Gargery

I posted a while back about this in the alcoholism forum: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...covery-aa.html I got some helpful responses, but I thought I might try again here, in hope of more. (Moderators, feel free to delete if this is against the rules.)

Long story short, I live with ASPD, and have for my entire life. You can read more about antisocial personality disorder in wikipedia or on google, if you are unfamiliar with it. The common, derogatory name for people like myself is psychopath. I don't consider it a disadvantage (quite the opposite, most of the time) or a disability, but it does present some issues for the alcoholic in recovery. I've really struggled with the 12-steps, and although I am still trying, I'm relatively certain this work will not provide me with any benefits. I'm on my second attempt at working the AA program with a sponsor I like, but stymied by the creation of a personal inventory. It just doesn't seem meaningful to me, as a person who doesn't have fears or resentments, and for whom sex is not integrated into my emotional life.

I would be very interested to hear from folks with ASPD who have gone through twelve-step programs, or their friends and families. I recognize that sociopaths are viewed with hatred and distrust by others, and most everyone has a horror story or two about their psychopathic wife, boyfriend, family member etc. I'd still like to hear your stories. I will also answer questions about what this sort of life is like, if you have any. Rest assured, you won't hurt my feelings by being blunt.

Resolv

Hello Gargery, If AA isn't working for you check out LifeRing.org. A support group nothing like AA. Resolv

Gargery

Looks interesting. I'm actually going to an AA meeting in a few minutes, but will read more when I return. I like AA, and most of the time, I feel it IS working, but the difficulties I've encountered seem to be unusual and I'm curious about the experience of others.

trachemys

Psych 101 syndrome. Just read up on ASPD and I've got it. According to what I read, so does half the population.

Gargery

Heh heh. You might. I've read that about 4% of the population does. I think our numbers are overblown though because encounters or relationships with ASPD folk tend to be memorable and often unpleasant, and because many people assume every ***hole they encounter must be a sociopath.

DoubleBarrel

I think that my addiction made me a sociopath.
I feel more empathy now.
I don't know how much I'm supposed to feel. But I do know that emotions became much more real in longer term sobriety.
You have no fears or resentments? So why not make the list? Maybe you will learn something about yourself.

Nocturnal

I've been antisocial all my life I pretty dropped out of school in the 5th grade my first year in public schools formally I dropped out in 11th grade I only made it that far because my teaches kept passing me so they wouldn't have me in their class another year people have insulted me and denegrated me because of my nature I never cared what people thought and still don't possibly im a sociopath thats something to consider because I've actually been run out of town just because I don't socialize with anybody I really don't feel bad about that because that town is run by drug addicts and whores does that sound sociopathic? Not socializing with people like that or caring what they think of me?

Sbforever

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Sbforever

o.k

Sbforever

You "have" the real thing? have you ever read this ?

Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work is a book by industrial psychologist Paul Babiak and psychopathy expert Robert D. Hare. The text was published by HarperBusiness on May 9, 2006.

http://www.mtpinnacle.com/pdfs/psycophaths-at-work.pdf

I read about 130 pages of it a wile back.

Is that really how it works you just can't feel guilt or shame or anything like that ?

And the question I really wanted to ask is can you spot other sociopaths better than "regular" people ?

Hawks

Sounds to me like you have already prejudged what good the steps could do you and you seem to wear your diagnosis with pride.

Check out a talk by a guy called Wayne B (Insane Wayne) on the XA Speakers website.

Diagnosed an irreversible psychopath in his teens, institutionalised 17 times, he found salvation in the 12 Steps.

Gargery

Guilt certainly not, but remorse and regret for sure. There are lots of situations I wish I had handled differently, and times when I clearly should have made different choices. When I apologize, it is genuine, even if I don't feel guilty about what I did. I apologize frequently and promptly, and forgive offense against me instantly. You see, there are advantages to this.

As for the book, I have not read it, and can't comment specifically on it. The title sounds like a few others I have: many are little more than self-help books for people looking to blame ASPD sufferers for X, Y, and Z problems in their own lives.

Finally, yes: I think I can spot sociopaths easily that others miss: many, if not most politicians are. I was at a fundraiser yesterday , met a congressional candidate for the first time, and had him pegged as a (clumsy) chameleon right away. I see some among celebrities and many in business: particularly the tech sector. Bill Gates, the world's most generous philanthropist, comes to mind, as does the more prototypical Jobs. Certainly Clinton and Reagan were. Not sure about others.

Gargery

Everyone prejudges everything, or at least I do. I'm working the steps, and have made a conscious decision to do my best - if my own experience doesn't match that of others, it isn't a big deal. I'm hardly unique, and this program has helped millions of people just like me. The book repeats ad nauseam that willingness and honesty are necessary and I use those as my touchstones.

That said, I take no pride in my diagnosis, but wouldn't change my condition if I could. You can understand my reluctance, I'm sure.

Sbforever

The only place I really spotted any sociopaths in action was in the criminal "justice" system.

I don't see how anyone with the capacity to feel guilt could possibly work in those court buildings.

All day long screwing people over who didn't actually harm anyone at all, people who committed so called "crimes" with no victims.

Like that young single mother who owed thousands of $ over petty DMV violations starting with getting pulled over for some bogus "violation", expired stickers of some sort and the whole thing snowballed in time into a complete nightmare as she was unable to pay and continued to use her car to take care of her family best she could and get to work only to be pulled over again.

I was just sitting there in disbelief watching this waiting for my turn to get "justice" (robbed) watching them inflict more pointless emotional and financial pain on this poor young woman showing no emotion at all, none.

That's sociopathy, do you really think you have the real thing ?

Gargery

I thought I would just post a little update on myself, which would also serve to bump the topic, as I would still appreciate the views of others with experience about sociopaths and AA or other recovery programs. Please PM me if you aren't comfortable posting here.

Three months later, this inventory is still a bother. I decided to stop entirely for a while, and then took it back up again about two months ago. It still isn't done, and it hasn't provided me with any beneficial insights. I've spent a long time now trying to catalog and examine my fears, resentments and harms done to others, and it just seems meaningless navel gazing. However, there comes a time when one should just shut up and do as one is told. And besides, even if the inventory yielded no interesting self-knowledge or spiritual progress, it still had to be done. I've chosen to believe that being "willing" means swallowing my qualms and objections and proceeding as best I can, even if I am unable to see how I benefit. I trust my sponsor, a cagey old bastard, who might not have an inkling of what my emotional life is like, but knows a lot more about working the program and being happily sober.

happybeingme

Thank you for bumping this thread and sharing an update. I have no real world experience with psychopathy but do find it and other personality disorders fascinating.

I have to confess that based on my limited knowledge of what you have I dont see much point in you doing a personal inventory. At the end of the day you just dont care. So, why bother? You became an alcoholic because of your brain's inability to use serotonin. If I remember what I read. Its in your nature to go to extremes with no concern of consequences.

Have you read Dr. James Fallon's The Psychopath Inside? It is a great read. One part science one part auto biography.

How long have you struggled with alcoholism and what made you decide to quit?

mfanch

I am ASPD with many NPD traits. I wanted to quit drugs and alcohol for good but always went back to them. Somehow I ended up in AA.

I had to stop thinking about the step work and decide to just do it.....to prove to them that it wouldn't work for me. I said that I would do what they told me for one year and show them that the steps would not work for me.

Today, 5 years clean off the needle and bottle, I don't believe in the steps, but I continue to do them and live them because they work for me. I will admit that I am happier and more integrated into society than I was. And there is a host of behaviors and perceptions that I no longer have. So it has helped my entire personality and outlook, not just to stay clean.

I think it's harder for us. We don't have the same aversion to pain and consequences as others and can tolerate a high amount of suffering. The hard part to working the steps is that we have to stop HURTING others (related to our ASPD) and actually be of service to them.

There is probably a higher percentage of people with PDs in 12-step programs, anyway. My core group of peeps are a lot like me. And I like it. We can talk freely about what is banging around in our brains and relate/laugh about it.

"Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change." (BB 84)

Gargery

Thanks, mfanch. I think I'm reaching some of the same conclusions about the steps: I don't believe they will work for me the same as they have for many folks I've seen, but to give myself the best chance, I need to work and rework them.

Like a lot of relatively new AAs, I was really hoping for life-changing realizations and epiphanies regarding myself, but the reality is that change is slow, accretive, unspectacular and requires a great deal of mental effort at what seem like unrewarding tasks. Still, I can't deny that I've experienced some positive results.

I suppose it can only work if you work it.

Gargery

I haven't read that one. I'll add it to my wish list. I've been reading up some on ASPD because I find the pathology butts up against recovery so frequently. Self-analysis isn't something I usually indulge in.

My drinking story is utterly typical, nothing you haven't heard a thousand times: new house, new town, new job, lots of free time. I started drinking merely too much about six years back, and drank daily for four. Predictable results: unmanageable life, various drunken injuries, delirium tremens, liver problems etc. One day I just had enough: I hadn't been able to sign my name or cut my food with a knife and fork for what seemed like years. I was coming off a five-day bender and just decided I had had enough. For some time, it was apparrent that I couldn't drink as well as enjoy the lifestyle I wanted to, so I stopped cold turkey. I found my way into AA less than a week later and it's been a whirlwind since.

I've read that folks with personality disorders are more prone to addiction, and, anecdotally, I think it is true. One thing about 12-stepping is that just about everyone seems to find people similar to themselves in those rooms.

Wastinglife

Sometimes I wished I was a sociopath due to the remorse, guilt, and shame I feel for the things I did while drunk. Can a sociopath get depressed?

Side note: Mark Zuckerberg strikes me a sociopath. Colder than most even.