Will, powerlessness and turning your life over
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Will, powerlessness and turning your life over
Temporary disclaimer, again. I am very new to looking into secular approaches to the 12 steps. Sorry if I say something that you have read repeatedly or is ignorant of something commonly said about secular 12 steps.
I have difficulty thinking about the 12 steps separate from ideas that are not directly about the steps that have been said by people I have met in AA and what I have read in AA literature.
There is practical value in the western christian religious experience. The idea of a church serves a useful social function. It seems to me that it would be a good idea to separate out the beneficial aspects of that experience from the religion part.
The benefit that people get from "turning it over" to their higher power is similar to the notion of not placing demands on reality. Some mental anguish comes from demanding that reality conform to one's wishes. For example, I can't stop drinking until reality agrees to give me a job. If I reason that it is not true that the world MUST do as I demand, I am in a sense turning my will and my life over to reality.
The idea of self-will and turning your life over to a higher power have interesting implications, I think. AA uses both the terms "willingness" and "self-will" and then gets confusing saying in "we agnostics" that it would be a good idea to be willing to have enough of an open mind to try having a closed mind and accept that a god's will is the only valid will.
Will power is required to do anything intentionally. But, it is not the only factor. I can agree that acting as if reality can be changed to conform to one's wishes by will power alone is not a good approach. In the same way, laying on the floor waiting for a higher power to fix your life for you is not a good approach. Your will is required.
The first (placing demands on reality) is "self-will power", I guess.
The idea of "powerlessness" can be thought of with the same nuances, I think. Thinking you are "powerless" over an addictive substance in an absolute sense is dangerous and irrational. But, addiction, by definition, means that you have an involuntary relationship with something. So, you are "powerless" to some extent.
I have difficulty thinking about the 12 steps separate from ideas that are not directly about the steps that have been said by people I have met in AA and what I have read in AA literature.
There is practical value in the western christian religious experience. The idea of a church serves a useful social function. It seems to me that it would be a good idea to separate out the beneficial aspects of that experience from the religion part.
The benefit that people get from "turning it over" to their higher power is similar to the notion of not placing demands on reality. Some mental anguish comes from demanding that reality conform to one's wishes. For example, I can't stop drinking until reality agrees to give me a job. If I reason that it is not true that the world MUST do as I demand, I am in a sense turning my will and my life over to reality.
The idea of self-will and turning your life over to a higher power have interesting implications, I think. AA uses both the terms "willingness" and "self-will" and then gets confusing saying in "we agnostics" that it would be a good idea to be willing to have enough of an open mind to try having a closed mind and accept that a god's will is the only valid will.
Will power is required to do anything intentionally. But, it is not the only factor. I can agree that acting as if reality can be changed to conform to one's wishes by will power alone is not a good approach. In the same way, laying on the floor waiting for a higher power to fix your life for you is not a good approach. Your will is required.
The first (placing demands on reality) is "self-will power", I guess.
The idea of "powerlessness" can be thought of with the same nuances, I think. Thinking you are "powerless" over an addictive substance in an absolute sense is dangerous and irrational. But, addiction, by definition, means that you have an involuntary relationship with something. So, you are "powerless" to some extent.
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Interesting thoughts. I've thought about these concepts a lot myself. I see the turning your life over concept as acceptance of reality. Because I believe the universe is essentially indifferent to me and everything here, this concept makes sense to me most in the zen buddhist sense I guess. The Four Noble Truths. I think the first one is about this acceptance of "suffering" in the world as something that is inevitable, and we are simply not able to prevent these things from happening... things such as illness, aging, death, addiction, loss, etc.
I try to keep it simple these days. Lord knows I've done my share of deep thinking (psych and philosophy background). These days I try to see what happens to me in a clear way, determine whether it's something I can change or not, let go of it if I can't, change it if I can... or somehow find peace in between if things are fuzzy.
I try to keep it simple these days. Lord knows I've done my share of deep thinking (psych and philosophy background). These days I try to see what happens to me in a clear way, determine whether it's something I can change or not, let go of it if I can't, change it if I can... or somehow find peace in between if things are fuzzy.
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The idea of "powerlessness" can be thought of with the same nuances, I think. Thinking you are "powerless" over an addictive substance in an absolute sense is dangerous and irrational. But, addiction, by definition, means that you have an involuntary relationship with something. So, you are "powerless" to some extent.
Powerless is used to describe more than just managing alcohol. It is also related to the "- that our lives had become unmanageable" part as well. By admitting we are powerless, we are allowing a alternative source of power into our lives.
If that does not make sense, keep in mind that Spiritual Principles don't need to make sense to get results. If you are willing to do some serious homework on this concept, read up on "Wu Wei" of Taoism.
Wu wei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Originally Posted by BobArctor 
The idea of "powerlessness" can be thought of with the same nuances, I think. Thinking you are "powerless" over an addictive substance in an absolute sense is dangerous and irrational. But, addiction, by definition, means that you have an involuntary relationship with something. So, you are "powerless" to some extent.
In terms of the things that I used to drink over (social situations, relationships that don't quite work as expected, financial pressures, etc.) much of the problem seems to be that I am coming from a place of "things shouldn't be this way" and trying to bulldoze what exists with my desired reality. Obviously, this doesn't work... I am powerless, whether I want to recognize it or not. It's that willful ignorance that I think we wrestle with in our transition from "not drinking" to sobriety (not needing to drink).
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Simplicity
Some interesting ideas presented to gnaw on...
Back in the Biz World, we used to shoot for achieving 'The Desired End Result'. We'd focus on a Goal, and work backwards on execution.
Applied to the OP question, my view is to optionally use the 12 Steps, obtained from any number of sources, to further yourself as desired. AA doesn't have a monopoly on Steps, so the fact you're aware of using AA as a source of Steps is kind of an aside. Further, plenty of resources of Sobriety assistance precede AA. The Eastern POV that boleo cites is one source of 'Steps' that predate AA. I Bookmarked these, posted here recently by mentium. I think that branching out in your thinking will free you from trying to reconcile the Steps you want from any problematic AA-aspects. Fact is, Folks have been walking away from Addiction fo evah.
I agree that Church can be a useful Social function. There are Fellowship Churches around that emphasize the 'Social' aspect while skipping the conventional Dogma. The Church aspect also can be distilled out from Step Dogma by working Secular Steps, if you prefer. So, this possible 'conflict' is easily resolved. Achieve 'The Desired End Result' while skipping distracting Dogma.
12 Secular Steps
In packing up this House to move, I today ran across our 'old' Book of 6th Century Writings of Lao Tze. I'll be referring to it daily for my Spiritual growth. It's a direct line to the thinking I want/need right now without 'Corporate'-style Religious corruption.
When I first joined SR a few months into my self-determined Sobriety, I kept reading these tortuous interpretations of 'Powerlessness'. Folks appeared to be working way too hard to parse a meaning. I'm powerless only if I pick up that first Drink. We've already established that repeatedly. However, if I never pick up that first Drink, I believe most of us have considerable innate power to exert resistance against that first Drink without any epic, protracted struggle. I'm not powerless in personal composition or character. I'm powerless in a very few areas against certain, addictive intoxicants once I start. Let's not make the proverbial Mountain out of a Molehill here. If this is not true, I've have to be restrained while on an IV for the rest of my Life and never set free. Every day, we exert similar resistance against killing someone; or burning down the House of a hated Neighbor; or not stealing. Thus, we need not lean on external Crutches or torturous formal Programs when we can ourselves achieve - wait for it - The Desired End Result.
If the Goal is to start a Fire in the Wilderness, you can hike around and hope to find a clear Glass Bottle. Then, carefully break it. Then, hope for a Sunny day without Rain. Then, carefully use a curved, broken portion as a Magnifying Glass and hope to start a Fire. Or, you can use the Boy Scout method and rub 2 Sticks together in a certain way to start fine Flammables on fire; Lint or Powder. Prescribed, tedious Steps are like the first method. Simpler Steps without the Baggage of mandatory indoctrination, or - alternately - AVRT, are like the second method. Further, you don't wait for Divine Intervention. You take charge and start the damned Fire. That is, jump start and continue to enjoy the Life of a Sober Person.
Re: Reality... A very chilled ex-Viet Nam Pal educated me that a Driver flipping you off is only an event in time at a certain GPS Point on Earth. Everything else about that event you superimpose upon it. Some Folks will react to that perceived 'Reality' and get all bent, or have to get even. Why? All you're doing is letting this other Person steal your power to determine your happiness and Mindset. Boy, I sure showed me! Others will see this event for what it was and not react. Thus, the 'Reality' we try so hard to master and direct is nearly-always ours to decide the final interpretation of. It's not being 'imposed' upon us, like some Doctor hitting our Kneecap with a Hammer and forcing an involuntary Knee jerk.
One easy Meditation is to sit quietly with Eyes closed and imagine a Candle. Try, in your Mind, to keep the Flame perfectly still. Rinse and repeat. It's tough. These sorts of States let deep Messages emerge. What you need to be doing is already known. Stripping away the static 'noise' to be able to hear that message, like some Radio Transmission that's barely audible, is the trick.
Leaning on a Sobriety-inducing 'force' outside oneself represents capitulation for me. I can't see trading dependence on an external 750 ml Bottle with dependence on an enslaving Program. Read some Threads here on what a struggle this trade-off is for so many, and how much effort they're expending to try to force a Round Peg into a Square Hole in order to use 'conventional' Steps. It's exhausting to read about these convoluted regimens and the effort expended in 'trying to fit in'. Other Steps, and/or internal strengths, are readily at your disposal.
Yah, I'll turn my Life over. No problem. To me.
Back in the Biz World, we used to shoot for achieving 'The Desired End Result'. We'd focus on a Goal, and work backwards on execution.
Applied to the OP question, my view is to optionally use the 12 Steps, obtained from any number of sources, to further yourself as desired. AA doesn't have a monopoly on Steps, so the fact you're aware of using AA as a source of Steps is kind of an aside. Further, plenty of resources of Sobriety assistance precede AA. The Eastern POV that boleo cites is one source of 'Steps' that predate AA. I Bookmarked these, posted here recently by mentium. I think that branching out in your thinking will free you from trying to reconcile the Steps you want from any problematic AA-aspects. Fact is, Folks have been walking away from Addiction fo evah.
I agree that Church can be a useful Social function. There are Fellowship Churches around that emphasize the 'Social' aspect while skipping the conventional Dogma. The Church aspect also can be distilled out from Step Dogma by working Secular Steps, if you prefer. So, this possible 'conflict' is easily resolved. Achieve 'The Desired End Result' while skipping distracting Dogma.
12 Secular Steps
In packing up this House to move, I today ran across our 'old' Book of 6th Century Writings of Lao Tze. I'll be referring to it daily for my Spiritual growth. It's a direct line to the thinking I want/need right now without 'Corporate'-style Religious corruption.
When I first joined SR a few months into my self-determined Sobriety, I kept reading these tortuous interpretations of 'Powerlessness'. Folks appeared to be working way too hard to parse a meaning. I'm powerless only if I pick up that first Drink. We've already established that repeatedly. However, if I never pick up that first Drink, I believe most of us have considerable innate power to exert resistance against that first Drink without any epic, protracted struggle. I'm not powerless in personal composition or character. I'm powerless in a very few areas against certain, addictive intoxicants once I start. Let's not make the proverbial Mountain out of a Molehill here. If this is not true, I've have to be restrained while on an IV for the rest of my Life and never set free. Every day, we exert similar resistance against killing someone; or burning down the House of a hated Neighbor; or not stealing. Thus, we need not lean on external Crutches or torturous formal Programs when we can ourselves achieve - wait for it - The Desired End Result.
If the Goal is to start a Fire in the Wilderness, you can hike around and hope to find a clear Glass Bottle. Then, carefully break it. Then, hope for a Sunny day without Rain. Then, carefully use a curved, broken portion as a Magnifying Glass and hope to start a Fire. Or, you can use the Boy Scout method and rub 2 Sticks together in a certain way to start fine Flammables on fire; Lint or Powder. Prescribed, tedious Steps are like the first method. Simpler Steps without the Baggage of mandatory indoctrination, or - alternately - AVRT, are like the second method. Further, you don't wait for Divine Intervention. You take charge and start the damned Fire. That is, jump start and continue to enjoy the Life of a Sober Person.
Re: Reality... A very chilled ex-Viet Nam Pal educated me that a Driver flipping you off is only an event in time at a certain GPS Point on Earth. Everything else about that event you superimpose upon it. Some Folks will react to that perceived 'Reality' and get all bent, or have to get even. Why? All you're doing is letting this other Person steal your power to determine your happiness and Mindset. Boy, I sure showed me! Others will see this event for what it was and not react. Thus, the 'Reality' we try so hard to master and direct is nearly-always ours to decide the final interpretation of. It's not being 'imposed' upon us, like some Doctor hitting our Kneecap with a Hammer and forcing an involuntary Knee jerk.
One easy Meditation is to sit quietly with Eyes closed and imagine a Candle. Try, in your Mind, to keep the Flame perfectly still. Rinse and repeat. It's tough. These sorts of States let deep Messages emerge. What you need to be doing is already known. Stripping away the static 'noise' to be able to hear that message, like some Radio Transmission that's barely audible, is the trick.
Leaning on a Sobriety-inducing 'force' outside oneself represents capitulation for me. I can't see trading dependence on an external 750 ml Bottle with dependence on an enslaving Program. Read some Threads here on what a struggle this trade-off is for so many, and how much effort they're expending to try to force a Round Peg into a Square Hole in order to use 'conventional' Steps. It's exhausting to read about these convoluted regimens and the effort expended in 'trying to fit in'. Other Steps, and/or internal strengths, are readily at your disposal.
Yah, I'll turn my Life over. No problem. To me.
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The act of going to and engaging with AA (or other agency) is in itself an act that shows we are not powerless. It is a paradox, as are many key points in the spiritual AA approach in my view.
However as an atheist, who used to rail at some of these inconsistencies I have somehow taken on Step 3 in some form or fashion at least in part using the advice I have been given - 'keep it simple, stupid'.
Why? Because AA keeps me sober, where nothing else has.
However as an atheist, who used to rail at some of these inconsistencies I have somehow taken on Step 3 in some form or fashion at least in part using the advice I have been given - 'keep it simple, stupid'.
Why? Because AA keeps me sober, where nothing else has.
Laozi Old Man
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Originally Posted by MesaMan
In packing up this House to move, I today ran across our 'old' Book of 6th Century Writings of Lao Tze. I'll be referring to it daily for my Spiritual growth. It's a direct line to the thinking I want/need right now without 'Corporate'-style Religious corruption.
BTW - It was 5th Century BC Writings of Laozi (name was changed in Western circles about 20 years ago).
Laozi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I often run into confusion about words like "powerless" that have to do with time. I was unable to stop drinking, so I sought a program of recovery and stopped drinking. It doesn't mean that I am forever unable to stop drinking. I was, in the past, unable to stop drinking.
When you are at the point were you are failing to stop your addictive behavior, it is true then that you are unable to stop. It is possible though, that you can stop, in the future.
I think it is important to realize that we do not have absolute control over ourselves or the universe. I, meaning the part that uses words and identifies itself, am unaware of sub-conscious tendencies that I have. I also can't fly. I am powerless over my involuntary actions and I am powerless over gravity. But, involuntary actions can change to be under my intentional control and I can stand up, despite there being gravity. So, I am not powerless in an ultimate sense.
When you are at the point were you are failing to stop your addictive behavior, it is true then that you are unable to stop. It is possible though, that you can stop, in the future.
I think it is important to realize that we do not have absolute control over ourselves or the universe. I, meaning the part that uses words and identifies itself, am unaware of sub-conscious tendencies that I have. I also can't fly. I am powerless over my involuntary actions and I am powerless over gravity. But, involuntary actions can change to be under my intentional control and I can stand up, despite there being gravity. So, I am not powerless in an ultimate sense.
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Originally Posted by BobArctor
When you are at the point were you are failing to stop your addictive behavior, it is true then that you are unable to stop. It is possible though, that you can stop, in the future.
"Once you become a pickle - there is no going back to being a cucumber".
What that means is, once we cross the line into powerless territory, there is no going back. Kind of like the "point of no return" for an airplane in mid-flight.
Now that does not mean you automatically fit the "pickle" definition. You may indeed still be a cucumber. Only you can determine that for yourself.
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Addictive Behavior
When I descended into burning through a 1.75 L 'Handle' every 2 days on average vs. every 3 days on average, I figgered it was time. I up and quit.
The burning Neuropathy; 'Bugs' under the Skin; ache in Joints; Shakes; trashed G.I. System; all those symptoms were full blown. FN Beetch to shut it down at Home via Cold Turkey, but that's what I did. This causes me to completely empathize with those who couldn't pull it off. It's quite a stretch to call temporarily delaying that physical agony by continued Alcohol ingestion 'a choice'.
Disclaimer: Anyone who jumps Threads and tries to superimpose some of their Mainstream HP Cloud Spook crapola onto my experience is gonna have a serious online fight on their Hands. I was there. No one else was. Full stop. I have no problem with Folks superimposing thoughtful discussion re: Powerlessness on experiences such as mine. I don't have the sole, Universal, binary definition of where Powerlessness stops/starts.
When I read some of the talk in other Threads here about 'choice' I just shake my Head. 'Why did he keep Drinking and not choose his Family over that?' Like many things in Life, you haven't a clue what it feels like until you go through it.
I pulled up on the Stick of my proverbial Plane in time right before it augered into the Dirt. Like muscling through the agony of 2 Kidney Stones that were Decades apart, or Rehabbing from excruciating Whiplash/Nerve Damage [not Alcohol-related], you ultimately find out what you're made of. And then, you keep finding out some more...
The burning Neuropathy; 'Bugs' under the Skin; ache in Joints; Shakes; trashed G.I. System; all those symptoms were full blown. FN Beetch to shut it down at Home via Cold Turkey, but that's what I did. This causes me to completely empathize with those who couldn't pull it off. It's quite a stretch to call temporarily delaying that physical agony by continued Alcohol ingestion 'a choice'.
Disclaimer: Anyone who jumps Threads and tries to superimpose some of their Mainstream HP Cloud Spook crapola onto my experience is gonna have a serious online fight on their Hands. I was there. No one else was. Full stop. I have no problem with Folks superimposing thoughtful discussion re: Powerlessness on experiences such as mine. I don't have the sole, Universal, binary definition of where Powerlessness stops/starts.
When I read some of the talk in other Threads here about 'choice' I just shake my Head. 'Why did he keep Drinking and not choose his Family over that?' Like many things in Life, you haven't a clue what it feels like until you go through it.
I pulled up on the Stick of my proverbial Plane in time right before it augered into the Dirt. Like muscling through the agony of 2 Kidney Stones that were Decades apart, or Rehabbing from excruciating Whiplash/Nerve Damage [not Alcohol-related], you ultimately find out what you're made of. And then, you keep finding out some more...
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Perhaps a better example of how the word "powerless" gets confused is to compare it to "swimming". If you ask someone to swim across a river and they say "I can't swim", people usually won't argue "yes you can", meaning that they could take lessons, learn how to swim and then swim across the river.
Because of the words used in recovery programs, "powerless" is treated differently.
"Powerless" among people I have met in AA means absolutely powerless. Meaning you have no choice but to accept a program blindly in order to live the rest of your life in fear of the addiction that you are powerless against.
People I have talked to in SMART say we are not powerless, meaning in an absolute sense. They mean that addiction is entirely a choice.
It appears to me that both choice and involuntary behavior is involved in addiction. When talking normally, people will say that they "can't stop". That is why they seek help. It doesn't mean that they can never stop.
Because of the words used in recovery programs, "powerless" is treated differently.
"Powerless" among people I have met in AA means absolutely powerless. Meaning you have no choice but to accept a program blindly in order to live the rest of your life in fear of the addiction that you are powerless against.
People I have talked to in SMART say we are not powerless, meaning in an absolute sense. They mean that addiction is entirely a choice.
It appears to me that both choice and involuntary behavior is involved in addiction. When talking normally, people will say that they "can't stop". That is why they seek help. It doesn't mean that they can never stop.
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Originally Posted by BobArctor
meaning that they could take lessons, learn how to swim and then swim across the river.
That's a tree I barked up for way too many years.
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Originally Posted by Boleo
Meaning that I could take lessons, learn how to drink and then drink like a normal person?
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Originally Posted by BobArctor
I meant that someone is "powerless" over alcohol, but can take lessons in not drinking, in a recovery program, learn how to not abuse alcohol and then live a life without alcohol.
I know I myself tried at least a dozen different ways to "learn how to drink normally". For alcoholics of my type, it all boils down to the 4 Paradox's;
1. We must suffer to get well.
2. We must surrender to win.
3. We must give it away to keep it.
4. We must die to be reborn.
AA History - The Professor and The Paradox
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BobArctor ~
I had no clue that's what you were referring to [Moderated Drinking]. Many of us have written that off. It's a Big Ole Fail to those who've failed. That would be me. So, it's not on our Radar to even try, or to discuss the fine points of how it might work.
I don't mention this to shut down discussion. That's not my Gig. I'm just trying to provide insight as to why this Thread might have run off the Rails vs. where you wanted/expected it to go.
I had no clue that's what you were referring to [Moderated Drinking]. Many of us have written that off. It's a Big Ole Fail to those who've failed. That would be me. So, it's not on our Radar to even try, or to discuss the fine points of how it might work.
I don't mention this to shut down discussion. That's not my Gig. I'm just trying to provide insight as to why this Thread might have run off the Rails vs. where you wanted/expected it to go.
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I am not referring to moderated drinking.
I'm saying that there is value in the 12 step notion of powerlessness and turning one's will over to a higher power, where the higher power is reality and that it can be coupled with empowering one's sober self based in reason and that it is necessary.
I'm saying that there is value in the 12 step notion of powerlessness and turning one's will over to a higher power, where the higher power is reality and that it can be coupled with empowering one's sober self based in reason and that it is necessary.
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Originally Posted by MesaMan
So...
One easy Meditation is to sit quietly with Eyes closed and imagine a Candle. Try, in your Mind, to keep the Flame perfectly still. Rinse and repeat. It's tough. These sorts of States let deep Messages emerge. What you need to be doing is already known. Stripping away the static 'noise' to be able to hear that message, like some Radio Transmission that's barely audible, is the trick.
************************************************** *******
Yah, I'll turn my Life over. No problem. To me.
One easy Meditation is to sit quietly with Eyes closed and imagine a Candle. Try, in your Mind, to keep the Flame perfectly still. Rinse and repeat. It's tough. These sorts of States let deep Messages emerge. What you need to be doing is already known. Stripping away the static 'noise' to be able to hear that message, like some Radio Transmission that's barely audible, is the trick.
************************************************** *******
Yah, I'll turn my Life over. No problem. To me.
My higher power is knowledge. In my case; event, cause, solution.
I lost my job - event
My BAC was not .000 - cause
Never drink again - solution
That's it. Many things prior to that affected the cause. I can give many reasons why I drank. The bottom line is drinking affected my life - change it now.
That's what I did. I quit drinking. One less excuse and one less negative variable in my life. Everything else is the same (except for losing job). Change one variable in the equation of life and the outcome can be dramatically different.
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