jonbald

Some of you are familiar with our ongoing story.

Our 37-year-old son who has depression, anxiety, social anxiety, low self-esteem, ADD and is an alcoholic lives with us. He has not been good at holding down jobs. Some he has been fired from and some he just walked off because he wasn't going to do the work required. He has been on medications and has seen psychiatrists and psychologist since he was in high school over 20 years ago. At my encouragement, he has applied for disability and there's at least a year left in that process. He is manipulative, lazy and, like an alcoholic, he lies to us. Our current living situation is very uncomfortable and many in Alanon and other "normal" people have advised us that he should be expelled from the house. This would leave him homeless. He currently has a new job, but he is only getting 15 hours a week when he needs to have 30. Here's the latest:

I have talked with him about doing a budget. He didn’t see how he could do a budget on the few hours he’s currently getting at work. I told him (as I have explained multiple times before) that he would have to get another part-time job to get his hours up to 30 a week. He did not like that. I then went over what his income would be and what his rent would be, and how much discretionary money he’d have left. He would have plenty but not enough to support his lifestyle of smoking, energy drinks, constant fast food, and the game store. I told him we’d discussed that he’d have to be frugal to pay us back (pay rent) when we helped him buy a car he wanted (rather than taking the better car we offered to give him). He didn’t complain then, nor when we helped him buy new tires, or repair his transmission all for this poorly chosen new car(which had twice the mileage of the one we'd offered him). He didn’t mind the fact that he’d have to live frugally when we were loaning him money.

He said he had worked his ass off at the new job and I explained that he hadn’t even put in one 40 hour week. Only one week did they give him 32 hours and the other three weeks he only got 15.

I explained to him that everyone who knows our situation thinks he has it made here, living with his parents in a nice house, food, etc. and has no motivation to grow up. I explained that since he was living with us that he was basically living as a child at home and not as an adult. I said that he was going to have to start showing some adult maturity if he wanted to live here

I told him if he preferred, his mother and I could back off and allow him to make his own decisions and live with the consequences. He said he didn’t know what that means and I explained that it meant he could live on his own, but not with us. He did not like that.

He’s not keeping his post-rehab agreement with us in small ways and his attitude is not good. He isn’t blatantly oppositional, butt he has a poor attitude when he does what I ask. If I ask him to empty the dishwasher he doesn’t look too happy about it because it’s not one of his regular chores. He’s not followed through on his post-rehab plan and, when I asked if he had one he said not. But, I know for a fact he left rehab with a written plan, so he lied to me.

His psychiatrist put him back on Adderall which has given him problems in the past with abuse issues. I am supposed to dole it out to him so I put it in a weekly pill box and now he’s using it improperly so I have to go to a once a day system.

His mother and I have discussed the work situation and have decided that it is not depression, anxiety, ADD, or the mental illness that is creating this attitude and situation. While we know how hard it is for him to live with those conditions, his problem right now is a flat out decision that he wants to live with us on his terms and does not want to live with the house rules or cooperate willingly with us.

We have decided to give him one week to see if his current job gives him more hours or the promotion that he’d thought he was getting (he hasn’t gotten that promotion to full-time and they are using him about 15 hours a week just to do the hard work of unloading the truck without the other responsibilities he’d been promised). If they don’t give him more hours within a week, he will have two weeks to get another part-time job or get out of the house. This is going to be terribly hard to enforce. I actually kicked him out of the house at the age of 18 due to these same type problems, but it seems harder now. I am older and sort of worn out.

I hope I am not downplaying the mental illness part of this, but he even slacks on getting his disability paperwork completed unless I prompt him to do it. He has clearly made a career of lying to us like alcoholics do and we’re just tired. We are not the same people we used to be, it has changed us. Something has to change. We're 61 and 62 and should be getting ready to enjoy retirement instead of struggling with an adult child who won't grow up.

Sorry to go on and on but it helps is a small way to vent. Is there anyone out there with the same situation? How did you deal with it?

Soberwolf

Have you posted here yet

Friends and Family of Alcoholics - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

12-Step Support for Friends and Family - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

Secular Connections for Friends and Family - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

Relationships & Parenting In Sobriety - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

jonbald

I had gotten the first two, but not the last. Thanks for the tips.

SoberCAH

I don't know your son's entire diagnosis or prognosis, so I don't know whether he is disabled or would rather have a government check than a job or 2.

But it seems like nothing is going to change if you and your spouse keep making adaptive changes to fit your son's behavior.

When I was a young man, I was a practicing alcoholic and drug addict, and I had depression, GAD and low self-esteem.

I had plenty of dirty, menial jobs before I took steps to achieve a modest level of marketability, but I was grateful to have them because they gave me the chance to make and save some money.

Is your son too disabled to work a full-time job?

I see seriously mentally challenged people working at the grocery store.

My parents never bought me a car (I bought my first one at age 26). I took a lot of city buses and Greyhounds for many years.

What motivated me to study and work long hours was an intense fear of poverty.

I suggest you and your spouse take care of each other and let your son fend for himself.

Otherwise, you are going to continue to spend your time and money trying to solve his problems.

jonbald

He is disabled enough that he hasn't held onto many jobs. We are working with his sponsor to try intermediate steps and avoid eviction if possible, the goal being transitioning to independence once the disability comes through or doesn't come through. At that point he has to get out.

kittycat3

I'm sorry for your hurting and trouble with your son. Have you been to al-anon? It sounds like you have gone above and beyond to try to help but it's still not fixing the problem. How frustrating. I wish I had better advice but just know that I am praying for you and your son. In my experience it is very hard to get disability, especially when there is active addiction involved....you obviously know far more about the situation but from what I'm reading it seems like a plan B is in order. Hugs.

jonbald

We go to Alanon and I participate in online discussions on this site with Friends and Families of Alcoholics. I also participate in online discussions with Families Anonymous that deals a lot with the parenting of adult addicts. The plan B, if he doesn't get disability, is that he move out and deal with life on his own. Disability takes about a year and a half according to his attorneys. You usually get turned down twice and then it goes to court. I have heard, God forbid, that it can take 3 years in our state because we have one of the highest rates of disability in the nation and many people want to get it. The bottom line is we can't let him live with us forever regardless of his conditions. While he is mentally ill with depression, anxiety, social anxiety, ADD, he also has a strong oppositional streak. He will do the absolute minimum to get by in a situation and will lie and manipulate. It is highly possible we make kick him to the curb before he has a chance to obtain his disability, depending on how he behaves, cooperates, and pursues real recovery with a sponsor. It is very hard on us having to make these decisions, but I think in many ways it would be less hard if he were out of the house. Then we wouldn't have to be around him so much.

kittycat3

I'm so sorry you are in this place and I pray you and your family will find a way out of this. It might take him to lose his place in the nest to really find his sea legs so to speak. Hard for all I know. I wish you much strength and love for the days ahead.

jonbald

A good deal has happened and things have gotten harder. I had talked with his sponsor and he informed me that he and the new guy had set up a 9 point plan for Russ to follow in order to move forward and find some happiness. This, of course, included calling his sponsor every day. This was done on Tuesday night. As of Friday, Russ had missed a phone call on Friday and his sponsor was going to see what happened between then a Saturday morning. They also talked to him about going to a sober living house and he blew that off saying he'd already done that before. They also suggested that spending an exorbitant amount of time at the game store wasn't helpful in his recovery, but instead he should surround himself with people who would aid his recovery.

Before his meeting Saturday morning where he was to see his sponsor, I texted him that Russ had not followed through on part of an instruction I'd given him earlier in the week. I'd cut him some slack and let him put off twice mowing the grass when he asked. He has reasons and the grass wasn't so tall, so I said yes. He then, on Wednesday, texted me that he would either mow the grass himself on Thursday or pay a guy who has in the past mowed for us. I had texted Russ that I wasn't happy about it. I had cut him slack and now he was telling ME what He was going to do, rather than asking. I said if the grass weren't mowed by Thursday at dark and if I didn't have the $30 he was to pay on Friday for his cell phone and car insurance, he could stay somewhere else for the weekend.

The sponsor texted me back saying he was going to drop Russ as a sponsee. He said he didn't really want to try to get better at this point and he couldn't help him any further.

Russ had Facebooked that his Friday paycheck was supposedly 1/2 of what it should be because his employer left hours off it. (We later come to find out he forgot to clock in one day which delayed part of his pay one week). Anyway, Saturday before his AA meeting I told him that since he got a short paycheck Friday and did not pay me as promised, that I wasn't kicking out for the weekend. I also said that he should not go to the game store but instead, spend his time applying for that extra part-time job he needs.

He did not react well, he lowered his head and said very little. He walked out and went to his meeting, doing what I consider to be pouting. He got the meeting and his sponsor fired him. He then went into a funk posting on Facebook how bad things were and how he really needed a break from all the troubles he's having. He was cold as ice to me all day and still will be today. He's done this before and the last time it was when I wouldn't loan him money.

He spent what money he did have last week frivolously after having been advised repeated by me how to do better than that. His sponsor basically told me that Russ was acting like a child and testing the waters to see how little he can get by with, a long time pattern for him.

Well, thing around here aren't pleasant and I'm tolerating less and less of his crap. Put his depression, anxiety, ADD and so forth aside and just understand that his main mode of behavior right now is oppositional and he is resisting doing the things he needs to recover.

He's a dry drunk and has what they call stinking thinking in AA. Friends at Alanon shared with us Friday night that the Salvation Army really isn't all that bad. They get a bed, food and are allowed to stay something like 45 days. Many of them have been through similar with their children and the were helpful.

Russ's thinking is skewed. He is upset with me over something I said a month ago, which I really didn't handle well. But he hasn't shared that with me, he told his mother. He resents me telling him what to do. I often, like Saturday, tell him what has to happen "or you can do it your way but you will have to move out." This pisses him off. He really believes a lot of the stuff that goes on in his head. He's angry even at the people who try the hardest to help him. One of them has now let him go, his sponsor, and I don't know how much longer I will be able to tolerate his disease residing in our home. It is not a good situation. While his thinking is skewed, I can't let that be a reason for him to jeopardize my and his mom's sanity. And, it is affecting us physically and emotionally.

Thanks for listening

Seren

I am sorry for what you and your family find yourselves going through. I don't doubt at all that it is affecting your health at this point.

If your son is angry, well, that is his reaction--there is nothing you can do to reason someone out of being angry. Plus, an active addict will always spin their own story so that they are never at fault.

Let me ask you this: Would you actually send your son packing if he doesn't follow your rules?

jonbald

I guess it's like parenting a child. You can't be their friend, sometimes you have to be tough and let them be mad at you.

I kicked him out of the house at 18 because he refused to get out of the house and get a job and wasn't going to college. It is harder to get to that point now, but yes at some point I may have to kick him out. We are trying to do what we can to avoid that, and I hope it doesn't come to that. The plan is for him to work part-time while working on getting his disability benefits and then move out. But, that is going to be another year at least and if he's going to live with us he has to live by our house rules, which were clearly defined when he got out of rehab. He's not drinking and has been dry for 3 months. He defined himself as sober for 3 months yesterday on Facebook and all his friends cheered him on and congratulated him profusely. I, however, commented, "Congratulations of being dry for 3 months." To which he replied "Wow." So, I'm not sure if he was being grateful that I actually said something nice to him or if he realized what I was saying and was being sarcastic. Dry and sober aren't the same thing and he isn't sober. He's unhappy and not working the AA program.

kittycat3

It seems to me for your sanity it might be time to detach? Ie stay away from him on FB and stay out of the weeds with how he executes his chores.....as long as the lawn gets mowed you should let go of the way he goes about it.
Same with his program, you can't force him to be gratefully working AA vs being a dry drunk - it all might be true but you seem to be stuck in this lock step pattern.
Personally, I wouldn't give him free passes for the mistakes he makes with forgetting to clock in - he needs to remember to do that and if he doesn't suffer consequences what will motivate him to make changes?

jonbald

It is difficult to detach while he's living with us and we have not come to the point of kicking him out and making him homeless. He agreed to house rules when we agreed to let him stay with us after rehab. And, I have a right to expect a certain level of behavior in my house. Regarding being involved in his recovery, you are probably right. But he talks about how miserable he is and his sponsor and I have been trying to work with him to help him get on the right path. His sponsor fired him because he immediately broke his commitment. He said he isn't wanting to get better yet and he can't do anything with you. This guy has been his sponsor a long time and he got to his wit's end too. It's also hard to not put gas in his tank when he runs out of money, so he can get to work. Even though it's his fault he squandered his money. The natural consequence of that would be he'd have to walk to work I guess. Don't want him to lose his job . It's all hard.

ScottFromWI

Sorry you are going through this Jon, and it is hard. But the bottom line is that you are enabling all of his behavior, plain and simple. You will simply have to learn to live with him on HIS terms unless you decide to change your behavior. There is literally nothing you can do or will be able to do to get him to quit drinking. He has no reason to - he knows his needs will always be met by you and your wife and he has no need to "get better". You always bail him out so he can simply continue to live on his own terms with no repercussions.

Yes it's hard, but you've been living this way for years and years and he has zero incentive to change.

jonbald

Thanks for the perspective. To clarify, he isn't drinking He goes to meetings. What he is doing is being passive aggressive just like when he was a teen. He does the least he can to get by and is not completely following the house rules he agreed to upon leaving rehab. He has shown some progress, but there is a lot of ill will between us right now. From me because he continues those little behaviors that push my buttons. From him because he can sense how upset I am with him. We're doing Alanon and online Families Anonymous and NAMI (National Association for the Mentally Ill)

Sometimes I think that those coming from the 12 step arena only see things in the light of "normal" alcoholics, rather than factoring in the mental illness which complicates matters. On the other hand, there comes a point when the mental illness can no longer be used as an excuse to not care for one's self. Knowing when is the hard part and that is what we are working on, not whether to kick him out, but when to kick him out.

ScottFromWI

You've been trying to figure this out for a long time, years actually. What do you think it will take for you to make the decision? You mentioned you and your wife would really like to be enjoying your retirement years instead of taking care of your adult alcoholic son. What if you wait until it's too late?

Perhaps you and your wife need to sit down and really decide when to do this ( Kick him out ). Because he will never change until you do - it's been almost a decade based on your posts here on SR.

And also be prepared - because the second you tell him you are actually going to kick him out, he will magically start changing his tune...and he might even start behaving for a short period of time, but you will have to be stern and follow through. He's a master of manipulating you to get what he wants, and it's worked for a long time...so don't think he won't try some tricks when the writing is actually on the wall.

jonbald

He would be out now if it were just a matter of being an alcoholic. Some time back a friend suggested he look into disability because they'd seen the problems he'd had with mental illness and keeping a job. I mentioned it to him and he thought about it. Although it hurt his pride and he wasn't really happy about the thought of being on disability he said he thought it might be wise considering he'd been through 14 jobs in a couple years. So, I encouraged him to look into disability.

That takes a minimum of 1-1.5 years to go through the process of getting approved and during that time you are not allowed to make enough money to sustain yourself.

So, I am faced with the choice of going back on my word of suggesting the disability and making him give up his process and fend for himself.

It looks simple but it's not. And believe me, I've come very close to kicking him out several times. And, that may happen still, but hopefully, I will know when the time is right.

And, there are some differences now from the earlier posts you read. This time, he went to rehab on his own. This time, he is cooperating to some extent, just not to the level that I want.

jonbald

Here's a brief update for everyone who followed this thread. I've joined a group similar to Alanon called Families Anonymous. I have a sponsor and do daily E-mail meetings. Once a week I do a computer networked meeting where we actually talk to each other. We have no F2F meetings where I live.

My son's sponsor fired him because he wouldn't try to get better. He crapped out on a therapy plan he had with a new therapist. He's not working at all, I'm not sure where he gets what little money he has.

We've told him he needs to be out by March 1, 2017. I gave him a one-page detailed letter explaining lots of things and telling him what we will and will not allow. We have clear boundaries. He still is sleeping and playing games at the Hobby Store. If he's looking for a job it beats me. There's nothing we can do for him.

I am working the program best I can to cope with this, but I cry almost daily. I'm having to release him to whatever may happen and I know it doesn't always work out good. I will muddle my way through it.

Seren

jonbald, I'm so sorry to hear that your son continues to make poor decisions. It really is just so heartbreaking, isn't it?

Your recovery program sounds like it is working really well for you, and I hope it continues.

You may need to remind him a few times as his deadline nears. I know my stepson simply did not believe his father was serious about having him out of the house because there had been so many prior deadlines when nothing was actually done.

Mr. Seren gave his son a deadline, told him that he would provide the apartment deposit and assist with rent for 3 months if "Jr." stayed sober, had a job, did not get in trouble with the law. The weekend of the deadline, my stepson was arrested for crack possession and lost his job for not showing up while in jail...Mr. Seren still made him leave. It was very emotional, confrontation, and awful, frankly.

Sending prayers and best wishes for continued clarity and strength.

S

jonbald

Seren,

Thank you for your compassionate words. Your story is terrible and I'm so sorry you had to experience that. This disease sucks the big one.