the substance of my heart. I had to stop thinking only of myself, and start thinking of others. This changes ones heart, and allows God to soften and mold the person. God is doing for me what I could not do for myself........toad

BillJ · 06-23-2008, 03:38 PM

How do you reconcile these two remarks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by toad

I will continue to post my experience, strength and hope on this forum and use Scripture whenever I want.

All who object will just have to accept it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toad

I had to stop thinking only of myself, and start thinking of others.

Hurricane · 06-23-2008, 04:35 PM

I'm in the middle of the road, but just as recovery groups have group conscience's, I would say this group has also done so. I may not always agree with a group's decision, but after speaking my peace, I'll let it be.

toad · 06-23-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillJ

How do you reconcile these two remarks?

I see no problem with it. My sharing is not to hear my own voice, but that some part of my experience strength and hope might help another.

This is a good spot to share some Scripture.

"Judge not that you be not judged." Matthew 7:1 New King James Version

I didn't start this..........just defending my posts.

toad · 06-23-2008, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recoveringnky

I hate to see you all fighting too! I love you guys!!
Hugs,
Kym

love you too Kym.....

share this with me:

"We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demonstrating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves.

"Instead, we looked at the human defects of these people, and sometimes used their shortcomings as a basis of wholesale condemnation. We talked of intolerance, while we were intolerant ourselves. We missed the reality and the beauty of the forest because we were diverted by the ugliness of some of its trees. We never gave the spiritual side of life a fair hearing."

© 2001 AAWS, Inc., Fourth Edition; Alcoholics Anonymous, pgs. 49-50

Jazzed_N_MD · 06-24-2008, 03:43 AM

(put in "F" word where appropiate)

It's my F'n turn. I'm a F'n biker! I dont care what you F'n do to live your F'n life! If you walk your talk, you're all right with me.

I get pissd off when some F'n citizen tries to tell me my religion wont get me into Heaven because thiers is better or thiers is right for me.

This is why I am here. God as I understand Him! This is for each and every individual to read. "WE' me

06-22-2008, 09:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
toad Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mountain grove, missouri Posts: 1,075	Is it wrong to share about Jesus here? I would like to know why Rarly singles me out when I share about Jesus Christ as my Higher Power? I have heard him confess Jesus as his Higher Power in Bikers in Recovery, but when I do it he says it is wrong. I have found that most of the faults that I find in others, I find in myself. Look close Rarly..........what do you see?????? __________________ Tet Vet PGR member 2007 Road King Classic 96 C.I. Six-speed Vivid black God......... Let You........... be enough for me.

06-23-2008, 05:03 AM	#3 (permalink)
The_Hammer Beat, but not beaten.... Join Date: May 2006 Location: Fremont, NE Posts: 729	It is wrong. And here's why. Bill W. made it very clear that some drunks cannot or will not submit to a "standard God". Some have trouble with a God of their own understanding even. If even one wet drunk is offended (who cares about anyone else?), then in my humble opinion, we have murdered that man or woman. When I came into this program, if someone came to me with religion, I would have run like heck. I could not fathom a God in that particular way. Attraction, not promotion, Notice I don't even bring up AA? __________________ Blessings, Jimmy

06-23-2008, 08:15 AM	#6 (permalink)
toad Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mountain grove, missouri Posts: 1,075	Hammer, nothing you wrote makes any sense to me. You are very good at walking around a point without getting close to it. Bill W. has nothing to do with this forum. This is not AA. You accused me of "pushing my personal ideas." In that post I said "share this with me" and shared only my personal experiences. Never once did I "push" anything. Where are you coming from when you say "push?" I ain't leaving yet! I will stand against anyone who is not the Administrator, or the Forum Moderator who trys to dictate to me what and how I post. You and Rarly are not in authority to tell me what to post. __________________ Tet Vet PGR member 2007 Road King Classic 96 C.I. Six-speed Vivid black God......... Let You........... be enough for me.

06-23-2008, 08:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
BillJ Casual Hero and Raconteur Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,123	Toad, You're right - this isn't an exclusively AA forum. However, it is a place where suffering alcoholics occasionally turn for help. As AA members, I feel we have a responsibility to those folks wherever we meet them - in AA, at the local motorcycle shop, through our families and friends, or on this forum. Pages 44-47 in the book Alcoholics Anonymous neatly sum up the issue for me. My concern about injecting religious doctrine into this forum is the risk that a newcomer might confuse those religious beliefs with the AA program itself, mistake AA for a "Christian (or other religious) teaching", and reject AA as a result. If you're going to talk about recovering through AA, and then include specific religious references, you risk sending a mixed message. Please note that there are forums here at SR intended for Christians in Recovery, which might serve your need for specifically Christian discussion. Also note that I, for one, am not suggesting you can't even *mention* the name of your Higher Power here - just that you tread softly lest you scare off someone you might help. I know this is a sensitive topic, and I hope what I've shared is received with the spirit in which it's offered - peace and reconciliation. I'd like to see us resolve this and get back to being the SR fellowship I know and love. I hate to see my brothers fighting amongst themselves. __________________ Bill J. from Austin Evo FXR (AKA "The Banshee") Rigid rat shovel (AKA "The Bitch") Ratted-out Evo FLT (AKA "The Bagger") The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom, and I'm trying to get there as fast as I can!

06-23-2008, 09:45 AM	#9 (permalink)
recoveringnky Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: The beautiful mountains of Kentucky Posts: 604	I hate to see you all fighting too! I love you guys!! Hugs, Kym __________________ Kym P. Keeping it Simple Life is too short for drama & petty things, so kiss slowly, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly.

06-22-2008, 10:33 PM	#2 (permalink)
Hurricane Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 266	Don't think it's just you. I believe there is nothing wrong with sharing your faith on this forum. It is not an AA or NA forum, and AA is not the only way for one to recover. As I have said before, I have benefited greatly from the sharing of your faith.

06-23-2008, 10:33 AM	#10 (permalink)
best Don't get undies in a bunch Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Shore MA Posts: 7,184	Toad I enjoy reading your posts and you touch on a subject that I battle with all the time.... When to share and when or where not to share. As far as any forum on SR goes... any member can share their own ES&H on any forum here, other then men in the women's forum or women in the men's forum. I see your shares as an ES&H not as a bible thumping and don't see anything wrong with it. My own ES&H from before becoming a Christian helps me better understand when and what I share (as I remember my own denial) but the life changes that have happened when I accepted Christ into my heart have me want to share all the more about Him. My first denial was ..self and alcohol. My last denial I got past was denial of Christ and once that denial was removed... well you know how our life changes with that. Never have I known such joy in all my life. This is not AA and if it was, I would say that what we share needs to follow AA rules. It is for that reason that I may never be seen sharing at a AA meeting. I won't or can't keep quiet about what the Lord has done for me. Respect of the beliefs of others is a two way street. People will defend their denial or they will defend their beliefs till the end of days and all should do so with respect of SR rules. I will continue to share my own ES&H and let others accept what they want to accept with the hopes that they can see my joy and know what the Lord has done in my life. __________________ * I asked God to spare me pain. God said "No", Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me. Recovery Related Acronym B. E. S. T. = Been Enjoying Sobriety Today?

06-23-2008, 10:49 AM	#11 (permalink)
best Don't get undies in a bunch Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Shore MA Posts: 7,184	Tolerance: Please respect the rights of others to hold beliefs and perspectives, which differ from yours. Our Sober Recovery Forum members are of many nationalities, ages, and cultures. Healthy, vigorous debate will further our goals, but only when guided by the tolerance that springs from mutual embrace of mission. Full Policies, Rules & Regulations... http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ting-tips.html (Policies, Rules & Posting Tips) __________________ * I asked God to spare me pain. God said "No", Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me. Recovery Related Acronym B. E. S. T. = Been Enjoying Sobriety Today?

06-23-2008, 12:05 PM	#13 (permalink)
sticker Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Saint Peter MN Posts: 140	thanks guys for bringing this topic up...since it is one of the reasons i dont spend much time in this forum...i am not a christian...i am not a member of A.A..I am a biker in recover and had hoped to find a home here but must admit all the bible and big book stuff gets hard for me to take. there are forums on SR for these things when i want to talk about my own personal beliefs i go to them..out of respect __________________ Untill in desperation..we sought help frome each other

06-23-2008, 01:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
toad Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mountain grove, missouri Posts: 1,075	I will continue to post my experience, strength and hope on this forum and use Scripture whenever I want. All who object will just have to accept it. I will not intentionally say anything that might be harmful to a newcomer. If the Forum Moderator or the Administrator address this issue and tell me that I cannot share my recovery and the influences in my recovery, then I will cease, and only then. I am a Christian biker in recovery and this is where I want to post.......thank you. __________________ Tet Vet PGR member 2007 Road King Classic 96 C.I. Six-speed Vivid black God......... Let You........... be enough for me.

06-23-2008, 02:05 PM	#16 (permalink)
toad Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mountain grove, missouri Posts: 1,075	Share this with me please How can a loving God harden some hearts and soften others? God does not change, God is the same today, yesterday, and forever, so why are some people affected one way and others another way? God doesn’t change, so the answer must be found in us. Finis Dake and his commentaries on the Bible have opened my eyes to the fact that God is, and is unchangeable. Many times in my prayer I try and get God to change something or maybe I try and get God to see something more my way. I am realizing that this form of prayer is like talking to the sun. Bill Wilson, one of the co-founders of AA said it over and over, “Thy will, not mine, be done.” For years on occasions I would attend churches, go to various AA meeting, group therapies, and other types of activities that could have had a beneficial affect on my life, and I would come away thinking, this is not going to work, they are asking too much of me, I can never submit to God this way, and on and on. As a result my heart became hardened to God and these various programs of recovery. God actually hardened my heart, that’ right, a loving God hardened my heart, this is because God did not change. Finis Dake uses the concept of wax and clay sitting out in the sun on a hot day. The wax will melt, and the clay will dry and become harder. It was the same sun that melted one and hardened the other. When I came to realize that God works the same way in my life, I knew that in order to be molded so as to be of service to God, I had to change the substance of my heart. I had to stop thinking only of myself, and start thinking of others. This changes ones heart, and allows God to soften and mold the person. God is doing for me what I could not do for myself........toad __________________ Tet Vet PGR member 2007 Road King Classic 96 C.I. Six-speed Vivid black God......... Let You........... be enough for me.

06-23-2008, 04:35 PM	#18 (permalink)
Hurricane Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 266	I'm in the middle of the road, but just as recovery groups have group conscience's, I would say this group has also done so. I may not always agree with a group's decision, but after speaking my peace, I'll let it be.