Forced to Drink - Apparently It's a Thing
Hears The Voice
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
Forced to Drink - Apparently It's a Thing
OK, the subject line is a bit of click bait. Sorry. Interesting situation, though, so keep reading...
Road tripping with Mrs Nons last weekend, so we were listening to a lot of podcasts. (It's our thing!) One of the podcasts was an interview with David Sedaris.
If you don't know him, he's an author and humorist frequently on NPR. Also a former meth head and alcohol addict. He is an American, but he lives in Europe.
He has a new book out, hence the publicity tour. The interviewer asked him about how he gave up alcohol and he said simply that he just decided to quit. He said some friends told him that would never work - you can't just decide to quit drinking, but that just fueled his resolve (which I can relate to!). He never mentioned AVRT, RR, or a BP, but the relationship was clear to me.
He also told a story I thought was intriguing. He was asked if it is more difficult to stay sober on tour than at home. He said Americans are generally more perceptive. When he declines a drink Americans seem to understand right away don't press the issue. In Europe they keep after you if you decline. Once he was at a wedding reception in France and they were at the toasting round. The bride's mother was adamant that he take champagne to toast. He refused, so she dipped her finger into the champagne and jammed it into his mouth.
That story made me think about the hundreds of times I have read (or written) on these forums that alcohol could never get into my mouth without my permission. Apparently it can!
Road tripping with Mrs Nons last weekend, so we were listening to a lot of podcasts. (It's our thing!) One of the podcasts was an interview with David Sedaris.
If you don't know him, he's an author and humorist frequently on NPR. Also a former meth head and alcohol addict. He is an American, but he lives in Europe.
He has a new book out, hence the publicity tour. The interviewer asked him about how he gave up alcohol and he said simply that he just decided to quit. He said some friends told him that would never work - you can't just decide to quit drinking, but that just fueled his resolve (which I can relate to!). He never mentioned AVRT, RR, or a BP, but the relationship was clear to me.
He also told a story I thought was intriguing. He was asked if it is more difficult to stay sober on tour than at home. He said Americans are generally more perceptive. When he declines a drink Americans seem to understand right away don't press the issue. In Europe they keep after you if you decline. Once he was at a wedding reception in France and they were at the toasting round. The bride's mother was adamant that he take champagne to toast. He refused, so she dipped her finger into the champagne and jammed it into his mouth.
That story made me think about the hundreds of times I have read (or written) on these forums that alcohol could never get into my mouth without my permission. Apparently it can!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,578
Interesting... how bizarre that someone would think it so important, that they would actually commit assault to get you to drink
Sedaris was one of the people I thought of when I was learning about AVRT. He described the moment he quit. He was visiting a friend who had just come home from inpatient rehab. He (Sedaris) wanted to drink, so he filled his friend's frig up with alcohol. Sedaris drank, and his friend did too. Sedaris felt that what he had done was deeply immoral --- satisfying his own desire to drink without any thought of his friend's situation. He was so disgusted with himself, that he said that's it, and he quit. Said he didn't seek help or go to AA because he didn't want to have to hold hands with strangers.
I'm reading his new book now. He also has a very funny and moving account of his mother's alcoholism in this week's New Yorker.
Sedaris was one of the people I thought of when I was learning about AVRT. He described the moment he quit. He was visiting a friend who had just come home from inpatient rehab. He (Sedaris) wanted to drink, so he filled his friend's frig up with alcohol. Sedaris drank, and his friend did too. Sedaris felt that what he had done was deeply immoral --- satisfying his own desire to drink without any thought of his friend's situation. He was so disgusted with himself, that he said that's it, and he quit. Said he didn't seek help or go to AA because he didn't want to have to hold hands with strangers.
I'm reading his new book now. He also has a very funny and moving account of his mother's alcoholism in this week's New Yorker.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
Actually, I know that I am far from being willing to go to any lengths, or not drink no matter what.
If someone held a gun to my head ... pretty sure I'd drink. If they held It to my son's ... I know I would.
That said, I only know the length I have been willing to go to not drink ... If I haven't had to face something it would be arrogant of me to say I wouldn't drink no matter what.
And what is important is that I haven't been asked to go to such extreme lengths to be committed to sobriety.
If someone held a gun to my head ... pretty sure I'd drink. If they held It to my son's ... I know I would.
That said, I only know the length I have been willing to go to not drink ... If I haven't had to face something it would be arrogant of me to say I wouldn't drink no matter what.
And what is important is that I haven't been asked to go to such extreme lengths to be committed to sobriety.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
Been there with toasting thing and champagne, though no one ever assaulted me over it.
I just held the glass up and didnt drink.
Weren't no thing. I dislike champagne.
Now, if they had been toasting with bourbon.....
I just held the glass up and didnt drink.
Weren't no thing. I dislike champagne.
Now, if they had been toasting with bourbon.....
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by ananda 
Actually, I know that I am far from being willing to go to any lengths, or not drink no matter what.
If someone held a gun to my head ... pretty sure I'd drink. If they held It to my son's ... I know I would.
That said, I only know the length I have been willing to go to not drink ... If I haven't had to face something it would be arrogant of me to say I wouldn't drink no matter what.
And what is important is that I haven't been asked to go to such extreme lengths to be committed to sobriety.
If someone held a gun to my head ... pretty sure I'd drink. If they held It to my son's ... I know I would.
That said, I only know the length I have been willing to go to not drink ... If I haven't had to face something it would be arrogant of me to say I wouldn't drink no matter what.
And what is important is that I haven't been asked to go to such extreme lengths to be committed to sobriety.
Taking a drink might be the better of alternatives at any given moment. There are some decisions much worse, I've seen their carnage.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 170
Discussions like this are All Beast and it loves them.
What if an eccentric businessman promised you $1 million investment if you took a drink of his rare brandy?
What if you knew a nuclear war was imminent and a cold case of lager fell off a beer truck and flew onto your deck in the backyard?
What if you were stranded on an island and cold six pack washed ashore?
Fact is, these are all ridiculous situations - like someone wetting their hand and shoving it in your mouth. Which I could hardly call drinking.
As such, they are doubt, as such they are AV, as such they are Beast.
As such, they are ignored.
What if an eccentric businessman promised you $1 million investment if you took a drink of his rare brandy?
What if you knew a nuclear war was imminent and a cold case of lager fell off a beer truck and flew onto your deck in the backyard?
What if you were stranded on an island and cold six pack washed ashore?
Fact is, these are all ridiculous situations - like someone wetting their hand and shoving it in your mouth. Which I could hardly call drinking.
As such, they are doubt, as such they are AV, as such they are Beast.
As such, they are ignored.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
I almost responded to Ananda's post about drinking if one's child is threatened.....then I thought about how that situation would never happen and that I refuse to give my Beast even that little tiny bit of wiggle room that in some hypothetical obsure and absurd situation I may be forced or tempted in some way to drink. I never drink and that's all there is to it.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
In a similar vein to these obscure , fanciful situations where drinking again is contemplated or even planned, what is meant by ' going to any lengths ' to not drink?
What lengths ? and what near unstoppable ,oppressive force is driving the need for such lengths?
What lengths ? and what near unstoppable ,oppressive force is driving the need for such lengths?
Hears The Voice
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
Originally Posted by Greenwood618
What if an eccentric businessman promised you $1 million investment if you took a drink of his rare brandy?
Originally Posted by Greenwood618
What if you knew a nuclear war was imminent and a cold case of lager fell off a beer truck and flew onto your deck in the backyard?
Originally Posted by Greenwood618
What if you were stranded on an island and cold six pack washed ashore?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
In RR that state is considered an AV attack and the rationale is that as soon as the act of drinking is about to take place the depression suddenly lifts. The thinking of, "Ohhhh I can't live like this, I'm so depressed, everything is meaningless....... if I'm going to kill myself I might as well go ahead and drink!" And as soon as the addict has that drink in hand and is anticipating that first sip, "Ahhhh, mmmm that feels good." Depression suddenly vanishes.
Of course, people can be legitimately depressed and suicidal, in that case, they are best to get medical attention and not a prescription of shots of whiskey.
Of course, people can be legitimately depressed and suicidal, in that case, they are best to get medical attention and not a prescription of shots of whiskey.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
Originally Posted by dwtbd
In a similar vein to these obscure , fanciful situations where drinking again is contemplated or even planned, what is meant by ' going to any lengths ' to not drink?
What lengths ? and what near unstoppable ,oppressive force is driving the need for such lengths?
What lengths ? and what near unstoppable ,oppressive force is driving the need for such lengths?
On page 58 of AA's Big Book, the following invitation is offered: "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it--then you are ready to take certain steps."
By going to any lengths they mean taking the 12 steps.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Detox and or withdrawal are more appropriate the 'lengths', after that don't consume alcohol or do and suffer the consequences. You can't avoid the consequences , I tried to no avail, the simplicity was lost on me.
Being abstinent only guarantees no alcohol problems, everything else is 'just' life. Life without the negative effects of alcohol consumption.
I highly recommend it,as opposed to any alternatives.
Being abstinent only guarantees no alcohol problems, everything else is 'just' life. Life without the negative effects of alcohol consumption.
I highly recommend it,as opposed to any alternatives.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
But it's amazing how many of the problems were specific to alcohol. I used to think I had all kinds of problems but it turned out that I actually only had one.
I highly recommend AVRT too. I just love that I can address that one big problem that had been plaguing my life for years and then simply carry on living my life free as a non drinker. No strings attached, just freedom.
I highly recommend AVRT too. I just love that I can address that one big problem that had been plaguing my life for years and then simply carry on living my life free as a non drinker. No strings attached, just freedom.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
It's good to hear that for some people it really is just the alcohol. I found my situation far more complex, including physical ailments, chronic pain, needing to address anxiety (that had long been kept in check by alcohol), and then a couple of years into sobriety, having floods of buried memories emerge into consciousness that I did not expect, including abuse in early childhood. There is plenty of psychobabble out there, no doubt, but there are many studies that show a correlation between adverse childhood experiences and health, as well as behavioral health, issues. I encourage folks to check this out: https://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventi...udy/about.html
The bottom line is for folks like me who consumed alcohol and other drugs for many years, it is a huge adjustment to learn to face life without using substances to de-stress. Not feeling safe in childhood wired anxiety and hyper-vigilance into my system, fueling substance use and subsequent addiction. When we get the horrors, the inclination is to reach for something that will calm us (first learned then wired into our systems through habit). That's why acceptance practice, gratitude, and mindfulness have helped me so much. My new high was to surf the horrors, naked, and without any chemical assistance. After a few years, the horrors are mostly just irritants and sometimes waves of sadness, but those waves have increasing sweetness.
As far as "going any lengths" to stay sober, I can't really relate. The phrase has an air of white-knuckled desperation in it. I avoid alcohol and other drugs, no doubt, but any length?
The bottom line is for folks like me who consumed alcohol and other drugs for many years, it is a huge adjustment to learn to face life without using substances to de-stress. Not feeling safe in childhood wired anxiety and hyper-vigilance into my system, fueling substance use and subsequent addiction. When we get the horrors, the inclination is to reach for something that will calm us (first learned then wired into our systems through habit). That's why acceptance practice, gratitude, and mindfulness have helped me so much. My new high was to surf the horrors, naked, and without any chemical assistance. After a few years, the horrors are mostly just irritants and sometimes waves of sadness, but those waves have increasing sweetness.
As far as "going any lengths" to stay sober, I can't really relate. The phrase has an air of white-knuckled desperation in it. I avoid alcohol and other drugs, no doubt, but any length?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
My parents set my up for addiction, my mom passed me my first joint at 14 and by 17 I was scoring ecstasy pills for my parents and doing fat lines of cocaine with my dad. I openly did drugs at home and became my mom's drinking buddy. It was beyond inappropriate. I watched my dad get terribly ill from withdrawal if he couldn't get his pills and witnessed all kinds of other crazy stuff. I'm 38 years old now though and my childhood isn't an excuse anymore.
Drugs and drinking were the problem in my childhood home. My parents should have done better but then didn't. What can I do? It was a long time ago, time to move on.
I was in an abusive marriage where he did things like pin me down on the ground and head butt me in the face and break my nose.
Drugs and drinking were part of the problem. He was also an abusive bully but we partied a lot and it made us both nuts. I've been to therapy to regain my self esteem and get past the PTSD symptoms I had for awhile afterward.
I have chronic pain. I'd been off work on and off the last few years because I was having trouble walking and getting around.
Drinking was the problem. I was damaging my joints and not taking care of myself. My pain and inflammation are way down since I'm not poisoning myself with copious amounts of beer. Exercise and clean living go a long way.
I don't buy into all of that anymore. I used to. I had all kinds of reasons for why I drank. Truth was that I liked how it made me feel. If I was in any kind of physical or emotional pain it made me feel better. If I was already feeling fine it made me feel finer. And if I pull back to the root of the problems I've had in my life I've found addiction to be the source.
Drugs and drinking were the problem in my childhood home. My parents should have done better but then didn't. What can I do? It was a long time ago, time to move on.
I was in an abusive marriage where he did things like pin me down on the ground and head butt me in the face and break my nose.
Drugs and drinking were part of the problem. He was also an abusive bully but we partied a lot and it made us both nuts. I've been to therapy to regain my self esteem and get past the PTSD symptoms I had for awhile afterward.
I have chronic pain. I'd been off work on and off the last few years because I was having trouble walking and getting around.
Drinking was the problem. I was damaging my joints and not taking care of myself. My pain and inflammation are way down since I'm not poisoning myself with copious amounts of beer. Exercise and clean living go a long way.
I don't buy into all of that anymore. I used to. I had all kinds of reasons for why I drank. Truth was that I liked how it made me feel. If I was in any kind of physical or emotional pain it made me feel better. If I was already feeling fine it made me feel finer. And if I pull back to the root of the problems I've had in my life I've found addiction to be the source.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
I had a lot of reasons why I wanted to get drunk or reasons that I felt justified wanting to get drunk. One reason to drink though and that was to get drunk.
Being addicted is being stuck, stuck with wanting to stop and at the same time not wanting to stop, sick of the consequences but continuing the behavior regardless. The only way to end that state is to not drink again ever. There really is no way around that. Accepting that fact and dealing with it are as hard as anyone wants to make it.
My comment , really a rhetoric question, was geared toward pointing out that the 'lengths' one must overcome is the AV , the idea that not putting alcohol down your throat is more than not putting alcohol down your throat.
Ending an addiction isn't about fixing your life, it's about stopping the damage we do/did to our lives by not ending the addiction.
Being addicted is being stuck, stuck with wanting to stop and at the same time not wanting to stop, sick of the consequences but continuing the behavior regardless. The only way to end that state is to not drink again ever. There really is no way around that. Accepting that fact and dealing with it are as hard as anyone wants to make it.
My comment , really a rhetoric question, was geared toward pointing out that the 'lengths' one must overcome is the AV , the idea that not putting alcohol down your throat is more than not putting alcohol down your throat.
Ending an addiction isn't about fixing your life, it's about stopping the damage we do/did to our lives by not ending the addiction.
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