Authenticity V
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,042
Hi Rob -- I lost track of you for a while today -- I was subscribed to your last thread & didn't notice it had closed. I wondered off-and-on all day why no one was posting. 
I'm having some much needed quiet. No panicking colleagues or people wanting appointments until Monday. I get to mess around with a new (to me) analytic package or two. Maybe buy some clothes for the kid's wedding, if I can stand to face shopping, which I may not be able to. In short, life goes on no matter how I feel about it. Change in and of itself brings a kind of respite from whatever was bothering me yesterday.
I'm having some much needed quiet. No panicking colleagues or people wanting appointments until Monday. I get to mess around with a new (to me) analytic package or two. Maybe buy some clothes for the kid's wedding, if I can stand to face shopping, which I may not be able to. In short, life goes on no matter how I feel about it. Change in and of itself brings a kind of respite from whatever was bothering me yesterday.
Woe is Moo.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,746
I super sad and angry today for nonsensical reasons that does not need hugs and in fact sympathy hugs may make condition worse and so I has nothing to contribute.
But, I not sure if ever reveal before that I fully 50% Canadian. Yes. That right. Robby and I is brotha's of the Great White Motha. ...eh.
But, I not sure if ever reveal before that I fully 50% Canadian. Yes. That right. Robby and I is brotha's of the Great White Motha. ...eh.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Hi EndGame.
I can well understand Mary Ann's keeping silent. I initially kept the worst from my parents, brothers, and sister. And later on I let my brothers know, and the next week my parents, sister, and older brother simply couldn't process the finality of my life. For myself, neither I nor Melissa could join in with their dark dismay and fears for the future. I'm just not into their need for suffering and despair. As it is now only my younger brother speaks with me with some ease and we do so without pretense of the obvious. So yeah, I understand the initial reservations of your sister. I also understand EndGame you could have "handled" such an original grim prognosis, and so could have shared the burden with your sister. I'm so glad to hear you didn't push her to have "the" conversation with you about her waiting to share the early prognosis. You're a compassionate soul, my friend, and I say this because I myself have often felt your kindness given to Melissa and I, and others here on SR. You're a remarkable man, EndGame.
Yup. Well said. Rigorous honesty creates amazing opportunities to eschew lying. I can't imagine my being sober today without honesty being deeply entrenched in my psyche. I agree relapsing offers nothing in self discovery that couldn't have also been revealed with a rigorous self-examination. It seems, to me anyways, all too often those who relapse make use of honesty not to eradicate what is driving them to drink, but rather they use their blunted sense of honesty as a kind of selfishly biased balance of their desires, fears, and confusions to somehow decide after much considerations they "in all honestly" want that drink. For me, this is a tragic misunderstanding of the real power of honesty. I know this from experience. Just because I haven't relapsed in 33 years doesn't mean I've forgotten those prior six years I relapsed countless times. I'll never forget. And I'll never drink again.
Beautiful. Just beautifully shared. Thanks for that EndGame. I've now kindled his book "The Road Less Travelled: ..." I'll enjoy this book to no end I'm sure.
I've just completed "Being Mortal" by Atul Gawande. His book speaks to the limits of medicine with respect to dying and aging. Mr. Gawande is himself a physician, as is his father and mother. His father eventually dies from cancer. This book has given me additional opportunities to more fully embrace and appreciate my own understandings of human mortality and quality of life responsibilities.
Thank you EndGame. I'm very appreciative of how these threads ease my own human burdens. I'm awesomely proud they have become a kind of lighthouse offering a surety for those of us who seek good shelter from the often unspeakable unresolved storms of life. 
I can well understand Mary Ann's keeping silent. I initially kept the worst from my parents, brothers, and sister. And later on I let my brothers know, and the next week my parents, sister, and older brother simply couldn't process the finality of my life. For myself, neither I nor Melissa could join in with their dark dismay and fears for the future. I'm just not into their need for suffering and despair. As it is now only my younger brother speaks with me with some ease and we do so without pretense of the obvious. So yeah, I understand the initial reservations of your sister. I also understand EndGame you could have "handled" such an original grim prognosis, and so could have shared the burden with your sister. I'm so glad to hear you didn't push her to have "the" conversation with you about her waiting to share the early prognosis. You're a compassionate soul, my friend, and I say this because I myself have often felt your kindness given to Melissa and I, and others here on SR. You're a remarkable man, EndGame.
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC 
The soap box portion of my post is that, a situation like the one I've described is precisely why we need a plan to both achieve and then protect our sobriety. I mentally give something of a "pass" (although I'm not completely certain what that means) to people who've relapsed following a major triggering event, usually following the death of a loved one. But this is never truly a "pass" in the sense that the person gains absolutely no benefit from having relapsed. It's only another occasion to drink. I've known people who've relapsed several times within the same year because their grandmother died every six-to-eight weeks or so. Or who've had a distant relative who's recently passed away, and by virtue of their death, had suddenly become the most important person in that person's life, even though they don't know his or her name. Or someone they once met several years ago for a total of five seconds who, again, by virtue of dying, became that person's best friend in life, and was therefore another occasion to drink. Dishonesty -- lying -- is always the ugly underbelly of addictions.
Yup. Well said. Rigorous honesty creates amazing opportunities to eschew lying. I can't imagine my being sober today without honesty being deeply entrenched in my psyche. I agree relapsing offers nothing in self discovery that couldn't have also been revealed with a rigorous self-examination. It seems, to me anyways, all too often those who relapse make use of honesty not to eradicate what is driving them to drink, but rather they use their blunted sense of honesty as a kind of selfishly biased balance of their desires, fears, and confusions to somehow decide after much considerations they "in all honestly" want that drink. For me, this is a tragic misunderstanding of the real power of honesty. I know this from experience. Just because I haven't relapsed in 33 years doesn't mean I've forgotten those prior six years I relapsed countless times. I'll never forget. And I'll never drink again.
Originally Posted by EndGame
"Life is difficult. This is a great truth, one of the greatest truths. It is a great truth because once we truly see this truth, we transcend it. Once we truly know that life is difficult-once we truly understand and accept it-then life is no longer difficult. Because once it is accepted, the fact that life is difficult no longer matters."
This is the now-famous opening sentence in M. Scott Peck’s The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values, and Spiritual Growth.
I like the book for what it is and for the message it carries, and not because it’s a great or classic work in psychology or psychiatry. It is not. But Dr. Peck’s "great truth" has slowly and methodically turned from what it is, an immutable reality of the human condition, into an enemy of the people, a reality that must be eradicated in order for us to live a happy life. Any sentiment around the notion that life is not or, worse, should not be difficult, is a denial of being, a renunciation of, a turning away from, if you will, life itself: "Life shouldn’t be so hard." "Why is my life so hard?" "Why is it that everyone else has it so much easier than I do?" It’s Eric Fromm’s Escape from Freedom and, by definition, a repudiation of our responsibility as conscious beings to make the most of what we have. An enactment of Camus’ assertion that ?Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is." It is a crime against Existence and an insult to our basic humanity to make it our goal to avoid suffering throughout life at the cost of living a meaningful life. In terms of living life, there is no easy way out.
My point is, drunk or sober, bad things are always going to happen in life. If our sobriety, our basic humanity, is contingent upon things going well, then we're pretty placing ourselves at the mercy of just about everything we cannot control. Which is substantial. Get a plan, stick with it, and stop looking for reasons (rationalizations) to drink. Life is filled with unwanted circumstances, loss, abuse, neglect, heartache, pain, and suffering, unless you can find a way to avoid all of it. (Locking yourself in your room is only creating your own despair; a type of extended suicide, like having surgery without anesthesia. Death by a thousand cuts, or by being buried alive.) All these unwanted and challenging life events are, at minimum, instructive: they reveal character rather than build it.
The one thing that every failed attempt at getting sober, at living a life with purpose, have in common is the word 'can't'. Or its variation, 'won't'. When we do this, and whether we like it or know it or not, we are thus defining ourselves by our limitations, labeling ourselves as incapable, as disabled, as much as so many people decry the use of labels, whether our limitations are physical or emotional. We label ourselves by what we do, and by what we don't or won't do. We jettison our responsibility to make something of ourselves, of our lives, and therefore surrender our freedom.
This is the now-famous opening sentence in M. Scott Peck’s The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values, and Spiritual Growth.
I like the book for what it is and for the message it carries, and not because it’s a great or classic work in psychology or psychiatry. It is not. But Dr. Peck’s "great truth" has slowly and methodically turned from what it is, an immutable reality of the human condition, into an enemy of the people, a reality that must be eradicated in order for us to live a happy life. Any sentiment around the notion that life is not or, worse, should not be difficult, is a denial of being, a renunciation of, a turning away from, if you will, life itself: "Life shouldn’t be so hard." "Why is my life so hard?" "Why is it that everyone else has it so much easier than I do?" It’s Eric Fromm’s Escape from Freedom and, by definition, a repudiation of our responsibility as conscious beings to make the most of what we have. An enactment of Camus’ assertion that ?Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is." It is a crime against Existence and an insult to our basic humanity to make it our goal to avoid suffering throughout life at the cost of living a meaningful life. In terms of living life, there is no easy way out.
My point is, drunk or sober, bad things are always going to happen in life. If our sobriety, our basic humanity, is contingent upon things going well, then we're pretty placing ourselves at the mercy of just about everything we cannot control. Which is substantial. Get a plan, stick with it, and stop looking for reasons (rationalizations) to drink. Life is filled with unwanted circumstances, loss, abuse, neglect, heartache, pain, and suffering, unless you can find a way to avoid all of it. (Locking yourself in your room is only creating your own despair; a type of extended suicide, like having surgery without anesthesia. Death by a thousand cuts, or by being buried alive.) All these unwanted and challenging life events are, at minimum, instructive: they reveal character rather than build it.
The one thing that every failed attempt at getting sober, at living a life with purpose, have in common is the word 'can't'. Or its variation, 'won't'. When we do this, and whether we like it or know it or not, we are thus defining ourselves by our limitations, labeling ourselves as incapable, as disabled, as much as so many people decry the use of labels, whether our limitations are physical or emotional. We label ourselves by what we do, and by what we don't or won't do. We jettison our responsibility to make something of ourselves, of our lives, and therefore surrender our freedom.
Beautiful. Just beautifully shared. Thanks for that EndGame. I've now kindled his book "The Road Less Travelled: ..." I'll enjoy this book to no end I'm sure.
I've just completed "Being Mortal" by Atul Gawande. His book speaks to the limits of medicine with respect to dying and aging. Mr. Gawande is himself a physician, as is his father and mother. His father eventually dies from cancer. This book has given me additional opportunities to more fully embrace and appreciate my own understandings of human mortality and quality of life responsibilities.
Originally Posted by EndGame
About this thread...
You've given a very rare gift here, Robby. By speaking openly about your process of facing death, you've allowed for everyone else to talk about their gravest issues, the things we don't ordinarily talk about with anyone else or under any other conditions. People have actually wrote things to this extent..."I've never talked about this before..." and such. I suppose that when you're able to talk about your own process of dying, your own death, everything else is fair game. The "ripple effect" in this thread is startling.
There's a truism that goes something along the lines of, "We approach death in the same way that we approached life." You're truly an inspiration, my friend, and you've touched many more people and in so many different ways that none of us can even calculate. None of us who've had the privilege to be a part of your process will ever be the same, and we certainly will not forget.
You've given a very rare gift here, Robby. By speaking openly about your process of facing death, you've allowed for everyone else to talk about their gravest issues, the things we don't ordinarily talk about with anyone else or under any other conditions. People have actually wrote things to this extent..."I've never talked about this before..." and such. I suppose that when you're able to talk about your own process of dying, your own death, everything else is fair game. The "ripple effect" in this thread is startling.
There's a truism that goes something along the lines of, "We approach death in the same way that we approached life." You're truly an inspiration, my friend, and you've touched many more people and in so many different ways that none of us can even calculate. None of us who've had the privilege to be a part of your process will ever be the same, and we certainly will not forget.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Cow
I super sad and angry today for nonsensical reasons that does not need hugs and in fact sympathy hugs may make condition worse and so I has nothing to contribute.
But, I not sure if ever reveal before that I fully 50% Canadian. Yes. That right. Robby and I is brotha's of the Great White Motha. ...eh.
But, I not sure if ever reveal before that I fully 50% Canadian. Yes. That right. Robby and I is brotha's of the Great White Motha. ...eh.
I understand being super sad and angry. These feelings are as authentic as any else. The headspace is trying of course. Just want you to know I hear you, my good friend.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by courage2
Hi Rob -- I lost track of you for a while today -- I was subscribed to your last thread & didn't notice it had closed. I wondered off-and-on all day why no one was posting.
I'm having some much needed quiet. No panicking colleagues or people wanting appointments until Monday. I get to mess around with a new (to me) analytic package or two. Maybe buy some clothes for the kid's wedding, if I can stand to face shopping, which I may not be able to. In short, life goes on no matter how I feel about it. Change in and of itself brings a kind of respite from whatever was bothering me yesterday.
I'm having some much needed quiet. No panicking colleagues or people wanting appointments until Monday. I get to mess around with a new (to me) analytic package or two. Maybe buy some clothes for the kid's wedding, if I can stand to face shopping, which I may not be able to. In short, life goes on no matter how I feel about it. Change in and of itself brings a kind of respite from whatever was bothering me yesterday.
Yeah, change in itself does bring its own kind of respite. Its an effect I've learned to expect and appreciate as I go about my purposes. Glad you're feeling some respite courage.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
okay.
i'm just giving a report to those kind souls here wishing me well for the wasn't-ready-for-the-longest-time amends to ex-hubby, who i hadn't seen in over twenty years.
i had asked my kids to ask him if he was okay with sharing his email address with me so i could contact him.
yes, that was okay.
i emailed a polite little mail, mentioning i had come to an understanding i'm an alcoholic and that i was an alcoholic while we were married and together (just over a decade). i said i would like to meet in order to acknowledge and take responsibility for my crappy behaviours, acts and general selfishness that added such distress and grief back then to our relationship. could we meet for coffe, or if not, could i write more extensively, or, if he wasn't interested in either, could i sincerely say that...
oh, he said, how about lunch? uh...i wrote back saying i'll meet him wherever at whatever time is good for him, but just to be clear: this is not in order to re-connect, reminisce, rehash the past. this is about me taking responsibility for how i was and what i did back then.
okay.
i haven't had shaky hands since i quit drinking! except for today; all morning. wow. nervous nervous.
we met.
i saw my nerves were stable, compared to his.
chatting for a couple of minutes, then i focused on what i had come to say.
he seemed blindsided. but i knew i had been clear in my email about the purpose.
he did what he'd always done: minimized, waved several dismissive hands, tried to reassure me nothing was really bad back then , no, we didn't talk about things back then because we just moved on, always moved on, no big deal....and really, no, this wasn't necessary...
he mostly never looked at me.
it was a very strange experience. reminiscent of "old days" non-communication except i was speaking honestly, non-hurtfully, simply, genuinely, no fudging.
EndGame, i had particularly paid attention to your recent post about amends. and had, over the last few days while moving from "willing" to "doing" incorporated/integrated what you had offered about not-simply-guilt-relieving.
these entire threads and contributors, you all have helped me so much to get to the point where i could do this in a positive way.
clearly, there's much more i could say, but this is not the place to go on and on.
i'm thankful to all in this place here, and Rob, thanks especially for inviting ongoing participation from wherever we're at.
i'm just giving a report to those kind souls here wishing me well for the wasn't-ready-for-the-longest-time amends to ex-hubby, who i hadn't seen in over twenty years.
i had asked my kids to ask him if he was okay with sharing his email address with me so i could contact him.
yes, that was okay.
i emailed a polite little mail, mentioning i had come to an understanding i'm an alcoholic and that i was an alcoholic while we were married and together (just over a decade). i said i would like to meet in order to acknowledge and take responsibility for my crappy behaviours, acts and general selfishness that added such distress and grief back then to our relationship. could we meet for coffe, or if not, could i write more extensively, or, if he wasn't interested in either, could i sincerely say that...
oh, he said, how about lunch? uh...i wrote back saying i'll meet him wherever at whatever time is good for him, but just to be clear: this is not in order to re-connect, reminisce, rehash the past. this is about me taking responsibility for how i was and what i did back then.
okay.
i haven't had shaky hands since i quit drinking! except for today; all morning. wow. nervous nervous.
we met.
i saw my nerves were stable, compared to his.
chatting for a couple of minutes, then i focused on what i had come to say.
he seemed blindsided. but i knew i had been clear in my email about the purpose.
he did what he'd always done: minimized, waved several dismissive hands, tried to reassure me nothing was really bad back then , no, we didn't talk about things back then because we just moved on, always moved on, no big deal....and really, no, this wasn't necessary...
he mostly never looked at me.
it was a very strange experience. reminiscent of "old days" non-communication except i was speaking honestly, non-hurtfully, simply, genuinely, no fudging.
EndGame, i had particularly paid attention to your recent post about amends. and had, over the last few days while moving from "willing" to "doing" incorporated/integrated what you had offered about not-simply-guilt-relieving.
these entire threads and contributors, you all have helped me so much to get to the point where i could do this in a positive way.
clearly, there's much more i could say, but this is not the place to go on and on.
i'm thankful to all in this place here, and Rob, thanks especially for inviting ongoing participation from wherever we're at.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Hi Robby.
As I recall, I don't think that The Road Less Traveled didn't catch on right away, but there seemed to be a time when almost everyone on the subway was either carrying it or reading it. I read it during a time of (or just after) emotional crisis, and it seemed to help. My wife had done all she could to help me, until she finally had no choice but to get on with her life. It took me years to appreciate her decision, and I eventually acquired a new-found respect for her.
M. Scott Peck wrote another book that I enjoyed, about the existence of evil, People of the Lie, which I read sometime during my first few years of sobriety. You and I got sober within a year of each other but I, unfortunately, chose a different path. Yet it's entirely possible that I would never have known you or the other good people here on SR had things been different.
As I recall, I don't think that The Road Less Traveled didn't catch on right away, but there seemed to be a time when almost everyone on the subway was either carrying it or reading it. I read it during a time of (or just after) emotional crisis, and it seemed to help. My wife had done all she could to help me, until she finally had no choice but to get on with her life. It took me years to appreciate her decision, and I eventually acquired a new-found respect for her.
M. Scott Peck wrote another book that I enjoyed, about the existence of evil, People of the Lie, which I read sometime during my first few years of sobriety. You and I got sober within a year of each other but I, unfortunately, chose a different path. Yet it's entirely possible that I would never have known you or the other good people here on SR had things been different.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 30,196
I liked both The Road Less Traveled and People of the Lie; I also liked A Different Drum.
The Road Less Traveled was pivotal for me. I was floored when I read the 4 hallmarks of healthy discipline:
1) Delayed gratification
2) Honesty
3) Acceptance of responsibility
4) Balance.
I had always had big problems with delayed gratification and honesty; I felt that I would get huge resistance and disapproval from people in my life if I expressed my real thoughts and wishes, so I developed a mental double life of sorts.
Now I am free to be much more honest.
The Road Less Traveled was pivotal for me. I was floored when I read the 4 hallmarks of healthy discipline:
1) Delayed gratification
2) Honesty
3) Acceptance of responsibility
4) Balance.
I had always had big problems with delayed gratification and honesty; I felt that I would get huge resistance and disapproval from people in my life if I expressed my real thoughts and wishes, so I developed a mental double life of sorts.
Now I am free to be much more honest.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Fingerlakes,NY
Posts: 4,536
Good morning all. Rainy and dark here but that's ok. Fini I am glad it went ok. The psychiatrist put me on an antidepressant so I am working through a few side effects at the moment. I am a little quiet but read all the posts here and learn something valuable every day.
Robby and Melissa hope you have a lovely day whatever you do.
Robby and Melissa hope you have a lovely day whatever you do.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Morning and evening y'all. Sunny here all day. My younger brother is visiting here early afternoon. It's good to share with him. Our friendship was on hold for decades as we hadn't spoke with each other for years at time. Our friendship now is different on both sides and is strengthening. His son visited with us the other day and it went really well too.
Hi fini. Good to hear your amends meeting with your ex worked out well for you if not apparently so much for your ex. I want to say the way you have organized your wording in the said post is an interesting style too. Very powerful. I could "feel" your emotions and follow your experiences as you progressed through and kept your responsibility to the amends process. How do you feel about it today? For me, days after my amends with whomever, I benefited more that I did on the original day of my amends.
Hi Della.
I hope the side effects pass quickly and you soon enough have some relief from your depression. And I hope you too have a great day.
Hi Gilmer. I like how you mentioned a kind of mental double life and glad to hear your more free with yourself.
Hi fini. Good to hear your amends meeting with your ex worked out well for you if not apparently so much for your ex. I want to say the way you have organized your wording in the said post is an interesting style too. Very powerful. I could "feel" your emotions and follow your experiences as you progressed through and kept your responsibility to the amends process. How do you feel about it today? For me, days after my amends with whomever, I benefited more that I did on the original day of my amends.
Hi Della.
I hope the side effects pass quickly and you soon enough have some relief from your depression. And I hope you too have a great day.
Hi Gilmer. I like how you mentioned a kind of mental double life and glad to hear your more free with yourself.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,459
Hey all y'all (that is the correct expression when addressing more than one person. With one person you say "hey y'all, not all y'all) 
Well, I have been doing some "light" reading this past week - Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Nietzsche. I was motivated to do so by reading these threads and the exploration of the notion of authenticity. I have always loved philosophy, especially existentialism. It is nice to get a refresher on these concepts.
This book might have been discussed before, Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning". I really liked how he addressed our existential angst that people cannot avoid suffering, but they can derive meaning from it. “He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.” EndGame's postings mentioned how we must assign meaning to our lives and not simply exist.
Well, I just wanted to mention that book Rob - you probably know about it already. Deep topics on a Saturday morning. My head hurts
Well, I have been doing some "light" reading this past week - Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Nietzsche. I was motivated to do so by reading these threads and the exploration of the notion of authenticity. I have always loved philosophy, especially existentialism. It is nice to get a refresher on these concepts.
This book might have been discussed before, Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning". I really liked how he addressed our existential angst that people cannot avoid suffering, but they can derive meaning from it. “He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.” EndGame's postings mentioned how we must assign meaning to our lives and not simply exist.
Well, I just wanted to mention that book Rob - you probably know about it already. Deep topics on a Saturday morning. My head hurts
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Hi ArtFriend. Fun stuff about the proper use of "y'all" and "Hey all y'all" for greeting more than one-- I like that!
Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Nietzsche are well known to me. Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" is not. I'll check it out on Kindle. Thank you.
Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Nietzsche are well known to me. Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" is not. I'll check it out on Kindle. Thank you.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Hi Rob, Melissa, and everyone. I just read through this new thread as I did not have time (and energy) yesterday.
Robby, that was a cool story about navigating in the dock -- yet another feature that shows your strength and determination. And creativity. I hope you continue to gain strength and will be able to enjoy those adventures in ways you like it best
Brynn, please don't feel for a moment like being a "leech" for seeking support and sympathy here. But if you do, I think one of the great aspects of groups like this (Robby's friendly circuit here and SR as a whole) is that no one needs to feel being dependent on one single person for support, or like exhausting anyone. It's a bunch of us and what's great is that different people jump in with the most relevant experiences to share and help.
EndGame, I have not expressed to you this directly yet so will now: I'm so glad Mary Ann's treatment has proven successful and she is improving. On her not telling you and the family about her initial prognosis and outlook... Well, the first thing that came to mind reading it was that I would probably do the same with family... the second, is this really a reflection of denial? I don't know Mary Ann, but the way I would think about it is more in line with not wanting to stress out my family with information that I think I can handle by myself, especially if I had someone in the family I was very close with and knew they had difficulties in the past with the loss of loved ones. Just like what you mentioned on your thread about not wanting to overwhelm Mary Ann with your own experience, how this thing is exhausting sometimes. You mentioned on your thread that Mary Ann noticed your being tired and overwhelmed though -- again, if I saw something like that, would never want to add to it even more. Plus, given that you guys have a large family... again, based on what you shared with us about her being an independent spirit, I might even withhold that sort of info in order to protect myself from everyone's wanting to shower me with their attention in regards to something that is actually quite uncertain as of yet. I may be seeing this wrongly as I don't know any of you IRL and the whole situation, but I'm there with Robby in that I'm glad you did not insist on those conversations about her sharing that info or not. And will add that please don't take this as either her refusing your support or not trusting that you could endure such a situation well without drinking or anything adverse.
fini, thanks for sharing that amends meeting with us. As I expressed on an earlier thread, I am very interested in hearing others' experiences with this. Intuitively, I can very easily get how and why other people we want to make amends to get confused and won't necessarily handle it with an attitude that is different from old ones. They are not in this whole process from the inside the way we (addicts) are, and yes if those past things happened a good while ago, people do move on and it can be a little weird and confusing when we want to revive the discussion and put it in a different light. I'm also glad it was a meaningful experience for you overall.
On the discussion about M. Scott Peck's books... I've read a bunch of them also in the past. The Road Less Traveled, People of the Li, A Different Drum, and Denial of the Soul. I like the latter two the best personally, especially Denial of the Soul but that's probably just me as the topic of that one has always intrigued me (look it up if not familiar). I recall when I was reading The Road Less Traveled, I actually felt he was writing things that seemed obvious to me rather than startling or new in any way, but again, that is just me. I don't want to say more and spoil it
Gilmer, there is nothing surprising about struggling with delayed gratification and honesty for people who dealt with addictions. From those four, I feel that the second two have tended to be problematic for me earlier in my life: acceptance of responsibility and balance. Especially balance, and that is still and issue for me in a few ways. As for responsibility, when I was younger I habitually tried to avoid taking responsibility for anything else but myself driven by a fear- and insecurity-fueled perception of freedom (or a projection of potential loss of freedom). It's been a challenging process for me to change/improve that, but I'm now quite happy with the result. Of course there is always more room for growth in areas that we struggle with. I think balance will always be a challenge for me.
AF, I had two periods in the past when I buried myself into existentialism -- one during college, and then a few years later towards the end of grad school. I remember I just wanted to lock myself up with those authors and books and not even go to work, and my PhD supervisor was after me for wth I was doing instead of producing experimental results in the lab Oh, and again later when I lived in London, with Emmy van Deurzen's ideas. And yet again a bit about a year ago when I was working with a therapist whose approaches are very loaded with the existential approach.
Finally, I agree with EndGame's notion that these threads, our connections here, and these discussions trigger/create changes in many of us who participate regularly. It would actually be interesting once to discuss how we all subjectively experience the effect, maybe at some later point?
Robby, have a good time with your bro, and a great weekend to everyone
Robby, that was a cool story about navigating in the dock -- yet another feature that shows your strength and determination. And creativity. I hope you continue to gain strength and will be able to enjoy those adventures in ways you like it best
Brynn, please don't feel for a moment like being a "leech" for seeking support and sympathy here. But if you do, I think one of the great aspects of groups like this (Robby's friendly circuit here and SR as a whole) is that no one needs to feel being dependent on one single person for support, or like exhausting anyone. It's a bunch of us and what's great is that different people jump in with the most relevant experiences to share and help.
EndGame, I have not expressed to you this directly yet so will now: I'm so glad Mary Ann's treatment has proven successful and she is improving. On her not telling you and the family about her initial prognosis and outlook... Well, the first thing that came to mind reading it was that I would probably do the same with family... the second, is this really a reflection of denial? I don't know Mary Ann, but the way I would think about it is more in line with not wanting to stress out my family with information that I think I can handle by myself, especially if I had someone in the family I was very close with and knew they had difficulties in the past with the loss of loved ones. Just like what you mentioned on your thread about not wanting to overwhelm Mary Ann with your own experience, how this thing is exhausting sometimes. You mentioned on your thread that Mary Ann noticed your being tired and overwhelmed though -- again, if I saw something like that, would never want to add to it even more. Plus, given that you guys have a large family... again, based on what you shared with us about her being an independent spirit, I might even withhold that sort of info in order to protect myself from everyone's wanting to shower me with their attention in regards to something that is actually quite uncertain as of yet. I may be seeing this wrongly as I don't know any of you IRL and the whole situation, but I'm there with Robby in that I'm glad you did not insist on those conversations about her sharing that info or not. And will add that please don't take this as either her refusing your support or not trusting that you could endure such a situation well without drinking or anything adverse.
fini, thanks for sharing that amends meeting with us. As I expressed on an earlier thread, I am very interested in hearing others' experiences with this. Intuitively, I can very easily get how and why other people we want to make amends to get confused and won't necessarily handle it with an attitude that is different from old ones. They are not in this whole process from the inside the way we (addicts) are, and yes if those past things happened a good while ago, people do move on and it can be a little weird and confusing when we want to revive the discussion and put it in a different light. I'm also glad it was a meaningful experience for you overall.
On the discussion about M. Scott Peck's books... I've read a bunch of them also in the past. The Road Less Traveled, People of the Li, A Different Drum, and Denial of the Soul. I like the latter two the best personally, especially Denial of the Soul but that's probably just me as the topic of that one has always intrigued me (look it up if not familiar). I recall when I was reading The Road Less Traveled, I actually felt he was writing things that seemed obvious to me rather than startling or new in any way, but again, that is just me. I don't want to say more and spoil it
Gilmer, there is nothing surprising about struggling with delayed gratification and honesty for people who dealt with addictions. From those four, I feel that the second two have tended to be problematic for me earlier in my life: acceptance of responsibility and balance. Especially balance, and that is still and issue for me in a few ways. As for responsibility, when I was younger I habitually tried to avoid taking responsibility for anything else but myself driven by a fear- and insecurity-fueled perception of freedom (or a projection of potential loss of freedom). It's been a challenging process for me to change/improve that, but I'm now quite happy with the result. Of course there is always more room for growth in areas that we struggle with. I think balance will always be a challenge for me.
AF, I had two periods in the past when I buried myself into existentialism -- one during college, and then a few years later towards the end of grad school. I remember I just wanted to lock myself up with those authors and books and not even go to work, and my PhD supervisor was after me for wth I was doing instead of producing experimental results in the lab
Oh, and again later when I lived in London, with Emmy van Deurzen's ideas. And yet again a bit about a year ago when I was working with a therapist whose approaches are very loaded with the existential approach. Finally, I agree with EndGame's notion that these threads, our connections here, and these discussions trigger/create changes in many of us who participate regularly. It would actually be interesting once to discuss how we all subjectively experience the effect, maybe at some later point?
Robby, have a good time with your bro, and a great weekend to everyone
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,860
As always, this thread provides fodder for reflection and opportunity to reach out in support of our fellow journeyers. Both in abundance.
Time prohibits that for me at the moment, but I would like to send peaceful wishes to Rob and Melissa. I checked weather.com and it looks like a cloudy day in Ottawa. Light so often radiates from within both of you.
It's Jazz Fest where I live. Last night, I took in a pleasant outdoor concert by a combo playing Brazilian fare. Today, it's sunny and I'm off with a friend to the main stages downtown; we have tickets for Dr. John this afternoon. Lots of jazz cats in the city today.
I'm a sober cat. It's a kick to say that.
Time prohibits that for me at the moment, but I would like to send peaceful wishes to Rob and Melissa. I checked weather.com and it looks like a cloudy day in Ottawa. Light so often radiates from within both of you.
It's Jazz Fest where I live. Last night, I took in a pleasant outdoor concert by a combo playing Brazilian fare. Today, it's sunny and I'm off with a friend to the main stages downtown; we have tickets for Dr. John this afternoon. Lots of jazz cats in the city today.
I'm a sober cat. It's a kick to say that.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,042
OK folks - a song for y'all -- "don't you know when one door is closed many more is open?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvo9nSUN974
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvo9nSUN974
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Robby, I will also add to the recommendation for Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. I think it comes up every now and then here on SR (EndGame has done some good promo for it also here, right? ) and I suggested it to some members myself before. I briefly mentioned the period of my life I lived in London in the past... I was a post-doc back then working with a supervisor with whom we were startlingly similar in personality, thinking style, interests, lifestyle... that was one of the most productive and enjoyable parts of my more junior career. Part of it was our shared interest in philosophy, and when I learned he was actually teaching Philosophy of Science to undergrads, and then he asked me to participate in the classes. So for two years we ran them together, and besides the usual course material and readings, we added Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. Not so much in the very direct context of science, more as we thought many young people with an interest in research as a way of living (not just a career) might find it interesting. Many loved the book, and I still recommend it to my students when I see fit.
Venecia, oh that sounds fun, I love live music (jazz included), have a wonderful time!
courage, I find that song relaxing and uplifting. Need to do some data analysis with long strings of numbers but nothing too new now -- I think I'll plug into more Bob Marley so that it's not that monotonous
So for me mostly work this weekend as I have not caught up adequately during the past week (was quite out of it both emotionally and energy-wise), but I feel good now to catch up and will take breaks to go to the movies, walk around, and read other things than science.
Thanks everyone
) and I suggested it to some members myself before. I briefly mentioned the period of my life I lived in London in the past... I was a post-doc back then working with a supervisor with whom we were startlingly similar in personality, thinking style, interests, lifestyle... that was one of the most productive and enjoyable parts of my more junior career. Part of it was our shared interest in philosophy, and when I learned he was actually teaching Philosophy of Science to undergrads, and then he asked me to participate in the classes. So for two years we ran them together, and besides the usual course material and readings, we added Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. Not so much in the very direct context of science, more as we thought many young people with an interest in research as a way of living (not just a career) might find it interesting. Many loved the book, and I still recommend it to my students when I see fit. Venecia, oh that sounds fun, I love live music (jazz included), have a wonderful time!
courage, I find that song relaxing and uplifting. Need to do some data analysis with long strings of numbers but nothing too new now -- I think I'll plug into more Bob Marley so that it's not that monotonous
So for me mostly work this weekend as I have not caught up adequately during the past week (was quite out of it both emotionally and energy-wise), but I feel good now to catch up and will take breaks to go to the movies, walk around, and read other things than science.
Thanks everyone
...holds the key
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,065
Good morning y'all.
I do find myself saying 'all y'all' to groups of people occasionally, along with the ever popular 'fixin to'.....which means 'about to' as in do something (which actually makes me cringe when it slips out in more sophisticated settings).
I hope you have a good visit with your brother, Robby. I'm sure these visits take on much more meaning and importance now, maybe not in the sense that certain things must be said or understood, but just being comfortable 'being' with each other and especially someone who shares your early life experiences. I'm not particularly close to any of my brothers, but we are bonded by the fact that only we can know what each other's growing up years were like.
I'm very interested in the books mentioned but will have to wait to start in on them till I'm not so distracted. I'm one of those readers who gets so lost in a book I lose all track of time. Reading is Lovely distraction.
Hope everyone has a good day.
Xoxo
I do find myself saying 'all y'all' to groups of people occasionally, along with the ever popular 'fixin to'.....which means 'about to' as in do something (which actually makes me cringe when it slips out in more sophisticated settings).
I hope you have a good visit with your brother, Robby. I'm sure these visits take on much more meaning and importance now, maybe not in the sense that certain things must be said or understood, but just being comfortable 'being' with each other and especially someone who shares your early life experiences. I'm not particularly close to any of my brothers, but we are bonded by the fact that only we can know what each other's growing up years were like.
I'm very interested in the books mentioned but will have to wait to start in on them till I'm not so distracted. I'm one of those readers who gets so lost in a book I lose all track of time. Reading is Lovely distraction.
Hope everyone has a good day.
Xoxo
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,042
Originally Posted by brynn
Good morning y'all.
I do find myself saying 'all y'all' to groups of people occasionally, along with the ever popular 'fixin to'.....which means 'about to' as in do something (which actually makes me cringe when it slips out in more sophisticated settings).
I do find myself saying 'all y'all' to groups of people occasionally, along with the ever popular 'fixin to'.....which means 'about to' as in do something (which actually makes me cringe when it slips out in more sophisticated settings).
My roots are central/Southern Illinois --but I emphatically don't rhyme roots with foots. Among friends I also say "ink pen" to disambiguate from "pin". In Chicago I got in the habit of saying "finna" which is based on "fixin to." As in, I'm finna buy some straights.
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