View Poll Results: What is the form of your higher power
Deity
5
19.23%
Material Object
0
0%
Concept/Actions
12
46.15%
None
9
34.62%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll
As an agnostic I believe
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NE Wisconsin USA
Posts: 6,223
As an agnostic I believe
Very recently in my recovery I have rejected my Christian beliefs and any type of religious belief in a deity, be it Wiccan, Native American, Islam, Buddhism, etc.
I do not believe in thought of a doorknob, tree, etc.
I claim belief in higher powers realized by human actions: love, caring, goodwill, peace, kindness, selflessness...pretty much the characteristics religious and spiritual people associate with a god(s) godess(es) and even nature.
The actions can be of negative value like: hate, violence, selfishness, etc. Such things are usually not associated with a higher power, except for evil beings.
I do not believe in a loving god nor a hateful god.
What I believe as a higher power(s) is pretty much how people describe as their higher power.
I really am pretty new to this belief system. When I first came in to AA/NA I was speaking in tongues and raising my hands. If a cult came recruiting I would have joined in a heart beat.
My AexW even told me not to speak of Jesus in meetings!
My religious beliefs became very complicated, ambiguous, to non-existent.
Finally, after the Colorado and Newton massacres I said enough is enough. There is no god. And to this day that is what I believe.
It is important in my recovery even much more today because I have to take responsibility for what I say and believe.
I am responsible for my own actions, and when interacting with other addicts I want to act accordingly with giving, loving, liking, caring, sharing.
The vestiges of the using addict remain...selfish, hating, regretting, bitter...but continued belief in higher powers, tactile, real, actions continues to grow....
FWIW....thanks...this is the first time I posted in-depth about my beliefs...I won't even go back to edit this
I do not believe in thought of a doorknob, tree, etc.
I claim belief in higher powers realized by human actions: love, caring, goodwill, peace, kindness, selflessness...pretty much the characteristics religious and spiritual people associate with a god(s) godess(es) and even nature.
The actions can be of negative value like: hate, violence, selfishness, etc. Such things are usually not associated with a higher power, except for evil beings.
I do not believe in a loving god nor a hateful god.
What I believe as a higher power(s) is pretty much how people describe as their higher power.
I really am pretty new to this belief system. When I first came in to AA/NA I was speaking in tongues and raising my hands. If a cult came recruiting I would have joined in a heart beat.
My AexW even told me not to speak of Jesus in meetings!
My religious beliefs became very complicated, ambiguous, to non-existent.
Finally, after the Colorado and Newton massacres I said enough is enough. There is no god. And to this day that is what I believe.
It is important in my recovery even much more today because I have to take responsibility for what I say and believe.
I am responsible for my own actions, and when interacting with other addicts I want to act accordingly with giving, loving, liking, caring, sharing.
The vestiges of the using addict remain...selfish, hating, regretting, bitter...but continued belief in higher powers, tactile, real, actions continues to grow....
FWIW....thanks...this is the first time I posted in-depth about my beliefs...I won't even go back to edit this
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
I wanted to take your poll but none of the answers were suitable for me. “None of the above” would work, if added.
I was a stanch agnostic. The so called “problem of evil” convinced me that there could be no God. (This is what I believe you were referring to when you referenced the Colorado and Newton massacres.)
In very much the same vein, I thought of my alcoholism as evil. How could it be anything but that?
I have a very different perspective now that I am sober. I have come to realize that both I, and the world in general, are better off because I was (and am) an alcoholic. The problem of alcohol lead me to a completely different perspective on life. That perspective, in the end, has resulted in far greater good (on the whole) than if I had never been an alcoholic.
So if things were better on the whole because I was (and am) an alcoholic, is my being an alcoholic a bad thing? The answer to that depends on your frame of reference. It depends on how you {bracket} experience. If you look at it from the perspective of someone in the misery and despair of alcoholism then it is evil. If you look at it from the net result, taking into consideration all the good that has resulted since, then I cannot see it as a bad thing.
I came to realize that my frame(s) of reference are quite limited. I cannot see how all events fit together to form the big picture.
Sorry, I responded to just this small part of your post, but it struck a chord with me.
I was a stanch agnostic. The so called “problem of evil” convinced me that there could be no God. (This is what I believe you were referring to when you referenced the Colorado and Newton massacres.)
In very much the same vein, I thought of my alcoholism as evil. How could it be anything but that?
I have a very different perspective now that I am sober. I have come to realize that both I, and the world in general, are better off because I was (and am) an alcoholic. The problem of alcohol lead me to a completely different perspective on life. That perspective, in the end, has resulted in far greater good (on the whole) than if I had never been an alcoholic.
So if things were better on the whole because I was (and am) an alcoholic, is my being an alcoholic a bad thing? The answer to that depends on your frame of reference. It depends on how you {bracket} experience. If you look at it from the perspective of someone in the misery and despair of alcoholism then it is evil. If you look at it from the net result, taking into consideration all the good that has resulted since, then I cannot see it as a bad thing.
I came to realize that my frame(s) of reference are quite limited. I cannot see how all events fit together to form the big picture.
Sorry, I responded to just this small part of your post, but it struck a chord with me.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NE Wisconsin USA
Posts: 6,223
Originally Posted by awuh1 
Sorry, I responded to just this small part of your post, but it struck a chord with me.
Rather slanted poll...but would like comments more than numbers.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by wiscsober
I claim belief in higher powers realized by human actions: love, caring, goodwill, peace, kindness, selflessness...
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: East Coast, The States
Posts: 12,162
For me it is the infinitely Intelligent, alll knowing, all loving, Universe.
I believe in the quantum field of possibilities, of which we are all manifest.
But I don't think it matters what we call it. Creator, God, Cosmos, Spirit, Soul....
We are born of it and we die back into its blissful oceanic arms.
I believe in the quantum field of possibilities, of which we are all manifest.
But I don't think it matters what we call it. Creator, God, Cosmos, Spirit, Soul....
We are born of it and we die back into its blissful oceanic arms.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 414
Originally Posted by wiscsober
Finally, after the Colorado and Newton massacres I said enough is enough. There is no god. And to this day that is what I believe.
If the existence of bad people is the only reason for your new-found agnostic beliefs, you may want to do some more research into these concepts. The basis of free-will is that there will be rewards or there will be consequences for behavior.
Food for thought.
Shape-Shifting Super-Hero
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eating Tofu!
Posts: 882
I believe the universe simply is, was and will always be, and is neither good nor evil, neither for nor against me, but simply is. Who can say how it was created? Who was there to see? And if the universe was created by a being, then who created that being? I prefer to proceed from the premise that it is unimportant how it all came about: Here it is.
The closest thing to a higher power I have worked with is the idea of the human potential for love, and of empathy.
~
The other day, I was on a train heading from Baltimore to Washington, DC. Some seats ahead of me, I could hear a family talking, and in particular the excited voice of a young boy,and his joy at being aboard a train. I could not tell his exact age. I could hear but not see him.
When we stopped at a station along the way, under construction, a man stood out in the 100 degree weather, holding an orange sign, cautioning other workers as to the approach of trains, clad in the heavy, coarse clothing of a construction worker.
I heard the boy say: "I feel bad for that man. Holding that sign like that, all day long, in the hot sun".
Exiting at my stop, I observed he was perhaps 6 or 7, and I was warmed that such a poignant sense of empathy, indeed love, could be expressed in such clear terms, and at such a young age.
I don't feel a belief in a God nor some ultimate creative power is needed for love and compassion; if I have a higher power, it might best be expressed by this ancient Chinese text, of which an excerpt follows:
From the Mo Tzu, or Mozi, written about 400 BC, China: Doctrine of Universal Love & Mutual Benefit.
"Mo Tzu said: The purpose of the humanist is to be found in procuring benefits for the world and eliminating its calamities.
But what are the benefits of the world and what are its calamities?
Mo Tzu said: Mutual attacks among states, mutual usurpation among houses, mutual injuries among individuals; the lack of grace and loyalty between ruler and ruled, the lack of affection and filial piety between father and son, the lack of harmony between elder and younger brothers—these are the major calamities in the world...
But where did these calamities come from, from universal love?
Mo Tzu said: Quite the opposite. They arise out of want of universal love. At present feudal lords have learned only to love their own states and not those of others. Therefore they do not scruple about attacking other states. The heads of houses have learned only to love their own houses and not those of others. Therefore they do not scruple about usurping other houses. And individuals have learned only to love themselves and not others. Therefore they do not scruple about injuring others.
When feudal lords do not love one another there will be war on the fields. When heads of houses do not love one another they will usurp one another's power. When individuals do not love one another they will injure one another. When ruler and ruled do not love one another they will not be gracious and loyal. When father and son do not love each other they will not be affectionate and filial. When elder and younger brothers do not love each other they will not be harmonious.
When nobody in the world loves any other, naturally the strong will overpower the weak, the many will oppress the few, the wealthy will mock the poor, those honored will disdain the humble, the cunning will deceive the simple. Therefore all the calamities, strife, complaints, and hatred in the world have arisen out of want of universal love. Therefore humanists disapprove of this want.
Now that there is disapproval, how can we have the condition altered?
Mo Tzu said: It is to be altered by the way of universal love and mutual support.
But what is the way of universal love and mutual support?
Mo Tzu said: It is to esteem other countries as much as one's own, the houses of others as much as one's own, the persons of others as much as one's self. When feudal lords love one another there will be no more war; when heads of houses love one another there will be no more mutual usurpation; when individuals love one another there will be no more mutual injury. When ruler and ruled love each other they will be gracious and loyal; when father and son love each other they will be affectionate and filial; when elder and younger brothers love each other they will be harmonious. When all the people in the world love one another, then the strong will not overpower the weak, the many will not oppress the few, the wealthy will not mock the poor, the honored will not disdain the humble, and the cunning will not deceive the simple. And it is all due to universal love that calamities, strife, complaints, and hatred are prevented from arising.
Therefore the humanist praises it.
But worldly people would say: "So far so good. It is of course very excellent when love becomes universal. But it is only a difficult and distant ideal."
Mo Tzu said: This is simply because the worldly people do not recognize what is to the benefit of the world, or understand what is calamitous to it. Now, to besiege a city, to fight in the fields, or to achieve a name at the cost of death—these are what men find difficult. Yet when the ruler encourages them, the multitude can do them. In comparison, universal love and mutual aid is quite different from these. Whoever loves others is loved by others; whoever benefits others is benefited by others; whoever hates others is hated by others; whoever injures others is injured by others. Then, what difficulty is there with universal love? Only that the ruler fails to embody it in his government and the ordinary man in his conduct."
~
For me, this engenders a sense of agency, of possibility, that though it may be difficult to do, it can be done.
Like any text this old, one benefits from looking at the historical context, in order to arrive at the more eternal essence.
The closest thing to a higher power I have worked with is the idea of the human potential for love, and of empathy.
~
The other day, I was on a train heading from Baltimore to Washington, DC. Some seats ahead of me, I could hear a family talking, and in particular the excited voice of a young boy,and his joy at being aboard a train. I could not tell his exact age. I could hear but not see him.
When we stopped at a station along the way, under construction, a man stood out in the 100 degree weather, holding an orange sign, cautioning other workers as to the approach of trains, clad in the heavy, coarse clothing of a construction worker.
I heard the boy say: "I feel bad for that man. Holding that sign like that, all day long, in the hot sun".
Exiting at my stop, I observed he was perhaps 6 or 7, and I was warmed that such a poignant sense of empathy, indeed love, could be expressed in such clear terms, and at such a young age.
I don't feel a belief in a God nor some ultimate creative power is needed for love and compassion; if I have a higher power, it might best be expressed by this ancient Chinese text, of which an excerpt follows:
From the Mo Tzu, or Mozi, written about 400 BC, China: Doctrine of Universal Love & Mutual Benefit.
"Mo Tzu said: The purpose of the humanist is to be found in procuring benefits for the world and eliminating its calamities.
But what are the benefits of the world and what are its calamities?
Mo Tzu said: Mutual attacks among states, mutual usurpation among houses, mutual injuries among individuals; the lack of grace and loyalty between ruler and ruled, the lack of affection and filial piety between father and son, the lack of harmony between elder and younger brothers—these are the major calamities in the world...
But where did these calamities come from, from universal love?
Mo Tzu said: Quite the opposite. They arise out of want of universal love. At present feudal lords have learned only to love their own states and not those of others. Therefore they do not scruple about attacking other states. The heads of houses have learned only to love their own houses and not those of others. Therefore they do not scruple about usurping other houses. And individuals have learned only to love themselves and not others. Therefore they do not scruple about injuring others.
When feudal lords do not love one another there will be war on the fields. When heads of houses do not love one another they will usurp one another's power. When individuals do not love one another they will injure one another. When ruler and ruled do not love one another they will not be gracious and loyal. When father and son do not love each other they will not be affectionate and filial. When elder and younger brothers do not love each other they will not be harmonious.
When nobody in the world loves any other, naturally the strong will overpower the weak, the many will oppress the few, the wealthy will mock the poor, those honored will disdain the humble, the cunning will deceive the simple. Therefore all the calamities, strife, complaints, and hatred in the world have arisen out of want of universal love. Therefore humanists disapprove of this want.
Now that there is disapproval, how can we have the condition altered?
Mo Tzu said: It is to be altered by the way of universal love and mutual support.
But what is the way of universal love and mutual support?
Mo Tzu said: It is to esteem other countries as much as one's own, the houses of others as much as one's own, the persons of others as much as one's self. When feudal lords love one another there will be no more war; when heads of houses love one another there will be no more mutual usurpation; when individuals love one another there will be no more mutual injury. When ruler and ruled love each other they will be gracious and loyal; when father and son love each other they will be affectionate and filial; when elder and younger brothers love each other they will be harmonious. When all the people in the world love one another, then the strong will not overpower the weak, the many will not oppress the few, the wealthy will not mock the poor, the honored will not disdain the humble, and the cunning will not deceive the simple. And it is all due to universal love that calamities, strife, complaints, and hatred are prevented from arising.
Therefore the humanist praises it.
But worldly people would say: "So far so good. It is of course very excellent when love becomes universal. But it is only a difficult and distant ideal."
Mo Tzu said: This is simply because the worldly people do not recognize what is to the benefit of the world, or understand what is calamitous to it. Now, to besiege a city, to fight in the fields, or to achieve a name at the cost of death—these are what men find difficult. Yet when the ruler encourages them, the multitude can do them. In comparison, universal love and mutual aid is quite different from these. Whoever loves others is loved by others; whoever benefits others is benefited by others; whoever hates others is hated by others; whoever injures others is injured by others. Then, what difficulty is there with universal love? Only that the ruler fails to embody it in his government and the ordinary man in his conduct."
~
For me, this engenders a sense of agency, of possibility, that though it may be difficult to do, it can be done.
Like any text this old, one benefits from looking at the historical context, in order to arrive at the more eternal essence.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by EternalQ
For me it is the infinitely Intelligent, alll knowing, all loving, Universe.
I believe in the quantum field of possibilities, of which we are all manifest.
But I don't think it matters what we call it. Creator, God, Cosmos, Spirit, Soul....
We are born of it and we die back into its blissful oceanic arms.
I believe in the quantum field of possibilities, of which we are all manifest.
But I don't think it matters what we call it. Creator, God, Cosmos, Spirit, Soul....
We are born of it and we die back into its blissful oceanic arms.
Also, here is a quick differentiation between atheist and agnostic: "An agnostic is anyone who doesn't claim to know for that any gods exist or not, no matter what their reasons or how they approach the question of whether any gods exist. This is also a simple concept, but it may be as widely misunderstood as atheism is. One major problem is that atheism and agnosticism both deal questions about the existence of gods, but whereas atheism involves what a person does or does not believe, agnosticism involves what a person does or does not know. Belief and knowledge are related but nevertheless separate issues.
There's a simple test to tell if one is an agnostic or not. Do you think you know for sure if any gods exist? If so, then you're not an agnostic. Do you think you know for sure that gods do not or even cannot exist? If so, then you're not an agnostic. Everyone who can't answer "yes" to one of those questions is a person who may or may not believe in one or more gods, but since they don't also claim to know for sure they are agnostic — an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist."
So... when I talk about a "Higher Power"... I am talking about beliefs, not knowledge.
It's quite silly and puzzling to me, that given all the above, the Big Book contains a chapter for the agnostics and completely gets it wrong... completely misunderstands what agnostic means. Lol.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by huskypup
i believe the universe simply is, was and will always be, and is neither good nor evil, neither for nor against me, but simply is. Who can say how it was created? Who was there to see? And if the universe was created by a being, then who created that being? I prefer to proceed from the premise that it is unimportant how it all came about: Here it is.
The closest thing to a higher power i have worked with is the idea of the human potential for love, and of empathy.
The closest thing to a higher power i have worked with is the idea of the human potential for love, and of empathy.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,944
Originally Posted by wiscsober
As an agnostic I believe
Your post Wisc struck a deep cord in me. This is my story.
I underwent a radical shift in perception when my father died. My family is Southern Baptist Christians, I suddenly became an angry atheist. I was young and ignorant with a burning hate of G*d that lasted for decades. Today I recognize the need to detach or "let go" of any anger or revolt I hung on to regarding G*d/HP's.
I now want to remove any barriers that would keep me in a place of darkness. My living in ignorance was and can again be a painful existence. There is remedy spoken by those "of the highest thought" that transmitted their wisdom down through the ages. Like being inquisitive, a pioneer, an explorer, being investigative, be on a peaceful journey of discovery that opens the door of a higher good.
"In oneself lies the whole world and if you know how to look and learn, the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody on earth can give you either the key or the door to open, except yourself." ~Jiddu Krishnamurti
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
SoberJennie points to the distinction between knowledge and belief. The whole area of epistemology (the study of knowledge and understanding) can actually get quite involved.
That aside, the distinction reminds me of the “Face to Face” interview of Carl Jung done by John Freeman. Freeman asks Jung if he believes in God. Jung’s reaction to the question is fascinating. It’s fascinating not just because of what Jung says, but even more so for the look on his face as he says it. For those interested the question comes in the first 10 minutes of the interview and can be seen here >>> Face to face with Carl Jung - Part 1 of 4 - YouTube
That aside, the distinction reminds me of the “Face to Face” interview of Carl Jung done by John Freeman. Freeman asks Jung if he believes in God. Jung’s reaction to the question is fascinating. It’s fascinating not just because of what Jung says, but even more so for the look on his face as he says it. For those interested the question comes in the first 10 minutes of the interview and can be seen here >>> Face to face with Carl Jung - Part 1 of 4 - YouTube
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NE Wisconsin USA
Posts: 6,223
Originally Posted by CharlieNoogan
I'm always amazed at the prevalence of this kind of thinking as it is fundamentally flawed. A "higher power" bestowed upon mankind free-will. This free-will allows humans to follow Him, or to succumb to evil. Thus the evil actions of individuals should never form a basis for claiming a revelation that "there is no god" as the individuals were exercising their God-given right of free-will.
If the existence of bad people is the only reason for your new-found agnostic beliefs, you may want to do some more research into these concepts. The basis of free-will is that there will be rewards or there will be consequences for behavior.
Food for thought.
If the existence of bad people is the only reason for your new-found agnostic beliefs, you may want to do some more research into these concepts. The basis of free-will is that there will be rewards or there will be consequences for behavior.
Food for thought.
The existence of bad people isn't the only reason for my agnosticism (nor a reason)....for me head knowledge is limited....experiences...life experiences...is more a basis for my beliefs. Research lacks compared to real life experiences.
The existence of good people doesn't prove to me the existence of a god.
My belief system has been evolving for many years. I credit my recovery program for helping me refine it and define it.
Last edited by wiscsober; 07-20-2013 at 07:39 AM. Reason: wording
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NE Wisconsin USA
Posts: 6,223
Thanks to everyone who posted...especially the long, involved, posts.
Thanks to those who kept on topic.
My OP was just from my experiences and present beliefs...itself wasn't meant for debate...but to generate an honest, open, non-judgmental thread. And again, thanks for the detailed posts.
I don't think I posted a good poll....but it is what it is...
Thanks to those who kept on topic.
My OP was just from my experiences and present beliefs...itself wasn't meant for debate...but to generate an honest, open, non-judgmental thread. And again, thanks for the detailed posts.
I don't think I posted a good poll....but it is what it is...
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 3,748
I was all over the place spiritually for decades trying to apply logic to a transcendent phenomenon and feeling like a hypocrite to attend Church, because I couldn't take all the trappings on board.
Has something of another epiphany with AA and can now relate to some of my misgivings....
Oops must rush its close to 8 o'clock Mass; Salvos next week maybe.:codiepolice
Has something of another epiphany with AA and can now relate to some of my misgivings....
Oops must rush its close to 8 o'clock Mass; Salvos next week maybe.:codiepolice
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: De
Posts: 1,333
All I know is that I am not God. If the Devine Power ever decides to reveal itself to me, I'll let you all know.meanwhile , I'll just continue to turn it over to whatever the hell it is. To me, that philosophy is no sillier that turning it over to some Jewish carpenter, a fat bald guy, and entity whose followers will kill you at even trying to depict what it looks like, or satan himself.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Orion spur of the Milky Way galaxy
Posts: 2,050
I have been wanting to post on this thread but my brain has been uncooperative. I just reread something I wrote to someone else and it pretty much sums up what I believe. So I've copied it to post here.
I am not religious and don't believe in God, but I do respect the beliefs of others and people's rights to believe what they want--as long as they don't hurt others, don't use their religion/beliefs to harm another. To me, that is inexcusable.
I grew up in the Catholic church and was abused there. You've probably read or heard about the scandals. I experienced what you have probably heard of and things that were never brought out into the open. I won't go into it now but I was tortured, yes, think Abu Ghraib. So I'm not too fond of organized religion.
I am, however, very spiritual, moral, ethical. I believe in walking my talk and that is why I respect other's beliefs, particularly when they practice what I believe Jesus truly taught which is compassion and empathy for all living beings. Every society, culture and religion around the world has some form of the golden rule--Love Thy Neighbor. Or the Japanese life guide of Ahimsa which means harmlessness. Or the Wiccan rede "And it harm none, do as thee will." And so on.
To me what is most important is to treat every living being with as much compassion, kindness, tolerance and acceptance as I can. Needless to say, as I am human, I don't always succeed. But those are my goals. I am very "self aware" at least my friends always tell me that. It is my goal, always, to heal, grow, change, become the best person I can be. So that is sort of my religion.
And I am in awe at the wonder, beauty, mystery of the Universe. I believe in love and a unifying spirit that ties us all together. Okay, that's my beliefs in not a nutshell.
I am not religious and don't believe in God, but I do respect the beliefs of others and people's rights to believe what they want--as long as they don't hurt others, don't use their religion/beliefs to harm another. To me, that is inexcusable.
I grew up in the Catholic church and was abused there. You've probably read or heard about the scandals. I experienced what you have probably heard of and things that were never brought out into the open. I won't go into it now but I was tortured, yes, think Abu Ghraib. So I'm not too fond of organized religion.
I am, however, very spiritual, moral, ethical. I believe in walking my talk and that is why I respect other's beliefs, particularly when they practice what I believe Jesus truly taught which is compassion and empathy for all living beings. Every society, culture and religion around the world has some form of the golden rule--Love Thy Neighbor. Or the Japanese life guide of Ahimsa which means harmlessness. Or the Wiccan rede "And it harm none, do as thee will." And so on.
To me what is most important is to treat every living being with as much compassion, kindness, tolerance and acceptance as I can. Needless to say, as I am human, I don't always succeed. But those are my goals. I am very "self aware" at least my friends always tell me that. It is my goal, always, to heal, grow, change, become the best person I can be. So that is sort of my religion.
And I am in awe at the wonder, beauty, mystery of the Universe. I believe in love and a unifying spirit that ties us all together. Okay, that's my beliefs in not a nutshell.
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