Craaig

It’s a fact that I can’t conceive of not being—I mean really. Imagine how it would be not to be. Hell, I can’t even imagine how it is to be asleep. They can say, “You were asleep,” and even show me a Polaroid of me drooling on my dickie, and I have to say, “OK, thanks, but really, I don’t remember.” And that’s the point. I, we, can’t know what we don’t know.

I used to have alcoholic blackouts. I’ve done and said some pretty amazing things of which I have not even the vaguest recollection, and if there weren’t police reports and apoplectic fathers and those god-damned pictures, I would honestly say, “It wasn’t me.” This was explained to me years after my last drink like this: “You can have no recollection of events that took place when you were absent.”

If my presence at an event is necessary in order for me to recall being present for the event, and my attention to details of my participation is a condition of precise recollection of what went on and how I felt at the time and stuff like that, how am I to have any inkling of not being? Simple answer:___________(you fill it in.)

So what’s the big deal, here? Dying—eventually not being—is a fact of life, reality, nature, how it works, whatever. Oh, I understand the concerns about “What will happen to the kids” or my wife or my mom or the Giants, but addressing such considerations is part of the quotidian slog that makes some lives feel useful, but I’m asking about the quivering, gut-wrenching fear of not being. How can that be scary?

I love this couplet:Living has a simple plot: first you’re here, and then you’re not.

I’m pretty sure I know the answer, and it’s not a welcome one: The fear of death is the gift of religion, along with shame, self-disgust and sexual guilt. The bronze-age fabricators of our primary Western dogmas recognized that the pie-in-the-sky promises on offer to the believer didn’t really hold their attention too well. Yeah, yeah, celestial realms and eternal life and all, but (yawn)…. But if you want to pack the house and get some action, threaten their asses with eternal fire or a permanent float in the sucking void. Even the saintly grandmas will sit up and take notice if you imply that they might be able to beat that rap. But the key word has to be “might.” Give them a sure thing, and it’ll have the same impact as the Elysian Fields: bor-ing. But even the back row punks know how it feels to burn your arm on an exhaust manifold. Multiply that by, say, eternity, and imply that you might have a way to avoid that, and you’ve got acolytes galore.

One can’t fault religion for trying, and in large part succeeding in instilling the fear of death in us. After all, how can the lazy, imperfect and self-centered populace be induced to “do the right thing” without an incentive, albeit a negative one.

On the other hand, maybe we could just do the right thing because it feels good, and not worry about whether or not we’ll wake up.

Soberpotamus

Promises of singing with the angels in heaven worshipping God all the day long for eternity failed to impress me when I was a child. My one concern was that I'd feel trapped, given no choice in the matter. That felt kind of like a jail sentence to my 8 year old mind. Lol. I just didn't "get" the appeal.

Soberpotamus

“We accept reality so readily - perhaps because we sense that nothing is real.”
– Jorge Luis Borges

PurpleKnight

The skeptic would quote Karl Marx "Religion is the opium of the people", but regardless of the ins and outs of religion, the idea of mortality brings a certain urgency and excitement to life!!

Though during my drinking days, alcohol used to numb all of those benefits away, Sobriety has rekindled living life to the full!!

Soberpotamus

I agree, PK!

Boleo

Imagine what it would be like to live forever - Life would get boring after seeing it all, doing it all and after having been everywhere.

Imagine what it would be like to get everything we want - Life would be meaningless without challenges.

Imagine what it would be like to be omniscient - Life would be devoid of mystery, romance and adventure.

Thank G- (whatever runs the Universe) that we are imperfect. Perfection can't love perfection.

fini

butbutbut...i haven't found that i accept reality all that readily
at all!

Soberpotamus

Yeah, me either, Fini

whalebelow

Epicurus said

“Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.”

no body gets out of life ... alive.

Personally I think our "souls" get recycled, nature / the planet / the universe recycles absolutely everything else .... so why not our "life spark" or soul ?

Again, just my opinion, but life seems to lose it's sparkle for those souls that have been around a good many times.

I've accepted I just might be one of those souls ... I don't feel the lowest of lows, but I don't feel the highest of highs either.

I'm like a kid that has been on the same roller coaster 100 times.

But that's OK ... acceptance is the key to satisfaction. Satisfaction is the key to happiness.

CousinA

The title of this thread would be an awesome fake Buddha quote.

Ah impermanence... Ain't it grand?

-allan

Boleo

MesaMan

j/k

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Craaig

Well said.
cgc

samseb5351

The best answer I have ever heard about how a non believer would deal with death.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9vYdTZT79w

samseb5351

i see the link does not work. Go to youtube and Type in Neil De grasse. Tyson -answers on death.

awuh1

There is an assumption in this belief. You may believe that the assumption is true. You may believe that "not being" is the only rational conclusion that can be reached about death. But consider that according to this way of thinking, a person can never really know if there was something that follows death, because... (again the assumption) nothing follows it. Nobody can report otherwise, right?


So, this conclusion must be classified as a belief. Something that is believed to be true, rather than something that is known to be true. You may argue that there is ample evidence that the conclusion is correct. There is, after all, a lifeless and unresponsive body that quickly decays, no evidence at all of a surviving of consciousness.


So I must ask. What would it take to change your mind? What evidence would cause you to doubt this belief? Your own death, and the experience of something more?


Well, a vast majority of people who suffer a 'clinical death', and are later revived report no experience for the period of time when they were 'clinically' dead. But that's to be expected right? Their hearts have stopped and their brains were not getting oxygen. They are unconscious and are unable to form memories. Even if they had an experience, how could they remember it?


However, between 10 to 20% of people who have been clinically dead do remember something. In fact many of their experiences are quite similar. Some of them even report seeing what was going on around their then dead body. If there were just a handful of these cases it might be easy to dismiss them, but there are thousands. They have increased dramatically since the advent of CPR techniques in the 1960's.


I believe it's irrational to dismiss this evidence without investigating it. Here's a talk by one physician who has. The Reality of Near-Death Experiences and their Aftereffects - Jeffrey Long - YouTube

samseb5351

There is plenty of scientific evidence that explains NDE' s. And its science not anecdotal accounts of things. Read Oliver Sacks.
These are Near Death Experiences not I'm dead experiences. Anybody reading this needs to make up their own mind, my only suggestion is to follow the evidence towards the science not selectively make the evidence fit the view you already have. When you see a title like The Reality of NDE's then ask what reality is being claimed here, what is the evidence and conclusions from this.

awuh1

Could you point specifically to something Oliver Sacks has written? I'd like to "follow the evidence". I completely agree that people tend to make the evidence fit their own conclusions. I'd like to see what you are referring to. If it's not available online could you summarize it? I've never seen it.

Craaig

Virtually all the "evidence" for NDE's is anecdotal, as indeed it must be. Given the nature of the discussion, it seems to me that opinions concerning the value of the testimony on the subject reflects one's "old ideas," "faith," or skepticism — as is my posting, above. I have come to a place in my dotage that I reject nothing unequivocally, but tend toward acceptance of the least silly explanation. To me, supernatural is silly. I won't argue the point, but I may not be able to resist saying, "really?"

What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
— Christopher Hitchens

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.
If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic.
— Dr. Thomas Szasz

awuh1

Interesting quote from Mr. Szasz. Particularly in light of the fact that his most notable work is entitled "The myth of mental illness". (I did enjoy listening to him speak at a conference that I long ago attended, although I found him unpersuasive).

I do agree that the evidence for NDE's must be anecdotal, because controlled experiments would be completely unethical. This does not leave mush else except anecdotal accounts. All of which makes me wonder about the nature of the so called "scientific evidence" which people are referring to.

BTW, I would suggest that in labeling something "supernatural" you have already made a judgment.

I'm interested in talking about facts surrounding NDE's (not in generalizations or characterizations).

For example, there are many accounts from people who have reported what was happening, and what was being said, during a period of time when they were clinically dead. In the video which I referenced above, there is the claim of a patient who reported the serial number on a resuscitation device. I'm not familiar with this specific example (though I'm looking forward to hearing more about it) but these reports are not unusual. I would appreciate any information or theoretical understanding of this phenomenon (i.e. explaining the accurate accounts of reality by then clinically dead individuals).

In fact I'm looking forward to it.