samseb5351

Thats a harder question to answer as I tap on my keyboard then I thought, and I would love to hear peoples ideas with this.
We all at some time probably end up saying things like "as long as he/she is sober thats all that matters" But does it matter??
All I know at this point Reality or at least an attempt to find out whats real is a the main focus point of my own recovery, my life is way more rich and robust because of this focus. For me it is the method (basically a critical thinking stance or scientific method) that makes my life so interesting Not set in stone Conclusions on reality.

fini

does reality matter in recovery?

depends on what you mean by 'reality' and 'matter', Sam.

playing

for me, it matters. greatly.

in AA, sometimes alcoholism is described as a 'disease of perception', and while i'm often on the fence about how real a 'perception' is as compared to 'reality' (okay, i'm not really going there), being in touch with the reality of my alcoholism is where my sobriety rests.

but i'm not sure, really, what 'reality' you're talking about.

the other 'reality' that matters greatly to me is the...uh...one counter to the fantasy-spinning i can do in my head.

samseb5351

Yes there was a concern when I titled the Thread with that question, we are at risk becoming lost in a philosophical conundrum. I think the way you phrased it Fini is what I am getting at but more the "counter to fantasy-spinning" I guess my question is maybe better phrased as what is demonstrably True, testable with sufficient evidence and open to question.

dwtbd

But is there more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in our philosophy?
It seems hard to wrest philo from the whole ball or wax.
Are you exploring a quantity v quality , kinda thing?

fini

well, without getting into a philosophical conundrum, i'll put it this way: there are facts, facts which are demonstrable.
then, there are interpretations of those facts, ways of seeing them, ways of ascribing 'meaning' to them.

as far as recovery, here is an example: there was a woman who drank frequently, repeatedly, ha! religiously for many years. she drank after she had decided not to. she drank after making commitments not to. she did this for decades, knowing she had a problem with alcohol, wanting to quit, struggling to quit and returning to drinking every time despite commitments, decisions, resolutions.
one day, she woke up, and had her morning coffee with her hangover. "Damn!" it flashed into and through her, "damn it i'm a goddamn DRUNK!"

haven't had a drink since.

what is demonstrably true in this 'story' is no different in the first part from the second.
the evidence was the same. all the facts were the same. was "the truth" the same? the "reality"?

my understanding of the reality and truth of being a drunk and the meaning it had/has to me entirely changed something such that it was a turning point.

the demonstrable facts were the same, but the "truth" was not

no matter what you make of this, you can see why i say oh yes truth and reality matter in recovery.

RaiseAnchor

Though I never think we really completely lose touch with reality, when i drank it was some form of escapism. I had to face the reality that the only way sobriety will work is by completely abstaining from alcohol. With that sobriety also came real emotions and other problems I was running from when I spent my nights getting drunk. I think sobriety is rather black or white. I don't believe in the grey areas like "dry drunk" for example. Not drinking (in my case) is the only way to stay sober. This is not to say that I don't believe that there are different methods that can help and reinforce us to not drink.

For a time though, yes I had to give my sobriety my 100% and give myself a break. I had to be patient with myself, and forgive myself and realize that life can get better. I had to realize I could only proverbially escape for so long before I would find myself in a situation my body or mind couldn't actually handle. Instead of thinking about how I was going to stay sober, I really started to focus on why I was going to stay sober.

Altoids

This

Altoids

I think it matters. If nothing else, this person is another day away from the poison so their brain is healing from that. THAT matters.

LBrain

Maybe I'm missing something or this is just uber deep or something.

I recall a t-shirt from way long ago that read, 'Reality is for people who can't handle drugs. '

anattaboy

As I am the only observer in this experiment, I can say that I notice reality and cause/effect more sober and have more options in shaping my life.

LBrain

I just realized anattaboy is someone else using the same avatar. am I right? did you change your name?

anattaboy

yes I was reisingwood1.

silentrun

That's pretty much what happened to me. All of a sudden my perspective changed. I felt a flush come over me. I have been digging around and think these moments of clarity might be some type of stress response. I have had it happen a couple of times and each time I was in severe emotional distress. I get brought to the breaking point then something inside my brain responds chemically and I find myself with a whole new way of looking at things.

SparkyMcSparky

Brain, I'm a pretty smart philosopholyic type of guy, and I'm a little stumped too here.

In re-reading the OP about 8 times, is the question better phrased as:

"Is understating the reality of who one is and their situation essential in a recovery from addiction?"

So, can I recover if I do not state that I'm an alcoholic? I can just simply abstain as part of my recovery, regardless of reality?

A very interesting question, though I would suggest that whenever one uses an adjective or defining noun to describe anything other than the physical properties of themselves or another person (and not even 100% here either), then it is always perception. Empiricism very rarely applies to people.

And if I understood the OP correctly, then I would state, yes, "reality" does matter in recovery.

One does not necessarily need to label themselves a drunk to be realistic. To acknowledge one drinks too much (easily empirically proven based on health guidelines) is a key component in recovery. One could argue that getting to the facts (reality) that causes the empirically observed behaviour is equally important in seeking a recovery. i.e.:
- I was brought up in a home where alcoholism was present
- I was brought up in a home where the parents did not fulfill basic parental duties
- I was brought up in a home where various forms of abuse took place
- This environment has caused me to have difficulties with emotion, either expressing or releasing it
- This inability to adequately deal with emotion has caused clinically diagnosed anxiety and depression
- Because of these uncomfortable feelings, and not learning a healthy way to deal with them, I drank to escape them, and to reduce inner turmoil
- Alcohol was the approach I chose, as it was the main behaviour modeled in the home I grew up in

If I hide from this "reality", then I will likely relapse as the fundamental root cause has not been addressed. And even if I do not relapse, I have not truly recovered, as I have not repaired the broken bits - I've just put the Band-Aid of abstention on them.

silentrun

I'd like to refer the prophet The Who in Tommy#21 where it is written











I'm free, I'm free
And freedom tastes of reality
I'm free, I'm free
And I'm waiting for you to follow me

If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high
You'd laugh and say, "Nothing's that simple"
But you've been told many times before
Messiahs pointed to the door
No one had the guts to leave the temple

I'm free, I'm free
And freedom tastes of reality

I'm free, I'm free
And I'm waiting for you to follow me

How can we follow?
How can we follow?

samseb5351

I suppose I should be a little clearer on my original question, that dam word "reality" can be like a mine field sometimes. I think what I was getting at, is it important to remain open to and active in changing ones mind in recovery. Things like regular skepticism of your own conclusions on things, regular challenges to ideas and beliefs. Sometimes in my recovery I was so sure of things that the confidence of Knowing ended up just being ignorance shielded by arrogance (see my letter to bob in the skeptics guide to recovery thread) It wasn't until I actually contemplated my own conclusions and use socratic questioning at Myself that I began to see just how much of my so called "confidence" had no solid evidence.
The points about the Reality of our addiction itself are worth discussing to of course. However even then when I sat back and looked at what I call my "recovery script'" there was much diversion from reality there too. The need to paint the ugliest face possible on my gambling addiction ended up being a hedging of the truth, we just seem to that without much thought, I cherry picked my worst times with gambling and blew them up to a cartoonish image of my addiction and the only reason I can think of why I did that was to demonize and create a target. There is always this idea in my mind that if I called my relationship with gambling anything other than absolute vile dysfunction My mind would take advantage of that and have me gambling again. I found the opposite to be true, and for me the cartoonish vision was a fear based fragile one, a more neutral view of my gambling today helps way more.

LBrain

...is it important to remain open to and active in changing ones mind in recovery. (?)
Absolutely. And also, in every aspect of life regardless of what or who you may be.

silentrun

It sounds like you are describing some kind confirmation bias. It's a normal thing to do. When I caught myself doing it I started to learn how to use it to help me. Having your script change is a good thing.

Soberpotamus

Well put It happened for me a bit like this.

fini

one day, she woke up, and had her morning coffee with her hangover. "Damn!" it flashed into and through her, "damn it i'm a goddamn DRUNK!"


hi silentrun,

i tell it like that sometimes (the way i did here in my post) in real life, f2f. and i can call it a moment of clarity, or a moment of grace. both these descriptions are "true". i don't know where or how a moment like that arises, but in my own example i wasn't any more or less stressed than usual, not at any breaking point that i hadn't been at with drinking/staying quit for many years already.
i don't ascribe it to a chemical response. more to...hm...an openness to seeing differently. a shift. a previously closed curtain ripping open. well, that's how it felt. is this chemical? i can't say no, but i won't say yes.

last time i told that 'story' in person f2f, someone asked me: "and do you take credit for that?"

what a question!