is God really needed in the 12 steps???? input wanted

[lionsstripe]

ARE THE 12 STEPS SPIRITUAL

ELIMINATING THE SPIRITUAL ONES



1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had
become unmanageable.

There's nothing spiritual about this admission. Any drunk can
truthfully make it. So we will keep this one--we admit we are in a mess.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us
to sanity.

Came to a belief in God--in spiritual things. If we do not accept the
spiritual side of the program then we must eliminate this Step.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of
God as we understood Him.

Here we make a decision to lead a spiritual life, a life surrendered to
the will of God--we must eliminate this Step too.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

A moral inventory--morality postulates a law--the moral law. Without
God and His Commandments we could not have a moral law. We take this
inventory in order that we might adjust ourselves to this moral law--which
again is to live a spiritual life. So Step Four is out.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact
nature of our wrongs.

There's God again, so that's out.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of
character.

God, that's out.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

We can't do it if there is no spiritual side--we can't use this step,
it's spiritual.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to
make amends to them all.

Justice and rights--again postulating the law of God, but there's no
spiritual side--no submission to God's will and law--no restitution--no
taking of the eighth step.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to
do so would injure them or others.

A corollary of step eight--emanating from obligations of justice--so we
can't use this one.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
promptly admitted it.

But only a truly spiritual man need pay attention to right and
wrong--to morality--to God's law--so we discard this step also, it's
spiritual.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious
contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His
will for us and the power to carry that out.

This Step is loaded with the very essence of spirituality--we could
never include it.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we
tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles
in all our affairs.

Spiritual! There could never be a twelve step if we deny there is a
spiritual side.

Now what have we left of the program after having thrown out al the steps
that are spiritual? We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our
lives had become unmanageable.

i so very much love this I post in in every recovery group i have ever been in plus print copies for my home group

[serenityqueen]

A God of My Understanding was a Must in order to move past the point of knowing I was powerless over alcohol and my life was unmanageable!

[BUTTERFLY-7]

Listen(( lionstripe)) if you can't for some reason come in terms with the concept of God is understood nobody is forcing you if you are not ready then listen read Step 3.
we decided to turn our will to God here comes what I'm trying to tell you "As you Understood Him"
when I came to recovery I also had a hard time even putting God in all this but as time gos by you star understanding the hall concept
much will be reveal just take it one day at a time, easy dos it.
Our High Power could be describe in many terms like the rooms of A/A N/A S.R. and the leaders God Speaks to people through people our group conscious It's every where just keep your eyes open and strap up for the ride.

[Rarly Harley]

Originally Posted by lionsstripe

ARE THE 12 STEPS SPIRITUAL

Robert: Here's a little story I picked up along the way.....

A sponsee goes to his sponsor, whining that he doesn't get the spiritual side of A.A. He continues whining that his boss is an idiot, his wife continues to be a bi*ch, the dog hates him and his truck don't run right. He questions whether his life is ever going to improve, now that he's been in A.A. for a whole 3 months and questions whether he needs the spiritual side of A.A. at all, because it isn't working for him.
The sponsor lets him finish his rant and calmly states, " you are absolutely right, there is no spiritual side to A.A." The sponsee picks up on that in a heartbeat and relied " I knew it, I knew it.... ". Then the sponsor hits him with the left hook and firmly states, " A.A. is a spiritual program period.... ". Nuff said....

I firmly believe that God gave all of us drunks & addicts a gift of unconditional love, when he plunked Ebby down in front of Bill and used Ebby to convey this life saving statement...." Why don't you choose your own conception of God...? ". That statement was the arch to freedom that I walked through in A.A. and without it, I would have died drunk, so my answer is an unequivocable yes.......

[lilbit]

Lion...keep being yer dandy self...beliefs and all...YOU have found a very powerful path that has lead you out of the wake of destruction and yer giving props to GOD. I get it...and I'm down with it...even if my GOD is a big black beautiful sista that rides a fat back Vmax down the highway of love....
We're all in this together....
STAY SOBER! Strength in numbers! Soldiers for SOBRIETY! The war continues...everyday...all day...ONE DAY AT A TIME!
LOVE YA!
The Bitz
P.S. Wish ya knew how to put up that kitten with the machine gun...THAT would be fun!

[recoveringnky]

I'm so glad that I became willing to trust in a power higher than myself! Without it, I wouldn't be the mom, wife, woman that I am today. I am thankful that we have a spiritual program, not a religious one!
Hugs,
Kym

[lilbit]

Ladies...it's what he believes...and that's a good thing. He's just shouting out his FAITH and if we all show a little TOLERANCE...THAT should be okay...just for today...all day...One Day At A Time.

[lilbit]

Kym...what do all the letters mean? The "ILYA"...and so on?
I'm out of touch there...just asking....see it allot.

[BillJ]

It means "I love you and there's not a damn thing you can do about it." Toad brought that to us after last year's meet-and-greet in Indiana, and we've been using it ever since.

[toad]

What about the 13th step..........does it fit in anywhere?

[lionsstripe]

YES I BELEVE IN GOD, i just thought this an intresting concept of the steps

[toad]

Originally Posted by lionsstripe

YES I BELEVE IN GOD, i just thought this an intresting concept of the steps

I never doubted your belief, and I think that most understood that. What you posted was very interesting indeed. It shows the presence of God in all the steps. Even in the first step. To admit that we are powerless, requires some humility and honesty, and for me this was God doing for me what I could not do for myself......

What about the 13th step. After 9 1/2 years clean and sober I've been thinking about working this one..................My sponsor had 19 years sober when he met this little red-head in Arizona, she had 1 year. He married her and they have been married for 30 years. He has 49 years, and still works a good program, she will have 30 years next month and works a good program.

Just joking about doing a 13th step...........unless........you know?

[recoveringnky]

Originally Posted by toad

.

Just joking about doing a 13th step...........unless........you know?

Toad, you kill me my brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love you much!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm laughing my butt off right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BUTTERFLY-7]

Originally Posted by lilbit

Ladies...it's what he believes...and that's a good thing. He's just shouting out his FAITH and if we all show a little TOLERANCE...THAT should be okay...just for today...all day...One Day At A Time.

I understand where you are coming from
lilbit But first thing is first "Tolerance is Way different
than staying Ignorant" to the true nature of It's Facts for his Question? He ask a Question? and we All are in Title
to share we laid it out to the table, and If it don't "Apply let it Fly" Simple solution for complicated People. Be Easy

[Jazzed_N_MD]

I think some of us got the wrong idea as to what Lion was saying. The point I got was ..."IF" you take all the spiritual "stuff" out of the steps, you get a drunk (or a dope fiend) admiting that he/she is a drunk (or a dope fiend). Oh yeah and thier life is a mess and out of control. There is no recovery, just an admittance. There might not even be any clean time.

So for me, there was a message that in order to recover from my hopeless situation, I needed to (and continue to) wrap my thinking around a spiritual concept.

[lionsstripe]

thank you jazzed you got the message peerfectly

[lilbit]

Lion...Love ya!
You is SOLID fo sho!

[Rarly Harley]

Originally Posted by lionsstripe

thank you jazzed you got the message peerfectly

Lion: I jumped pretty quick didn't I...? You may have gathered by now, that I'm hard-core A.A. I'm also an addict, but I choose to attend A.A. meetings only and I refer to my recovery as sobriety. I love the story I posted about the sponsee & sponsor, I've used it many times. I am re-posting the last part of my response, because it is my rock solid truth...

I firmly believe that God gave all of us drunks & addicts a gift of unconditional love, when he plunked Ebby down in front of Bill and used Ebby to convey this life saving statement...." Why don't you choose your own conception of God...? ". That statement was the arch to freedom that I walked through in A.A. and without it, I would have died drunk, so my answer is an unequivocable yes.......


Your post has given me an opportunity to take a look at my own stuff and try to practice a little more restraint in the future. I'm glad you are here Robert. Keep on postin'....

[lionsstripe]

i have also been called HARD CORE A.A. on many occasions, i do not play when it comes to this great program of recovery,