Religion in AA.

[Rarly Harley]

I feel very strongly about this subject Brothers & Sisters. I am an AA die-hard and I believe with all my heart that God led me to AA and AA led me to God.
When I entered my first AA meeting however, if you folks had of been thumping the bible, quoting scripture and telling me that I had to be saved, I probably would have kicked all the tables over, caused a mighty rucus, stormed out never to return and died drunk. I thank God for his love of us drunks, that he sent Ebby Thatcher to see Bill Wilson one Sunday morning. Bill was drinking gin in his kitchen when Ebby showed up sober. Bill asked Ebby what happened. Ebby said, " I got religion." Bill automatically thought to himself, " My gin supply will last longer than your preaching."
Now Brothers & Sisters, Ebby replied with God's words, when he said, " Bill, why don't you choose your own conception of God..?" Thus the term " Higher Power " was coined as a life saving term that all drunks could swallow and enable them to begin their spiritual journey. The term " Higher Power " enabled me to stay in AA, period. I firmly believe that God gave us drunks AA, so that all of us, whether athiests, agnostics, non-belivers, God haters, religion & church haters, all of us of every colour & stripe, could get through the wide portal of AA and begin their own individual spiritual journey with a Higher Power of their own choosing. That has certainly been the case for me and today I can freely talk about my daily connection with God, the greatest gift that you AA folks have given me.
In AA meetings however, I am very carefull to say "Higher Power" when I know there are newcomers in the room, so I don't scare them away to certain death, with talk of God. I am also very vocal when anyone else starts to speak in religious terms in an AA meeting, whether it be about the bible, church, or having to be saved by Jesus. I let them know in no uncertain terms that religion has no place in AA and their bible-thumping can actually kill people. I am ever vigilant to the fact that the newcomer is the most important person in any AA meeting and I feel it is my duty to protect them from over-zealous, however well-meaning they are, religion thumpers of various colours & hues. I thank God for AA and all His many blessings in my life and I will continue to step up to the plate to help others find their own path, of their own choosing.....

[best]

In the transmissions of our bikes...there are many gears that make it work.

Depending upon the need at the time...one gear does a better job then the next.
I am ever grateful that there are gears in AA just like you and I am just as grateful for the gears out of AA that carry the message of Jesus ... for there are some who won't go to AA a second time because they want to hear things from a God centered standpoint.
Our's is not the only way to get sober. I think it wise if all venture out beyond the 4 walls and see if we can enrich what we have with what others have to share.

[toad]

There was an article in the Grapevine a few months ago about having non-conference approved material on our tables. Some AA's think that only AA books, phamplets, and other approved reading should be on the table. That means no Hazelden 24 Hour books, no dictionary's, and no Grapevines because they are not conference approved. The Hazelden daily readings often quote Scripture, but many many AA's still use it. What the Grapevine said is that it is up to the group. The group conscience is the ultimate authority in the "group." Soooooooo I take that to mean that if a group conscience say that a Bible can be on the table, so be it. I have never seen a group through a group conscience put a Bible on the table, but I have seen individuals bring Bibles to meetings.

"Love and tolerance of others is our code.".........what does that mean?

I am not a religionist, the religionist killed Jesus.........toad

[Rarly Harley]

Originally Posted by toad

The group conscience is the ultimate authority in the "group." Soooooooo I take that to mean that if a group conscience say that a Bible can be on the table, so be it. I have never seen a group through a group conscience put a Bible on the table, but I have seen individuals bring Bibles to meetings. "Love and tolerance of others is our code.".........what does that mean? toad

Toad: If an AA group votes to include the bible, then according to the fourth tadition, they are affiliated with an outside enterprise and therefore no longer an AA group. I try to be loving and tolerant of others, but that doesn't include sitting idly by if other groups try to encorporate the bible into aa. That will kill people.

I love you and there ain't a darn thing you can do about it....

[The_Hammer]

A.A. didn't save me, but it kept me sober long enought for me to decide which way I wanted to go.

With that said, Religion and A.A., are oil and water. No, A.A. is not the only way to get or to stay sober, but it is the only way for about 100 million of us and our program says that; we ought not to involve ourselves with any outside sect or entity."

If someone had told me I couldn't stay sober or even get sober without Jesus; I would have walked out then and there and there would be no Hammer posting here today, for I would be dead. My tiny brain could not have accepted the idea of God as YOU understand Him; make sense? We in A.A., don't claim to be the only way to get sober-if you don't like it here, we encourage you to leave, because we love you and want you to be sober and happy and serene...A.A. is not a church in any way shape or form.

Yes, I believe A.A. to be God-breathed. So I think it is imperative to follow the program to the letter. Do what your sponsor tells ya to, to the letter. So I personally encourage those that I sponsor to select a HP of their understanding,. Then, as they grow in this program, if they want what I have spiritually, I share my HP with them when they are ready to accept it. Only then, no matter how I feel about it (I am ordained).

[toad]

Originally Posted by Rarly Harley

Toad: If an AA group votes to include the bible, then according to the fourth tadition, they are affiliated with an outside enterprise and therefore no longer an AA group. I try to be loving and tolerant of others, but that doesn't include sitting idly by if other groups try to encorporate the bible into aa. That will kill people.

I love you and there ain't a darn thing you can do about it....

Having a Bible on the table doesn't affiliate AA with Christianity anymore than having a dictionary affiliates AA with Webster and the publishing company that produced the dictionary. What about the Hazelden 24 Hr. book, would that not affiliate us with Hazelden? Many meetings are held in churches and pay rent money to that church, is this an affiliation? What about the serenity prayer? It is a Christian prayer written by a minister who lived close to Saint Louis. When millions of AA's say this prayer is this an affiliation to Christianity? How about the thousands of groups that close with the Lord's prayer taken directly from the Bible, is this also considered an affiliation? AA is not affilicated with any religion because we are not "hooked up" (working together) with any religion.

I am a Christian and in meetings I never talk about salvation, the cross, the Holy Ghost, spiritual healings, being delivered from alcohol, and only mention my Higher Power as God. It really burns me up when someone gets on a religious rant about Jesus Christ and church in meetings. You know why? Church never got me sober! AA got me sober and I owe my life to the program and fellowship. I choose to attend certain meeting and some I choose not to attend. If a group does not support with their funds.....district, area, and GSO, I choose not to attend. I am all about AA, I love AA.

I think it is wonderful how AA has allowed to groups to choose their own format and meeting arrangements. It does not come down from New York what we should do as long as we follow the traditions and are not legally affiliated with anything else. I personally would not attend a meeting that read from the Bible, and I will not attend a meeting that does not read How It Works and the Traditions. I need to hear How It Works everytime I attend a meeting.

I attend church faithfully and am involved in several ministries. I am called upon on occasion to preach. I have conducted Bible studies at our local nursing home. I go to the local Christian School and play music and give a devotional in their chapel services. I play in a gospel group that plays several times a month at different retirement homes. I play music in a contempary Christian (rock) group that ministers to the youth in our community at various events. The reason I am telling you this is not to toot my own horn, but to show you how I seperate my AA and Church. I need to, they don't care much for me in church when I'm wasted.

We can both huff and puff about what some people do in their meetings and groups, and it does no good. The truth is that if a group doesn't follow the traditions, they won't last long and won't be a threat anyway. I have seen so many Christian recovery groups start up here in the Bible belt, and they just seem to fade away after a year or so. AA ain't going no where.......God put it here with a specific purpose, to help the suffering alcoholic...........

I love you too Rarly, and there ain't a damn thing anybody can do about it.......toad

[Rarly Harley]

Originally Posted by toad

It really burns me up when someone gets on a religious rant about Jesus Christ and church in meetings. You know why? Church never got me sober! AA got me sober and I owe my life to the program and fellowship. I am all about AA, I love AA.

I personally would not attend a meeting that read from the Bible, and I will not attend a meeting that does not read How It Works and the Traditions. I need to hear How It Works everytime I attend a meeting.

I love you too Rarly, and there ain't a damn thing anybody can do about it.......toad

Love ya right back and ditto to the above. Personally, you couldn't pry the 24 hour book out of my cold dead fingers. I read it every morning. I pouted when AA voted it out and replaced it with the Daily Reflections, but I understood how it was affecting some members with its reference to scripture. I tried the Daily Reflections, but for me, it ain't near as good as the 24 Book. We sell the Daily Reflections at our group, but not the 24 hour.
There has been much argument about the Serenity Prayer's origin. It has however, been adopted by AA and has brought relief to millions. It is hopefully in AA to stay.
The Lord's Prayer is way more affiliated with Christian teachings than the Serenity Prayer and I have seen AA members bow out of the meeting prior to it being said. I believe that the group concience of AA through God's guidance, will resolve this issue as well.
I also love this forum and everyone here, but I firmly believe that references to the bible, Jesus & Christianity don't belong in this forum the same as they don't belong in AA. There is a Christians in Recovery forum for that....

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Rarly Harley

I also love this forum and everyone here, but I firmly believe that references to the bible, Jesus & Christianity don't belong in this forum the same as they don't belong in AA. There is a Christians in Recovery forum for that....

Agreed. Let's start another thread on those topics in the Christianity Forum please.

[toad]

Originally Posted by Doug

Agreed. Let's start another thread on those topics in the Christianity Forum please.

I ain't going nowhere.........fire me if you can.........I am not ashamed of being a Christian..........toad

[toad]

Hey guys, this ain't an AA forum.........it's a recovery forum........If you don't like hearing about Jesus Christ here then you can just kiss my ass.........I will maybe start preaching here in bikers in recovery........you gonna stop all the Christian bikers in recovery?????

you're out of line..............kiss my toad ass

[Hurricane]

This is a topic that I have seen to many get heated at meetings.
You guys have brought up some very interesting points and have enlightened me a lot
on the subject.

I thank you for for this thread and handling such a sensitive topic with class and respect for one another beliefs.

[greeneyez87]

First I just want to say that each and everyone of you shared some real good stuff. I was really impressed with the way it was going. Ive done my share of service work and sat at many of those meetings, wondering where in the hell where some of these peoples programs were at!
I agree with everyones point of view on this subject. AND, I think it was a very good choice of topic as well. EVERYONE has a right to their feelings. And I dont mean to be disrespectful Doug, but asking that you take this very good discussion to another board saddens me. And in the same breath, we need to remember that we alcoholics are sensitive. Especially about things that mean so much to us. What I read here was some very strong feelings and beliefs, they may have had different views, BUT it works for those individuals.
I think all of us have struggled with the "Higher Power" concept in one form or another as we came through this door. What amazes me is hearing people share about that, and how they found their peace with it.
I think the KEY that truely gave me the willingness to live this program one day at a time, was knowing that I was not the only one that felt this way, or I was not the only one who struggled with that. That there were many that understood those feelings and struggles. So, for me, I need to hear it all. And it helps that I can do that w/o judgement, and nothing but patience love and tolerance.
I want to thank you Rarly, Toad, and Hammer for a beautiful share of those feelings and beliefs!

[Rarly Harley]

Originally Posted by Hurricane

I thank you for for this thread and handling such a sensitive topic with class and respect for one another beliefs.

We most certainly do love and respect each other Hurricane, thanks for the gentle reminder. Yes it is a most sensitive topic, but one that must be resolved through our collective conscience, with our respective Higher Powers as our guide....

[toad]

Okay here it goes..................I'm Sorry (man that hurts my ego). Got to do this before I go to sleep tonight to keep from getting drunk tomorrow. I am sorry for being vulgar and telling Doug and Rarly to kiss my ass. Of course when my girfriend tells me to kiss her ass I think it's sexy.........maybe you took it differently? Anyway, please forgive me, I will try to conduct myself properly in the future.......toad

"God is doing for me what I could not do for myself."

[The_Hammer]

Originally Posted by Doug

Agreed. Let's start another thread on those topics in the Christianity Forum please.

Again-Right on.

[The_Hammer]

Originally Posted by greeneyez87

First I just want to say that each and everyone of you shared some real good stuff. I was really impressed with the way it was going. Ive done my share of service work and sat at many of those meetings, wondering where in the hell where some of these peoples programs were at!
I agree with everyones point of view on this subject. AND, I think it was a very good choice of topic as well. EVERYONE has a right to their feelings. And I dont mean to be disrespectful Doug, but asking that you take this very good discussion to another board saddens me. And in the same breath, we need to remember that we alcoholics are sensitive. Especially about things that mean so much to us. What I read here was some very strong feelings and beliefs, they may have had different views, BUT it works for those individuals.
I think all of us have struggled with the "Higher Power" concept in one form or another as we came through this door. What amazes me is hearing people share about that, and how they found their peace with it.
I think the KEY that truely gave me the willingness to live this program one day at a time, was knowing that I was not the only one that felt this way, or I was not the only one who struggled with that. That there were many that understood those feelings and struggles. So, for me, I need to hear it all. And it helps that I can do that w/o judgement, and nothing but patience love and tolerance.
I want to thank you Rarly, Toad, and Hammer for a beautiful share of those feelings and beliefs!

Nah, green, doug nailed; "To everything there is a season and a purpose under the heavens." This aint here.

[Rarly Harley]

Originally Posted by toad

Okay here it goes..................I'm Sorry (man that hurts my ego). Got to do this before I go to sleep tonight to keep from getting drunk tomorrow. I am sorry for being vulgar and telling Doug and Rarly to kiss my ass. Of course when my girfriend tells me to kiss her ass I think it's sexy.........maybe you took it differently? Anyway, please forgive me, I will try to conduct myself properly in the future.......toad

"God is doing for me what I could not do for myself."

Toad: Our bond is too great to be frayed by a little controversy. I love you and respect your views....My view on this topic is out there now, with my heart laid open for all to see. God will now decide if we need to keep Christianity out of this forum. He always knows best. I have reached the God-Line on this one Bro. I'm done.....

[Jazzed_N_AZ]

Originally Posted by toad

Hey guys, this ain't an AA forum.........it's a recovery forum........If you don't like hearing about Jesus Christ here then you can just kiss my ass.........I will maybe start preaching here in bikers in recovery........you gonna stop all the Christian bikers in recovery?????

you're out of line..............kiss my toad ass

K.M.A. might be a bit harsh between friends. But my BEST friend has said much, much worse(*&%#!!!) and still loves me today, as I do him.
Religion, or the religious path one takes is VERY personal. Before AA/NA, I was not a person, (understand?).

In my opinion, there is only One God. He sent all the Words, inspired all the writings and motivated all the prophets. One word He sent actually walked and talked. But alas, we killed him. We still try and kill him to this day, (we=mankind). If we stepped back and stopped trying to convince others which way is the right way and just walked in our own faith, (doing the next right thing) maybe we wouldn't be trying so hard to kill someone elses religion.
FYI, my religious path teaches me that Abraham was the father of all religion and that Mohammad was the last prophet and that Jesus was the Word of God encarnate (not actually God Himself). I believe in mono-theism. This is personal for me and "maybe " somebody else. It's not for me to decide what works for another but it is my responsibility to "answer when asked", what works for me, (ESH).
One God, many men or one man, many gods?

In the local barber shop, you can say anything. I'll start with...
Love this place or not, all are welcome.