Making AA fit my beliefs values..
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North of England
Posts: 1,442
Making AA fit my beliefs values..
(Apologies for the double post. I fist posted this an hour or two ago as a 'reply'. Was meant to be a new thread)
I'm returning to AA after a lapse following six months sober and attending AA. I am going because of the fellowship as I can't do it alone I don't think and it is the only game in town (this town that is). Here in the UK the spiritual side is not hugely emphasised and it is quite easy to opt out of it or fudge the issue I would say. Many of the long time sober guys though do make it clear that for them there is no recovery without the spiritual element. As an atheist I guess I can accept that the reality of my situation is that I am unable to drink safely and that 'power' requires a certain sort of surrender to overcome.
That sounds a bit muddled but I will clarify it over time I hope.
I am posting here for ideas and advice about how to approach AA if one is an atheist. I have seen alternative versions of the Steps and so on, but I do find myself struggling in meetings to speak with too many 'buts' and reservations about how I feel about the spiritual side. So far I fall back on one simple idea - that the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking
I'm returning to AA after a lapse following six months sober and attending AA. I am going because of the fellowship as I can't do it alone I don't think and it is the only game in town (this town that is). Here in the UK the spiritual side is not hugely emphasised and it is quite easy to opt out of it or fudge the issue I would say. Many of the long time sober guys though do make it clear that for them there is no recovery without the spiritual element. As an atheist I guess I can accept that the reality of my situation is that I am unable to drink safely and that 'power' requires a certain sort of surrender to overcome.
That sounds a bit muddled but I will clarify it over time I hope.
I am posting here for ideas and advice about how to approach AA if one is an atheist. I have seen alternative versions of the Steps and so on, but I do find myself struggling in meetings to speak with too many 'buts' and reservations about how I feel about the spiritual side. So far I fall back on one simple idea - that the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Mentium 
I am posting here for ideas and advice about how to approach AA if one is an atheist. I have seen alternative versions of the Steps and so on, but I do find myself struggling in meetings to speak with too many 'buts' and reservations about how I feel about the spiritual side. So far I fall back on one simple idea - that the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking
(BB page 58)
Path can be:
Group Of Drunks
Good Orderly Direction
Guider Of decisions
The Way
The Process
The Tao
"It's a process. Trust the process."
(Brad Pitt in Moneyball)
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 453
In one meeting that I went to when I was still new and struggling, the topic was spirituality. I was about two days sober or so. Someone called on me to speak and all I could say was, "I don't know anything about spirituality and I don't know how it's connected to not drinking, but I just want to stay sober. That's all I've got." And no one kicked me out. 
My sense of spirituality has grown, but I'm still on the agnostic side of things for the most part. My first sponsor was an atheist and I've known many atheists in AA. My second sponsor, however, was a practicing Catholic and they both taught me the same thing: be true to myself and honest.
I think that in AA--as in SR--the best thing is to be honest and share about what has helped you. You can work the steps as an atheist (do a search on it here, there are some good threads) if you so choose. (They helped me greatly, so I can't help but hope others will follow that path.)
There is no spokesperson for AA and no one can kick you out, and no one can tell you what to think (or they can try, but you don't have to listen, haha). I figure that goes both ways. If someone is talking a lot about religion and the capital G word, I respect them in the same way I hope they'll respect how I view the world. And if they don't, well, that's something for them to work on, not me.
A sense of honesty and integrity can be a higher power, for example.
Take care.
My sense of spirituality has grown, but I'm still on the agnostic side of things for the most part. My first sponsor was an atheist and I've known many atheists in AA. My second sponsor, however, was a practicing Catholic and they both taught me the same thing: be true to myself and honest.
I think that in AA--as in SR--the best thing is to be honest and share about what has helped you. You can work the steps as an atheist (do a search on it here, there are some good threads) if you so choose. (They helped me greatly, so I can't help but hope others will follow that path.)
There is no spokesperson for AA and no one can kick you out, and no one can tell you what to think (or they can try, but you don't have to listen, haha). I figure that goes both ways. If someone is talking a lot about religion and the capital G word, I respect them in the same way I hope they'll respect how I view the world. And if they don't, well, that's something for them to work on, not me.
A sense of honesty and integrity can be a higher power, for example.
Take care.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,954
I followed Jimmy B's path and that has made it possible for me to have a pleasant AA experience with my sobriety. As for prayers I used this mantra: Om mani padme hum. One of the best lessons I have learned in sobriety is "letting-go" of the hindrances that fowled me up. To me its a process of discovering my HP, that being my "Higher Potential". Follow the AA code: "Love and tolerance of others is our code." Big Book page 84. And that will really help you in AA.
Jim Burwell a.k.a Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps was an atheist that went to his grave with 3 decades of sobriety in AA. He wrote:
Jim Burwell a.k.a Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps was an atheist that went to his grave with 3 decades of sobriety in AA. He wrote:
”For the new agnostic or atheist just coming in, I will try to give very briefly my milestones in recovery.
1. The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn.
2. The A.A. Fellowship became my Higher Power for the first two years.
3. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were found in all of us.
4. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady.”
- J.B., San Diego, California.
1. The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn.
2. The A.A. Fellowship became my Higher Power for the first two years.
3. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were found in all of us.
4. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady.”
- J.B., San Diego, California.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic USA
Posts: 2,441
Mentium, I found this thread interesting: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-quitting.html
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
just use the AA meetings to meet sober friends if you wish
there is nothing wrong with that
and I have to tell you
watching the struggling new comers come in
makes us want to dearly hold on to our sobriety
MM
there is nothing wrong with that
and I have to tell you
watching the struggling new comers come in
makes us want to dearly hold on to our sobriety
MM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: El Cerrito, California
Posts: 580
What happened to me is I had a pretty bad reaction to the Big Book, but found that being a critic of it wasn't going to keep me sober. I ended up praying for guidance--didn't know who I was praying to (an aspect of the collective unconscious perhaps) but it was better than what my mind was coming up with.
I came to think that the third step was about being in touch with intuitive rather than judgmental and obsessive thinking. And I felt I got little "nudges"--go to meetings even when I hated them, become a secretary, etc. I read outside literature about alcoholism. Eventually, I went to a meditation place--Buddhist--where one of the teachers wrote "God is irrelevant." It's about working with your mind, and being open and curious--but not about blind faith.
I've been sober a long time, and have always had an odd relationship with AA--get a lot more out of my Buddhist place actually--and therapy was also big. AA doesn't seem to be open minded to much besides its own take on things, but I stumbled into something that worked for me.
I came to think that the third step was about being in touch with intuitive rather than judgmental and obsessive thinking. And I felt I got little "nudges"--go to meetings even when I hated them, become a secretary, etc. I read outside literature about alcoholism. Eventually, I went to a meditation place--Buddhist--where one of the teachers wrote "God is irrelevant." It's about working with your mind, and being open and curious--but not about blind faith.
I've been sober a long time, and have always had an odd relationship with AA--get a lot more out of my Buddhist place actually--and therapy was also big. AA doesn't seem to be open minded to much besides its own take on things, but I stumbled into something that worked for me.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
Hi Mentium, you might care to check out the AAAgnostica website: it's for atheists, agnostics and freethinkers in AA. Heaps of useful and insightful articles with discussion comments, and all manner of secular Step-oriented books etc. Quite a treasure trove.
There are heaps of Buddhist 12 Step websites and books around too. I go to AA in Aus, which is similar to the UK i.e. less of a religious society overall, but still like - and need - to explore these kinds of alternatives, or different takes on the Steps. Currently reading, for example, a great book by Kevin Griffin (a Buddhist teacher in the States): 'A Burning Desire: Dharma God and the Path of Recovery'. He explicitly addresses the 'God' Steps. It's excellent.
There are heaps of Buddhist 12 Step websites and books around too. I go to AA in Aus, which is similar to the UK i.e. less of a religious society overall, but still like - and need - to explore these kinds of alternatives, or different takes on the Steps. Currently reading, for example, a great book by Kevin Griffin (a Buddhist teacher in the States): 'A Burning Desire: Dharma God and the Path of Recovery'. He explicitly addresses the 'God' Steps. It's excellent.
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
I was told by the priests and nuns in the Catholic church exactly how I was supposed to believe in God, according to how THEY understood him, with no room at all for my own ideas. So I left the church and nursed a grudge for 40 years.
Coming into AA I felt that I finally experienced the opportunity to develop my sense of spirituality exactly how I wanted it to be. I found that the "how I understand God" phrase has allowed me to pursue a highly eclectic idea of spirituality.
And it's perfectly okay with AA.
When I refer to a power greater than myself, it is a deeply personal idea and nobody in the room has a clue what that idea is. I have never had anyone try to define God to me, nor ask me to define God to them in a meeting.
Coming into AA I felt that I finally experienced the opportunity to develop my sense of spirituality exactly how I wanted it to be. I found that the "how I understand God" phrase has allowed me to pursue a highly eclectic idea of spirituality.
And it's perfectly okay with AA.
When I refer to a power greater than myself, it is a deeply personal idea and nobody in the room has a clue what that idea is. I have never had anyone try to define God to me, nor ask me to define God to them in a meeting.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by littlefish
I was told by the priests and nuns in the Catholic church exactly how I was supposed to believe in God, according to how THEY understood him, with no room at all for my own ideas.
"The tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao."
(Laozi - the original Laozi old man)
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 46
Hi my friend. As you must have internet access, there are a number of non AA groups you can do online that fellowship too. Lifering, SOS, HAMS, and there are some very good atheist AA groups online as well. Hope you find what you need and feel comfortable with soon! D
Reach Out and Touch Faith
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On a Sailboat
Posts: 3,871
Originally Posted by dblightstream
Hi my friend. As you must have internet access, there are a number of non AA groups you can do online that fellowship too. Lifering, SOS, HAMS, and there are some very good atheist AA groups online as well. Hope you find what you need and feel comfortable with soon! D
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Boston, Ma
Posts: 188
Step Three "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."
It was an atheist who coined the phrase "God, as we understood Him"
AA is not a religious program, its a spiritual program.
On page 12 of the Big Book, it is written that Ebby was sitting at Bill W.s kitchen table and Ebby was sober. Read below what Bill W. wrote in his story, he explains it beautifully, and he keeps it simple:
Page 12 in the Big Book:
It was an atheist who coined the phrase "God, as we understood Him"
AA is not a religious program, its a spiritual program.
On page 12 of the Big Book, it is written that Ebby was sitting at Bill W.s kitchen table and Ebby was sober. Read below what Bill W. wrote in his story, he explains it beautifully, and he keeps it simple:
Page 12 in the Big Book:
Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way.
My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?"
That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last.
It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would!
My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?"
That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last.
It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would!
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Originally Posted by Patriciae
It was an atheist who coined the phrase "God, as we understood Him"
The atheist you refer to (Jimmy B.), strongly advocated that the phrase "as we understand him" be used when the big book was written. He did not, however, coin the phrase.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 105
I have not yet looked into written opinions about a secular take on the 12 steps. So, I might say something different after reading more.
"We agnostics" seems to me to say roughly that if people accept the AA notion of higher power they will eventually come to realize that it is God. It seems to me to be written from the perspective of someone who is talking down to a child, humoring them so that they will discover for themselves what the adult knows. It proposes having an open mind about the idea of having a closed mind.
But, AA as a vehicle for recovery is the people involved, not the big book literally, I think.
"We agnostics" seems to me to say roughly that if people accept the AA notion of higher power they will eventually come to realize that it is God. It seems to me to be written from the perspective of someone who is talking down to a child, humoring them so that they will discover for themselves what the adult knows. It proposes having an open mind about the idea of having a closed mind.
But, AA as a vehicle for recovery is the people involved, not the big book literally, I think.
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