Spacegoat

Well now, there's a thread title that will send a lot of people running the other way. Apparently it's that, I dunno. Happened to me a few times anyway. No big deal is it? To my parents its not.

When I think of it in the context of my own children though, really it is. It's beyond weird, at best. I've been reading about 'Fear of Intimacy'. Realised I had that a long time ago, apparently it's related.

The only intimate or 'real' relationship I feel I have ever had was with my son, but thats over now. I'm curious as to how else those events may have affected my devolopment, or lack of, if at all? Again, I dunno.

Our experiences in childhood affect us today on some level that we aren't necessarily consciously aware of is that right? I dunno, I believe that. I got some serious issues with my mother and always have done, I'l say that.

Latte

PTSD, - not just reserved for soldiers, sailors and Marines anymore. The traumatic events that we go through can definitely cause PTSD.

For me it was being sexually assaulted. I used to escape any feelings related to that trauma. Once I got help, it got better. I still have difficulty being intimate in some situations. Luckily I now have a very supportive partner but my ex-husband never knew-I never gave him that chance. I just self medicated for most of our marriage.

Bottom line is that there is help! Getting off the crazy train was my first step.

Spacegoat

Your comment kinda threw me off track earlier, although I can relate to it. Sorry to hear of your experience. I had a pretty traumatic adolescence actually. More often than not, every day was traumatic in some way.

That was in the home. Outside of it, there were also some very traumatic incidents. Although, I have reconciled the part I played in those. I didn't have much choice. You are right, I could well have been suffering from PTSD...

I know that I have never been the same person since. When I had a nervous/mental breakdown the doctors said it was from stress, and that I was self medicating. But, we didn't really go into any of that historical stuff in any depth.

Dee74

I really hope you can lay your past down one day Strat. You deserve not to carry all this around.

I had a little counselling for various things. It helped

D

JustAYak

It's kind of a big deal Stratman...at least I think so. I guess it is what you make of it, in some ways, but while you may not realize it, in many many ways it has affected your development, your relationships with others, your personality, etc.

While I was never sexually abused, I was abused in pretty horrible ways physically and mentally. My therapist has explicitly said I was tortured at one point...but I don't think of it that way. What I do recognize is that I am not a care-free, happy-go-lucky guy and that I trust very very little in my life. I am quiet, I am reserved, which isn't really a bad thing on it's own, but combined with trust issues it's like living in a box with invisible walls where you can watch everyone else but can't speak to them. The abuse I endured has made it near impossible to feel a connection with others and my relationships suffer because of it. Other things about me are just that I don't like to be touched...you know how some people are really into hugs and cuddling and whatever? No way. Not me. Touch was never something positive for me as a child so I can't see it as positive now. It's unsafe to me and dangerous.

My therapist once made me write a list of rules/guidelines/"facts" from childhood that I've carried over in to my adulthood, even the most ridiculous ones. There were quite a few more than these, and I don't have that list in front of me, but I remember some of them:

The obvious ones:
1) People will only touch me because they hate me.
2) Don't speak unless spoken to.
3) Trust no one; they will only stab you in the back.
4) Do not talk to neighbors.

The not so obvious ones:
4) Your bed, dresser, and clothing are the ONLY things that should be in your room
5) Do not leave your backpack or shoes on the floor.
6) Do not eat anything without asking (i.e. don't eat).
7) Do not shower at night.

I still follow the last four to this day, with the exception of the food one being only at other people's houses (in which case it's just common courtesy)... if I do not follow them I get anxious about it. If I get home from work and take my shoes off and leave them there, I will take two steps into my hallway, turn around and immediately come back and put them in the closet...I am trained...and my dad has been dead for six years.

Can you come up with your own rule list?

I know I suffer from PTSD due to my parents' abuse. I am also a schizophrenic, which may have ties to childhood abuse, but the jury (research) is still out on that. I can't say "I've never been the same person since" because I don't know who that person would be...there is no "since" for me. However, because you say this, it leads me to believe that you did (or do) suffer from PTSD...but that is really for a doctor to decide. And suffer might be the wrong word, but it sounds like it's affecting you in someway, perhaps not severely so. What has happened to you isn't okay whether you're in anguish over it or not, though. I think it would be of benefit to talk it out with someone (professionally)...

chicory

(((Jay))) I have noticed how getting professional help has seemed to help you. I hope that others who are suffering will be encouraged by your growth.

Spacegoat

Thanks for the considered response Yak. I appreciate at it. I have been trying to respond all day, it's hard work.

I can relate to every single word of that. I always tried to maintain an upbeat, optimistic appearance and attitude but I've been failing more and more over the years as my drinking and frustrations have increased. And yet the fact remains. I've pretty much isolated myself for the past decade now.

Those rules are interesting, I get what you mean. There were similar things, I definitely grew up in a controlling environment where there was domestic violence and abuse 24/7, the whole spectrum. And often I was summoned to bear witness, or otherwise manipulated emotionally and mentally by it.

I'm talking about my adolescence now. Anyway, eventually I rebelled against it all. I felt compelled as the oldest to do something. Took a lot of beatings, week in, week out but. So yeah, I am generally rebellious to a sense of being manipulated or controlled. By a partner, or a family member etcetera.

Now that I think of it thats probably why I didn't get along so well with the mental health services. I thought they were just trying to control me. Don't do this, not allowed have that - like I said, being manipulated or controlled (or abused) by the people I am supposed to trust is all I really know about.

Was reading about PSTD there. Yeah, that is interesting. I have definitely witnessed a lot of violence and abuse over the years, and it was definitely traumatic. My earliest memory is a particularly traumatic domestic violence incident. At least thats how I remember it, blood everywhere and then some cops.

PurpleKnight

I think things in our childhood definitely can influence parts of who we are, the trick I guess is to not let them hold us back or influence things too much, letting go and getting help if needed!!

In my own life, my dad was an alcoholic, and I found things like Al-Anon and Alateen very helpful to do just that!!

JustAYak

I was like that too when I first started therapy. Even though I was the one who chose to go into therapy for myself, boy have I made her work for every piece of information she has about me. I have tested her at every turn, gotten mad at her, walked out in the middle of a session, and have said next to nothing for an entire hour... she has more patience than any one I know and most of all she doesn't react to me in a bad way, she only seems to react with compassion or empathy for what I have been through. I have tried my hardest to turn her off from me, to get her to "fire" me as her client, to prove to myself that everybody leaves and I'm just a piece of **** that nobody will ever care about, but she hasn't proven me right yet. She seems to get where I'm coming from and that's what I need.

If I'm being honest, I think therapy is a sort of manipulation...but a healthy one, if that makes sense. I have something I wrote in my blog on here a month ago, about something she did during a session for me that was a type of manipulation...but it was necessary for me to break the surface into things that I never would have otherwise and if I don't talk about them then I will never have a fighting chance to heal from them. I'm not going to say it was a "breakthrough" or that we made headway - we didn't. BUT it's a start, a very very small step forward which is usually followed by 500 steps back, but that's how it works for me. She gets that...

While I'll probably never be done "testing" her (and I'll be completely honest here, sometimes I find joy in watching her squirm, it helps me to see that she doesn't have all the power in this relationship like my parents did), they have become less and less (she has told me so) as I am more trusting and willing to open up a bit with her. This doesn't mean I'm going to go off and bare my soul to the next stranger I meet...I think "progress not perfection" is the tag line to my life.

I'm confident that if you try a few therapists out, you could find one that you click with and that actually really understands that there's a time to ask questions and time to keep your trap shut so the "client" (us) doesn't get scared off or angry with confrontation. Some therapists are awful and push and push... don't let it discourage you. Find a different one. For me it came to point where if I didn't let go and accept help from someone, then I was going to die by my own hand. Right now, I think that it would have been a shame to take my life at 17, 18, 19, 20 and beyond (I'm 23 now)... I still have a lot of work to do, but I am happy to report that there is progress.

JustAYak

This is just an excerpt from that blog I wrote, that I was talking about in my previous post. The "manipulation" I was referring to is her use of silence. She seems to pick and choose when to be silent and ruffle my feathers a bit... (this is probably all in my head but it's how it appears to me). I use a sort of metaphor about drowning to describe it...

The "swim to save myself" refers to me having to say something about the issue at hand and that I can't just continue to say nothing because then I will "drown"...it makes more sense in context, I guess.

The whole blog, if you're so inclined:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html

Iconoclastic

Recent stats indicate that 1 out of 5 girls and 1 out of 20 boys have been sexually abused in childhood.

Self-report studies show that that 20% of adult females and 5 to 10% of adult males recall a childhood sexual assault or sexual abuse incident. Sometimes psychotherapy helps recall latency.

Among addicts there's a high % of childhood sexual abuse. This can also involve psycho-sexual abuse, where children are shamed by being taught that their natural sexual instincts are sinful. Certain religious denominations teach these toxic ideas.

I've listened to numerous 5th Steps over the years and the vast majority involved shame based sexual secrets.

Suicide is the leading cause of death among Gay and Lesbian youth nationally (USA).

Spacegoat

Thats the thing Purpleknight, they never were big drinkers really. Not by our standards!

Just like abusive, manipulative, disinterested etc. I've had a hard time making sense of it.

I dunno guys, been reaching out for help for almost half my life. "I'm angry" apparently.

JustAYak

My mom wasn't an addict and she was neglectful, manipulative, etc... my dad was an addict and he was abusive in a much more physical way. Addiction doesn't make people abusive, imo. Perhaps it is because I'm an (recovered) addict and I'm not abusive that I think this way...but my personal opinion is that if you're an abuser, the trait is already there, but sometimes addiction makes it explode more so than it would have naturally just because they don't think clearly. Then again, no abuser could be thinking clearly, right? I struggle with that, a lot of me thinks my dad was thinking perfectly clearly when he would strike me and that he just didn't care and wanted to hurt me.... there's a lot I still don't know, get, or understand. But the bottom line for me is that I need someone's help to get to the point where *maybe* I will understand and/or make peace with it somehow.

Stratman, I have to admit, your "angry" in quotations kind of made me chuckle for a minute. I have been told I'm angry a few different times... I said, "Do I look angry? I sure don't feel angry." I did find out eventually that yeah, even though I may not feel it or look it most of the time, anger is there, way way under the surface. On rare occasions it will rear it's ugly head, but most of the time I just float through life without feeling much of anything at all...it's a blankness or a numbness. We were taught this when we were abused because expression of anything let the abuser "win." If I cried out because my dad kicked me, it would result in him kicking me harder. So I resolved to not doing any of this, just taking it by being quiet and knowing it would be over sooner if I didn't express anything at all. So by our standards, we're not angry. We don't look angry and we don't feel angry, but it's been so long since we felt anything that we don't know how to recognize that we're angry. We are...we just don't know it, or we're too scared to know it, in a sense.

This numbness also becomes the problem when trying to make some sort of connection with people...people generally connect by emotion, if you don't express any or "have" any then you tend to feel isolated because you're "different." You can't be happy or normal like all the other people you see and maybe you find yourself questioning "Why can't I be like them?" At least I know I asked myself that a lot. That, my friend, is anger trying to break the surface... the "why can't I?" question. So get angry about it. Get so angry and frustrated that you want to make a change and do something about it. Anger can be motivation, sometimes.

Spacegoat

Wow Yak I can really, really relate to that! And thank you btw, I'm learning a lot from your comments. I know what you mean by anger as motivation, believe me I do.

I used to drink, just to get angry, just to try to change things. Like go see a doctor etc. It became my only modality though, a habit of itself and thats not good at all

Spalding

Yeah, I second the anger thing. I've been told anger (in a healthy way, and reached in a healthy way) is actually a healthy thing. It means we are taking a spot in the world. Expressing that we feel something is wrong, and demanding it be noticed.

So often people discount anger, and reject and hide and try not to feel it. But often it's people who are trying to scoot away from their responsibility that want us not to be angry when we have right to be.

That, and being conditioned to fear anger and conflict. BUT, I think, maybe anger doesnt always need to equal conflict...Maybe that's a false association? Maybe someone can be angry and not express it in a conflictual way? Thoughts?

Soberpotamus

Stratman, I do hope you seek out and continue with a therapist. I don't have the sexual abuse in my past (not that I remember, anyway), but I can relate well to experiencing some violence in the home due to my mom's alcoholism. I also had a wicked stepmother for a while (until my Dad saw the light and divorced). My grandfather had quite a nasty temper and was a recovering alcoholic as well. So there were three scenarios of occasional violence along with all sorts of emotional manipulation running rampant throughout both sides of the family. Both my great-grandfathers were drinkers and probably alcoholics. My mom ended up overdosing on pills and dying. And there was a schizophrenic uncle who shot himself. Lovely, right?

I spent many years off and on with therapists, and got a degree in Psychology (not surprising) trying to figure it all out Was unsatisfied with Psychology's answers and went on to study Philosophy as well. Decided it didn't have all the answers either, lol.

I detached from the family and have mostly gone no contact, save for the occasional phone call or visit to my Grandfather and Dad. And that's tapered off since I got sober two years ago. I simply don't have any more energy left to spend on them, nor the desire. I hope they understand.

As for the anger that is below the surface... I relate. I have it. And probably have much more of it than I know, still. My mom hugged me once, and told me to "let go of some of this anger" inside. It's been really hard to do that. Because you must feel it first. And if you can feel it, you can feel all the other emotions as well. I've been able to do it in bits and pieces over time.

It is stored in the body for sure. It's physical. Trauma, anger, all those memories and emotions... stored in the mind as well as the body. At least, on some level anyway.

I am guessing it might take the rest of my life to work it all out And that's ok.

Stratman, just don't give up. Are you staying sober?

GracieLou

This sounds like my mother. I discovered a year ago about NPD, narcissistic personality disorder. I had found what I was looking for my whole life to explain her behavior.

You may want to check it out.

Iconoclastic

Re:>>> Maybe someone can be angry and not express it in a conflictual way? Thoughts?<<<

At one pole of communication stands passivity: not speaking out for fear of adverse consequences. At the other end stands aggressiveness: voicing negative sentiments without restraint or regard for their effect on others. In between passivity and aggression lies the golden mean: asserting one's thoughts and feelings, wants and needs, while at the same time showing appreciation and respect for the others viewpoint.

Spacegoat

I'm about as sober as I have ever been Jennie. But quite frustrated lately. It's my first conscious attempt at sobriety and certainly the first time I have been sober and not on a pink cloud. I read about that concept here, I agree with it.

To be honest, the sexual abuse I speak of is not something I've had major hangups about. However I did 'let it slip' once or twice to the lads when we were drinking together as teenagers. So it's always been in the back of my mind I guess.
It wasn't horrific or anything like that (sexual abuse is is a strong term, I know) but it is something I have always been confused about. My child is about the age now where it was happening to me so thats why I'm thinking about it again.

Since he was around 4 I have compared my life to his year on year in an effort to make sense of my own childhood. Not in the material sense, but there are so many memories and experiences I can recall that beg the question…
'WHERE WERE MY PARENTS MAN?'. As thats the question that keeps coming up for me. We lived in another country until I was about 10, so nobody can help answer it. I was unsupervised most of the time? Abandoned?? Neglected???
I dunno. What I do know though, I would come home from school most days and the house would be locked. I would be hungry, and confused. An Indian family down the street used to feed me quite often. There was no arrangement...
It was concious maneuvering on my part, the mother even had a go at me that I was using her son for that! She was right. Other days there would be a key left out for me, and other times still I was with the babysitter who was abusing me.

Other times too I would go back to another house, but mainly I was left to my own devices. I got picked up by the police a couple of times for causing mischief, other times I had my name and address taken (I didn't actually know the address). There was a public park across the road, a cool place with lots of swings and slides etc. I spent most of my time there, every day to be honest. I was sexually abused there also. Mostly it was teenagers in that place, well, around the perimeters.

Drinking, smoking, making out etc. I think they were grunge types. Sometimes the dudes were mean to me but generally were ok. I used to play 'kick the can' with them. I'l never forget the smell of patchuli from some of the girls though

Spacegoat

Another member told me to look that up, I wasn't sure in what context but I immediately thought of my mother. My question is, what happens next after that Gracie?

Is that an excuse or an explanation for her behavior? I firmly believed she was a pathological liar and really tried to help her with it. She doesn't want my help anyway.

I read here about gas-lighting and know for sure that she was doing that to me. She also has a history of fraud and theft, involving me in those things as a kid too also.

I'm not like that basically. Man, I really tried to help her out until I realised I was her latest victim and she was demonizing me to boot. It's been really rough, seriously.