"dry drunk" ???????????

[emilyajb]

Can somebody define the meaning "dry drunk" please
I am aware that this term can aslo apply to a substance misuser.

Thank-you

Emily

[tantricblaze]

Hi Emily,

"Dry drunk" is an imaginary condition in which a person stops using alcohol, but does not lead the spiritual life as outlined in the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The person supposedly still exhibits all of the characteristics of a drunk, but without actually drinking.

Personally, I find the term offensive, especially since there is no medical or psychological evidence with which to back this up.

Plenty of folks quit drinking without any sort of program, and they go on to lead better lives, more connected to their families, and spiritual communities. But since these folks are not in "recovery," they would be considered merely "dry," but not "sober."

I would caution strongly against affiliating yourself with any group or therapist who supports this theory. You may also want to google "dry drunk imaginary" and see what comes up.

--Scott

[CarolD]

See if this helps...From the Minnesota Recovery Site

Dry Drunk Syndrome

Sobriety will necessarily have its ups and downs, its good times and its bad times, if only because we live in a world which we are inseparably joined. One doesn't always sustain sobriety at the same level. There are fluctuations, shocks and setbacks which, when addressed within the context of the A.A. program, so not in themselves imperil the totality of one's sobriety. The Dry Drunk Syndrome is a term that should not be used as a catch-all when one has a bad day or a bump in life throws us for a while. Those are ups and downs that everyone experiences and shouldn't be labeled to be anything more than what they truly are. The Dry Drunk is a condition far more serious than the highs and lows of our day-to-day existence. The phrase "dry drunk" has two significant words for the alcoholic. "Dry" refers to the abstinence from drinking, whereas "drunk" signifies a deeply pathological condition resulting from the use of alcohol in the past. Taken together these words suggest intoxication without alcohol. Since intoxication comes from the Greek word for poison, "dry drunk" implies a state of mind and a mode of behavior that are poisonous to the alcoholic's well being.

OBVIOUS TRAITS Persons experiencing a full-blown DRY DRUNK are, for that period, removed from the world of sobriety; they fail, for whatever reason, to accept the necessary conditions for sober living. Their mental and emotional homes are chaotic, their approach to everyday living is unrealistic, and their behavior, both verbal and physical, is unacceptable.

This lack of sober realism manifests itself in many ways.

1. Grandiosity, put very simply, is an exaggeration of one's own importance. This can be demonstrated either in terms of one's strengths or weaknesses. In either case it is blatantly self- seeking or self-serving, putting oneself at the center of attention, from the "big me" who has ask the answers to the "poor me" whose cup of self-pity runneth over and wants all of our attention.

2. Judgmentalism is mutually related to grandiosity. It means that the alcoholic is prone to make value judgments - strikingly inappropriate evaluations - usually in terms of "goodness" or "badness".

3. Intolerance leaves no room for delaying the gratification of personal desires. This is accomplished by gross confusion of priorities with the result that a mere whim or passing fancy is mistakenly given more importance than genuine personal needs.

4. Impulsivity is the result of intolerance or the lack of ability to delay gratification of personal desires. Impulsivity describes behavior which is heedless of the ultimate consequence for self or others.

5. Indecisiveness is related to impulsitivity in the sense that while the latter takes no realistic account of the consequences of the actions, the former precludes effective action altogether. Indecisiveness stems from an unrealistic exaggeration of the negative possibilities of the action ; so one wavers between two or more possible courses of action, more times than not- nothing gets done.

These conditions, grandiosity, judgmentalism, intolerance ,impulsivity, and indecisiveness taken separately or together can lead to the following: a) Mood swings, which are unrelated to the circumstances to which one tries to link them. Alcoholics zero in on what they want others to think is the cause of the mood swing, when it isn't that at all. More often than not it is something much deeper than the reason given. Inversely it can also be something totally insignificant with no substance at all (e.g. the sugar is too sweet or the donut is too round). Any excuse will do. b) Unable to demonstrate emotions freely, naturally and without constraint. No emotional spontaneity, no genuine spark. c) Introspection. A very healthy thing to do is difficult if not impossible for the "dry drunk". It means to look inward to one's examining each thought and desire, which is linked directly to one's attitude. d) Detachment. Become aloof, display indifference, don't care one way or the other, no special likes or dislikes, they withdraw. e) Self-absorption- with a tendency to call attention to whatever they have attained. Narcissism which is quite simply self-love. They become pompous asses. f) The inability to appreciate or enjoy themselves - nothing satisfies. g) Evidence of disorganization, is easily distracted, complains of boredom, and nothing seems to fit. h) A nostalgia sets in, a kind of wistful yearning for something of the past, such as freedom from care associated (falsely) with drinking, bars, drinking associates, and friends; the music, blue lights, and tinkle of the ice cubes in a glass in the neighborhood saloon. i) There can be a kind of romanticism, which includes unrealistic valuations of lifestyles and character traits which can be and usually are objectively dangerous to one's sobriety. j) Escapism. Fantasizing, daydreaming, and wishful thinking are very much in evidence in the dry drunk syndrome as the individual slips farther and farther from reality.

Since the abnormality of the alcoholic's attitudes and behavior during the drinking career is generally recognized, the persistence or these character traits after stopping drinking (or the reappearance after an interlude of sobriety) is equally abnormal.

The term "dry drunk" therefore denotes the absences of favorable change in the attitudes and behavior of the alcoholic who is not drinking, or the reversion of these by the alcoholic who has experienced a period of successful sobriety. From these conditions, it is to be inferred that the alcoholic is experiencing discomfort in life.

The self-destructive attitudes and behavior of the dry drunk alcoholic are different in degree but not in kind. The alcoholic, when drinking, has learned to rely on a deeply inadequate, radically immature approach to solving life's problems. And this is exactly what one sees in the dry drunk.

ANALYSIS OF DRY DRUNK BEHAVIOR The alcoholic who rationalizes their own irresponsible behavior are also likely to find fault in the attitudes and behavior of others. Although not denying their own shortcomings, they attempt to escape notice by cataloging in great detail the transgressions of others.

The classic maneuver of the dry drunk is over-reaction. The alcoholic may attach a seemingly disproportionate intensity of feeling to an ordinary insignificant event or mishap.

Some alcoholics who experience the dry drunk seem to know all the answers, are seldom at a loss for words when it comes to self-diagnosis. Their knowledge is quite impressive, their apparent insight, as opposed to genuine insight, is convincing.

CORRECTIVE MEASURES: Those undergoing a dry drunk lead impoverished lives. They experience severe limitations to grow,, to mature, and benefit from the possibilities that life offers. They lack the freshness and spontaneity that genuinely sober alcoholics manifest. Their life is a closed system, attitudes and behaviors are stereotyped, repetitive, and consequently predictable.

Alcoholics learn early that humility and a power greater than them- selves are the bedrock for a genuine and productive sobriety. An unusual measure of self-discipline must accompany the ego deflation process. Needed is self-discipline in honesty, patience and responsibility towards the recovery process [and acceptance of their disease]. [To improve long term goals of sobriety be aware of mental stressors, get more involved in the recovery program, get active in the 12 steps, get and use a sponsor, talk things out.] Hopefully. they will begin to appreciate the ironic folly of those alcoholics who think life has suddenly become manageable again; whose sanity is beyond question; who see no need of turning their lives over to a power greater then them- selves; who find personal inventories unnecessary since they are seldom in the wrong and are no longer subject to the embarrassing need of repairing the wrongs they have done.

When dry drunk alcoholics awaken to this irony that they, still unmanageable, still powerless, are the ones who have made this remarkable "recovery," they may feel sufficiently mortified to want to change.

[2dayzmuse]

I've seen some pretty bad behavior exuded by sober alcoholics. Call it what you want, but it is most definitely not imaginary. It is very real, and very unpleasant. I don't need any medical or psychological evidence to convince me of that. Spending time around certain people and witnessing their behavior has make a believer out of me that something is out of alignment. Maybe the term is offensive, but I have found the behavior just as offensive. What can I do about it? Nothing. I can only further work on myself and my own spiritual conditioning.

[historyteach]

Hi, Emily;
And welcome to SR!

Mark will be here to answer your concerns.

Be well...

Shalom!

[tantricblaze]

I knew someone would come along with a long-winded description of the "syndrome."

But common sense tells me that some people were a**holes before they started drinking, and no big surprise, they were a**sholes after too.



Whether or not they quit drinking is beside the point.

Just like other people who never had drinking problems in the first place, it is up to the individual whether they wish to become a better person for the sake of themselves and others. Why complicate matters? The only time I've heard the term actually used is to make a slur toward someone. And most of the time it was in public in an AA meeting.

I felt horrible about not speaking up to defend the person, but by saying something from now on, I'm perhaps influencing a change in use of this term.

--Scott

[historyteach]

Hi, Scott;
As you can see, this is the Meet the Experts forum. Emily asked for Mark's opinion here, as he is a liscensed professional. It would probably be best, now to allow Mark to answer her concerns.
You've made your point. I just don't want to see an arguement on this forum...This one, and Guy's, belong to the experts...and we are very grateful to have them donate their services to SR for the benefit of all...

Shalom!

[2dayzmuse]

Oh, I'm so sorry, you're right. I didn't see where I was going before I barged right in. Oops. I apologize Mark and Emily.

[CarolD]

Yes I too apologize for posting too quickly.
I found it in the SR Link section.

Sorry Mark for jumping in.

[MarkSichelCSW]

No apologies necessary on any one's part and everyone is welcome to share their opinion. There is a good article on the about.com alcoholism site written by Buddy T explaining dry drunk. http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/info/a/aa081397.htm

I have worked with recovering alcoholics for 25 years and have often seen behavior that I would call and have called dry drunk.

A Professor of Social work, Katherine Van Wormer, writes about dry drunks:

" Dry drunk is a slang term used by members and supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous and substance abuse counselors to describe the recovering alcoholic who is no longer drinking, one who is dry, but whose thinking is clouded. Such an individual is said to be dry but not truly sober. Such an individual tends to go to extremes."

[historyteach]

Thank you, Mark;
I read the article and found it helpful. The grieving process is involved in so much more than simply a death, I'm discovering. I can say for sure that it was involved with my smoke cessation!
(Now at Five months, one week, one day, 12 hours, 11 minutes and 33 seconds smoke free days, by the way! That's 6380 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,754.13. Life saved: 3 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 40 minutes. Just had to brag a bit, ok? )

And, it's interesting that finding new behaviors is the key too. I had to do just that with my quit! And I'm learning so much more about addiction with my quit than I learned from all the reading I've done in the last 11 years of my son's addiction as a result.

Doing the next right thing, choice after choice. That's really what it's all about, no?

Once more, thanks for all you do, here, Mark!

Shalom!

[The_Hammer]

a dry drunk is a very real syndrome that outlines behaviors common to individuals that wish to (yes, it is a conscious decision) engage in behaviors that were commonplace in us while we were yet drunk. It has nothing to do with whether or not you choose to engage yourself with a 12 step program, nor does it imply that you were or were not belligerent prior to sobriety.

Thanks Mark, for the information and your time.

[tantricblaze]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, Hammer. Thanks for sharing yours. But I still disagree.

--Scott

[Five]

I would also avoid using this phrase. The march into Un Reason is not very pleasent. Take it from someone who walked that path.

When it comes to nasty, vindictive statements like 'dry drunk' - try to percieve the entire spectrum of addiction, instead of one self selected group -that being 'AA'.

[Five]

never mind

[BSPGirl]

I find the term 'dry drunk' absolute nonsense. That was my meaningful reply, tired of explaining the same thing over and over to ppl who just don't change their opinions anyway. (which is fine by me )

Marte

[Autumn]

No one calls anyone that around here; it's antiquated, offensive, and in this day and age of enlightenment, inappropriate.

So what if I still ride the Short Bus?



(j/k).....

kinda.

[Kahlia]

Originally Posted by tantricblaze

Hi Emily,

"Dry drunk" is an imaginary condition in which a person stops using alcohol, but does not lead the spiritual life as outlined in the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The person supposedly still exhibits all of the characteristics of a drunk, but without actually drinking.

Personally, I find the term offensive, especially since there is no medical or psychological evidence with which to back this up.

Plenty of folks quit drinking without any sort of program, and they go on to lead better lives, more connected to their families, and spiritual communities. But since these folks are not in "recovery," they would be considered merely "dry," but not "sober."

I would caution strongly against affiliating yourself with any group or therapist who supports this theory. You may also want to google "dry drunk imaginary" and see what comes up.

--Scott

I rememeber as a child my father drinking very "hard" booze and then maybe for a month he would NOT drink HOWEVER he would ...
1. NOT go to work
2. Be totally unmotivated
3. Isolate himself as FAR as he POSSIBLY could INTHE HOUSE

I could go on and ON but you do not believe in the DRY DRUNK theory and I am NOT going to try and change your mind, I just know that my Father was on a VERY DRY DRUNK during the periods that he was not activilly drinking....it is a shame that you were not at my house because I could argue that theory to death!!! You may have never came across a situation or a VERY dysfunctional family, LIKE mine....I am just saying that I truly believe it does exist........PEACE.......kahlia

[felicity]

In my opinion, you can tell who's going to be a dry drunk before they even touch a drop of alcohol.

These people have severe personality problems that are precipitated by alcohol abuse ... they start out pompous asses, and just get even more so, even when the alcohol is taken away.

I don't think someone can "become" a dry drunk ... they always were one, straight from the womb.

[BigSis]

Really?

I believe there is a condition or syndrome or something that looks much like what I know as "dry drunk". The way Mr. Big and I have lived since giving up alcohol is much like what I've heard described.

I also believe I was alcoholic before I ever took my first drink.

But I never thought about being "dry drunk" .... straight from the womb. I suppose it is possible.

I don't belive a dry drunk is just a pompous ass... from birth. That sounds a lot like an opinion of a particular dry drunk... not all of us, as a group. But then, I've not met all of them... yet.

[equus]

As Mark said - it's a slang term. Like all slang terms using it is a person's choice, it wouldn't be one I would use and it isn't any kind of diagnosis.

[Grasshopper]

Personal opinion...smile...
There are many mental illness out there.Not everyone with mental issues are in the hospitals.Even sober alcoholics can be prone to it.,as well as those who never have had a drink.Calling folks, dry drunk to me,is very short-sighted and its a judgement based on one,s,own, perception,and where that person,themselves is,{not the person they are calling dry-drunk] coming from..In our Big book of alcoholic anonymous,you will not see this word dry-drunk.But some members embrace this word to try to explain another.I often wonder how many folks have been hurt by others using this term on them.When the reality is that they have some form of mental illness,that had nothing to do with their being called names by others..Drinking is only a symbol...
A person from progam was called a dry-drunk.Found out later he had a brain tumor,that was effecting ,his,thoughts long before he was told by his Dr,about the tumor...Something to think on.

[Ghost Dog]

I'm inclined to agree with some of you on this. I think the controversy surrounding the term entirely boils down to semantics, as although the conditions outlining "dry drunk syndrome" are very real and persistent in many sober alcoholics (me being one of them ), the symptoms usually outlined are very broad and could be applied to all manner of mental health conditions, personality defects, and other issues that could fit many a nonalcoholic/non-addict's description. Hence, the term can be pretty misleading. A "dry" alcoholic may be dealing with a dual diagnosis not directly related to alcoholism, such as an affective disorder, but will be called "dry drunk" by someone and therefore assume they must not be running a good enough program, even if they're going by the Big Book. Truth is, they may need professional psychiatric help outside the scope of AA (which has and always should be limited to focus on recovery from alcoholism). It may also sound derogatory to some, esp. when some of these oldtimers throw it around like they're casting bolts of lightning from their mountain of sobriety. (I hate to sound critical but man, it can hurt some people!) Yeah, unprofessionals saying you're problem is dry drunkeness when you actually had a brain tumor really gets to me, but what can ya do?

I think the term should be thrown out altogether. The things we deal with are too serious to allow any catch-all diagnoses to exist. Given, dry drunk is often truly the direct result of not working a good recovery program, but considering that there's simply no objective definition of the "syndrome" other than a bunch of things that suck when you're brain doesn't work right and you're not blotting it out with liquor, you could take "dry drunk" and swap it with virtually anything in half the DSM-IV and it'd be the same thing.

The psychiatric field threw out the term "neurosis" years back because it could be applied to pretty much every kind of non-psychotic mental illness known to man. "Dry drunk" is essentially the same thing.