Excerpts from Waiting: A Nonbeliever's Higher Power by Marya Hornbacher
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Excerpts from Waiting: A Nonbeliever's Higher Power by Marya Hornbacher
This book is great! Wanted to share some excerpts from the Introduction. I'm reading it slowly in an effort to soak it all in 
Really, couldn't have picked a better book for myself at this point in sobriety.
I highly recommend this book if you are wanting to grow spiritually (or if you have any inkling or desire to tap into the spiritual)... only a few months ago I claimed to not have any insight anymore into my own spirit! I was spiritually dry due to my addiction.
I'm only at Chapter 2, but I can tell she is onto something profound, especially for those of us coming from the secular angle, and having a tough time with approaching the Steps and with its theistic language.
"Many of us have trained to think of "spirituality" as the sole provenance of religion; and if we have come to feel that the religious are not the only ones with access to a spiritual life, we may still be casting about for what, precisely, a spiritual life would be without a God, a religion, or a solid set of spiritual beliefs."
"When I speak of spirit, I am not speaking of something related to or given by a force outside ourselves. I am speaking of the force that is ourselves. The experience of living in this world, bound by a body, space, and time, woven into the fabric of human history, human connection, and human life. This is the force that feels and thinks and gives us consciousness at all; it is out awareness of presence in the world. It is the deepest, most elemental, most integral part of who we are; is is who we are."
"I am not speaking of some universal or transcendent "Spirit" that exists outside of us; I am speaking of the human spirit that exits in each of us. I'm speaking of something that is urgently important in ourselves, the very thing that's sent us searching, the thing that feels the longing, the thing that comes knocking on the door of our emotionally and intellectually closed lives and asks to be let in."
"I was one of those people who came into the Twelve Step program and was more confused by the notion of a Higher Power than opposed to it. I figured there might be one out there, and if all these people were sure there was, they were probably right and could likely tell me how to find it."
"I believe what guides us is already in us, is in fact the deepest part of who we are - capable of turning us into ever-more spiritually grounded, spiritually generous, peaceful people."
"The Steps are intended - and it sounds simple, and it is - to make us better people, more aware, more alive, and more spiritually whole. The Steps, at their heart, are a pathway to spiritual experiences."
"Thought the language of the old program literature is religious, its message is spiritual, and it seeks to bring about a spiritual experience."
"But another part of me has come to know this: it is precisely in my lack of certainty - about whether there is a God, about what the spirit actually is - that I find my spirituality. I have come to believe that, for me, peace can only be found in the acceptance of all I do not know."
Really, couldn't have picked a better book for myself at this point in sobriety. I highly recommend this book if you are wanting to grow spiritually (or if you have any inkling or desire to tap into the spiritual)... only a few months ago I claimed to not have any insight anymore into my own spirit! I was spiritually dry due to my addiction.
I'm only at Chapter 2, but I can tell she is onto something profound, especially for those of us coming from the secular angle, and having a tough time with approaching the Steps and with its theistic language.
"Many of us have trained to think of "spirituality" as the sole provenance of religion; and if we have come to feel that the religious are not the only ones with access to a spiritual life, we may still be casting about for what, precisely, a spiritual life would be without a God, a religion, or a solid set of spiritual beliefs."
"When I speak of spirit, I am not speaking of something related to or given by a force outside ourselves. I am speaking of the force that is ourselves. The experience of living in this world, bound by a body, space, and time, woven into the fabric of human history, human connection, and human life. This is the force that feels and thinks and gives us consciousness at all; it is out awareness of presence in the world. It is the deepest, most elemental, most integral part of who we are; is is who we are."
"I am not speaking of some universal or transcendent "Spirit" that exists outside of us; I am speaking of the human spirit that exits in each of us. I'm speaking of something that is urgently important in ourselves, the very thing that's sent us searching, the thing that feels the longing, the thing that comes knocking on the door of our emotionally and intellectually closed lives and asks to be let in."
"I was one of those people who came into the Twelve Step program and was more confused by the notion of a Higher Power than opposed to it. I figured there might be one out there, and if all these people were sure there was, they were probably right and could likely tell me how to find it."
"I believe what guides us is already in us, is in fact the deepest part of who we are - capable of turning us into ever-more spiritually grounded, spiritually generous, peaceful people."
"The Steps are intended - and it sounds simple, and it is - to make us better people, more aware, more alive, and more spiritually whole. The Steps, at their heart, are a pathway to spiritual experiences."
"Thought the language of the old program literature is religious, its message is spiritual, and it seeks to bring about a spiritual experience."
"But another part of me has come to know this: it is precisely in my lack of certainty - about whether there is a God, about what the spirit actually is - that I find my spirituality. I have come to believe that, for me, peace can only be found in the acceptance of all I do not know."
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Very interesting excerpts. They fit well with the story we read at tonight's meeting. It’s most certainly what Marya Hornbacher would call “old program literature” as it’s from the first edition. It’s called “Educated Agnostic”. Here is an excerpt,
“I stop at this point and address a few sentences directly to agnostic or atheistically inclined alcoholics: You can't take less stock in the references made to God in this book than I would have if this book had been available to me at that time. To you those references have no meaning. They have simply used a name that people give to a fond delusion.”
WOW, I could strongly relate. If interested here is the full story -------> Educated Agnostic
My thinking now is such that I do not believe in the “supernatural”. This implies a set of rules or natural laws that exist outside of nature itself. There is no need to assume this in order to lead a profoundly spiritual existence, and even less so to believe in a “higher” power.
There are many forms of energy that I do not pretend to understand.
“I stop at this point and address a few sentences directly to agnostic or atheistically inclined alcoholics: You can't take less stock in the references made to God in this book than I would have if this book had been available to me at that time. To you those references have no meaning. They have simply used a name that people give to a fond delusion.”
WOW, I could strongly relate. If interested here is the full story -------> Educated Agnostic
My thinking now is such that I do not believe in the “supernatural”. This implies a set of rules or natural laws that exist outside of nature itself. There is no need to assume this in order to lead a profoundly spiritual existence, and even less so to believe in a “higher” power.
There are many forms of energy that I do not pretend to understand.
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Thanks, Awuh! I did read that story just now. I loved what he said, and can relate to most of it... the gradual, almost imperceptible changes in outlook he had, I'm having that... but I have yet to arrive at his conclusion: "belief in a supreme and guiding power for good." Ah well... I've really just started
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I just read today this from Epictetus -
"It is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which they think they already know"
And the other day I came across this quote from Martin Luther King which spoke to me -
"I sought my soul, but my soul I could not see. I sought my God, but my God eluded me. I sought my brother and I found all three"
Being able to cast off the prejudices (or at least some of them), or and begin to explore life from a position of not knowing, rather than from a position of belief which has to be protected, has been one of the many benefits of recovery for me.
"It is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which they think they already know"
And the other day I came across this quote from Martin Luther King which spoke to me -
"I sought my soul, but my soul I could not see. I sought my God, but my God eluded me. I sought my brother and I found all three"
Being able to cast off the prejudices (or at least some of them), or and begin to explore life from a position of not knowing, rather than from a position of belief which has to be protected, has been one of the many benefits of recovery for me.
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I don't usually venture into this part of SR but I'm glad I did as this thread really speaks to me. I consider myself very spiritual but don't believe in a an all-powerful deity, particularly not a male one. For me nature and the mysteries of/in the Universe are more than enough to keep me busy.
I like this statement: "This implies a set of rules or natural laws that exist outside of nature itself." That makes sense yet still allows room for mystery. The older I get, the more accepting and "comfortable" I am with the idea of many mysteries, most of which I will never know the answer to.
I also appreciate that there may be a way to intersect with NA/the steps that doesn't include religion/hierarchy/patriarchy.
I like this statement: "This implies a set of rules or natural laws that exist outside of nature itself." That makes sense yet still allows room for mystery. The older I get, the more accepting and "comfortable" I am with the idea of many mysteries, most of which I will never know the answer to.
I also appreciate that there may be a way to intersect with NA/the steps that doesn't include religion/hierarchy/patriarchy.
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A Buddhist Agnostic Journey
[QUOTE=SoberJennie;4040235]This book is great!
Thanks SoberJennie...for recommending this book. I've just bought it and am about to start reading it. I'm hopeful it will support my own recovery effort to maintain alliances within 12 step groups. THX
Thanks SoberJennie...for recommending this book. I've just bought it and am about to start reading it. I'm hopeful it will support my own recovery effort to maintain alliances within 12 step groups. THX
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BUMP!
Hi all, I wanted to bump this one up (thanks Jennie) as it is totally where I'm at - like today, currently, lately, this very morning. I tend to go all incoherent when it comes to my higher power - indeed, 'the Cloud of Unknowing' comes to mind most of the time.
Where it gets befuddling for me is when 'waiting' (oh, that's a hard one!) on a cloud of unknowing comes up against (don't know if it's actually an opposition, but bear with me, this is all a long process for me...) trying to make a decision about a certain action in alignment with 'God's will'. As you'll know, this notion of obeying the will of God rather than my own little alcoholic will crops up numerous times in the AA literature and people's shares.
Only the other day, in response to my asking for guidance about a specific decision, my sponsor emailed me some writing about decision-making based on whether it's 'my will' or 'God's will'. The word 'obey' was front and centre throughout. This piece was written by Wally P (?) in the 30s. So, I 'get' all the cultural / historical context of it; I tried to do my usual attempt at mentally translating into contemporary spirituality language which resonates more for me. Failed miserably!
Ironically - or more likely, aptly - my decision (or not - i.e. waiting) is directly about whether to make a trip from Australia to LA fairly soon: to attend the first We Agnostics and Freethinkers International Convention in Santa Monica. One of the keynote speakers? Maya Hornbacher! All I've booked so far is a hotel room for the four nights - and I can cancel it without financial penalty up to 3 days prior. All the other logistics and financials of the trip - totally up in the air.
Lots of fear, anxiety, getting bogged down mentally in 'overseas travel solo' fine details. Lots of desire to expand the destination beyond LA for the convention to see NYC, maybe a few other places (how do you decide given how big the US of A is? Much like Australia). Lots of uncertainty - spiritually and ethically - about whether I'm using this trip's prospect to subtly put off attending to much more prosaic stuff here in my life (health stuff, family stuff, and frankly - just the occasional boredom of 'doing the thing' of daily recovery within the first year). As if that's not enough: lots of fear about the hit to my finances even in the medium-term: i.e. even a 3 week trip to the States, including paying for my rent and dog's boarding while away, would take up approx the equivalent of 6 months rent. I can't pay it back to myself, as I can't work due to disabilities.
Phew. That's a relief, to get it out there. My sponsor - bless her, she's not the authoritarian type at all - is encouraging, saying 'we can go anywhere and do anything in sobriety' i.e. we're no longer imprisoned the way we were. And she's totally cool that I'm much more an agnostic (although highly spiritual - in that unknowing way) than she. At 22 years sober, she's more into exploring 'God's will' in her decision making in the Christian sense. Hence the literature she sent me to help me in my decision making or if necessary, to 'decide not-to-decide just now' as she put it.
I don't have Maya H's book yet nor have read it yet. So, any thoughts from you wonderful co-travellers?
Hi all, I wanted to bump this one up (thanks Jennie) as it is totally where I'm at - like today, currently, lately, this very morning. I tend to go all incoherent when it comes to my higher power - indeed, 'the Cloud of Unknowing' comes to mind most of the time.
Where it gets befuddling for me is when 'waiting' (oh, that's a hard one!) on a cloud of unknowing comes up against (don't know if it's actually an opposition, but bear with me, this is all a long process for me...) trying to make a decision about a certain action in alignment with 'God's will'. As you'll know, this notion of obeying the will of God rather than my own little alcoholic will crops up numerous times in the AA literature and people's shares.
Only the other day, in response to my asking for guidance about a specific decision, my sponsor emailed me some writing about decision-making based on whether it's 'my will' or 'God's will'. The word 'obey' was front and centre throughout. This piece was written by Wally P (?) in the 30s. So, I 'get' all the cultural / historical context of it; I tried to do my usual attempt at mentally translating into contemporary spirituality language which resonates more for me. Failed miserably!
Ironically - or more likely, aptly - my decision (or not - i.e. waiting) is directly about whether to make a trip from Australia to LA fairly soon: to attend the first We Agnostics and Freethinkers International Convention in Santa Monica. One of the keynote speakers? Maya Hornbacher! All I've booked so far is a hotel room for the four nights - and I can cancel it without financial penalty up to 3 days prior. All the other logistics and financials of the trip - totally up in the air.
Lots of fear, anxiety, getting bogged down mentally in 'overseas travel solo' fine details. Lots of desire to expand the destination beyond LA for the convention to see NYC, maybe a few other places (how do you decide given how big the US of A is? Much like Australia). Lots of uncertainty - spiritually and ethically - about whether I'm using this trip's prospect to subtly put off attending to much more prosaic stuff here in my life (health stuff, family stuff, and frankly - just the occasional boredom of 'doing the thing' of daily recovery within the first year). As if that's not enough: lots of fear about the hit to my finances even in the medium-term: i.e. even a 3 week trip to the States, including paying for my rent and dog's boarding while away, would take up approx the equivalent of 6 months rent. I can't pay it back to myself, as I can't work due to disabilities.
Phew. That's a relief, to get it out there. My sponsor - bless her, she's not the authoritarian type at all - is encouraging, saying 'we can go anywhere and do anything in sobriety' i.e. we're no longer imprisoned the way we were. And she's totally cool that I'm much more an agnostic (although highly spiritual - in that unknowing way) than she. At 22 years sober, she's more into exploring 'God's will' in her decision making in the Christian sense. Hence the literature she sent me to help me in my decision making or if necessary, to 'decide not-to-decide just now' as she put it.
I don't have Maya H's book yet nor have read it yet. So, any thoughts from you wonderful co-travellers?
Last edited by bemyself; 09-10-2014 at 02:20 PM. Reason: addition
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Bemyself - ah, so you're going to that conference!! I am happy for you And jealous, lol! I'd like to go but we don't have the extra money right now.
Hmmm, "God's will"... well, I don't know what to say about that I've travelled overseas and it certainly can be anxiety provoking - it was for me! I travelled alone too, so it was even more so. Well, if you've planned your finances around it, can take off work or whatever, then what issue does your sponsor have really? It sounds like one of those decisions that you make based on pros vs. cons, along with the secured finances, the ok to get out of any home and work commitments, etc.
The way I approach the "God's will" thing is I see it in secular terms of letting go of specific consequences once you make a decision to do something. I can make plans to do X, and after looking at all possible consequences that I can imagine in my mind, I then either choose to do X or not, and then "let go" of the desire to control the outcome. I think that's what those people mean by "God's will."
And jealous, lol! I'd like to go but we don't have the extra money right now. Hmmm, "God's will"... well, I don't know what to say about that
I've travelled overseas and it certainly can be anxiety provoking - it was for me! I travelled alone too, so it was even more so. Well, if you've planned your finances around it, can take off work or whatever, then what issue does your sponsor have really? It sounds like one of those decisions that you make based on pros vs. cons, along with the secured finances, the ok to get out of any home and work commitments, etc.The way I approach the "God's will" thing is I see it in secular terms of letting go of specific consequences once you make a decision to do something. I can make plans to do X, and after looking at all possible consequences that I can imagine in my mind, I then either choose to do X or not, and then "let go" of the desire to control the outcome. I think that's what those people mean by "God's will."
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Looks interesting.
My current thoughts on such matters are in early human development. I could be way out there in left field, that happens sometimes
. Here goes.
The universe peoples as Alan Watts said. The big bang formats a recipe for life. Spirituality for lack of a better term is a direct product of frontal lobe development for the warm blooded land dwellers. Ritualistic burials discovered 10,000 30,000 years ago, people were pondering something beyond possible existence. Date that back further maybe 75,000 - 150,000 - 250,000 years ago? Thinking about where do the dead go under a fabulous starry night sky. I could come up with some good ideas had I had existed in that history.
So I'm with the 'exist now' crowd. Its like "here it is" understand/manage how to exist in 'it' without being distressed/consumed by "it". The "it" is just life, as it presents itself. When all else fails then I default to either Zen/Buddhism or CBT, DBT and people, helping people is good.
Where it comes or where it goes it has a flow.
I like to go with the flowing part. It puts on a magnificent show.
My current thoughts on such matters are in early human development. I could be way out there in left field, that happens sometimes
. Here goes.The universe peoples as Alan Watts said. The big bang formats a recipe for life. Spirituality for lack of a better term is a direct product of frontal lobe development for the warm blooded land dwellers. Ritualistic burials discovered 10,000 30,000 years ago, people were pondering something beyond possible existence. Date that back further maybe 75,000 - 150,000 - 250,000 years ago? Thinking about where do the dead go under a fabulous starry night sky. I could come up with some good ideas had I had existed in that history.
So I'm with the 'exist now' crowd. Its like "here it is" understand/manage how to exist in 'it' without being distressed/consumed by "it". The "it" is just life, as it presents itself. When all else fails then I default to either Zen/Buddhism or CBT, DBT and people, helping people is good.
Where it comes or where it goes it has a flow.
I like to go with the flowing part. It puts on a magnificent show.
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Thanks Jennie; you might have mis-read, but I haven't been able to decide whether to go or not, hence my post. My sponsor doesn't have an issue at all if I do decide to go; she's very encouraging, but also knows that I'm struggling with how to decide :-) The snag for me is that she bases her Step recovery on 'God's will' as a test for making her decisions; 'God's will' doesn't gel for me at all.
I guess the only other template I could use currently - together with your own very helpful suggested mode (thanks) - is to do a sort of exploration using Buddhist precepts. Although, time is literally running out - given uncomfortable facts like acquiring a reasonably priced airfare in advance when they're a tad cheaper, not to mention the volatility of the AU-US $ exchange rate. Blah blah etc etc
The great dilemma of the sober alcoholic pathological procrastinator and control-freak, i.e. me! 
I guess the only other template I could use currently - together with your own very helpful suggested mode (thanks) - is to do a sort of exploration using Buddhist precepts. Although, time is literally running out - given uncomfortable facts like acquiring a reasonably priced airfare in advance when they're a tad cheaper, not to mention the volatility of the AU-US $ exchange rate. Blah blah etc etc
The great dilemma of the sober alcoholic pathological procrastinator and control-freak, i.e. me! Member
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If Not Now, When?
Bemyself ~
Back in the Stone Age, this California Native hitchhiked up/down Coast Highway 1 during any College Break I could. Blundered into all sorts of interesting situations, and wouldn't have traded these experiences for the World. However, no one offered me the World.
Here's the Core Deal... Yah, I've been to Oz, and it's not like there's no fantastic places there where the Sea meets Land. However, California is a deeply Spiritual place, including the Thinkers you'd like to experience. Historically, those looking for 'something better' pursued a better Life during the Gold Rush days. Sailed to/from areas like San Francisco. Built 'vertically integrated' Villages/Societies on the Coast, based on Lumber and Fishing. We Natives from there carry the legacy to seek Inner Peace, and welcome new ideas. Along with astounding beauty, this is why places like the Esalen Institute started there. Big Sur is stunning. If Folks can't realize some Personal Insights in settings like my Pic below, perhaps they should just call the local Undertaker and call it a day.
While Esalen per se is not affordable to many, Seekers hang with other Seekers. If you did nothing but rent a Car after doing some Research on line and visit areas of interest up the Coast, you would 'blunder' into some amazing experiences and visionary answers. Disclaimer: I'm not hyping the Esalen Institute; just using it as an example.
I've helped Biz Pals from places like the former East Germany plan U.S. visits. As we've learned ourselves Int'l, scale it back. Don't worry this time around seeing distance places. The fewer the destinations, the better you can focus on what you love.
An old Psych trick is to get a Coin. Assign one decision to one side. Assign the alternate decision to the other Coin side. Flip the Coin. At the apex, you'll either wish for 'Heads' or 'Tails', even though it's you doing the Coin flipping. This is your Inner Voice saying what you really want.
You can sit back some day and wonder 'what if'. Or, you can go. I understand there's some obstacles to overcome, as you detail. Perhaps overcoming them is part of the Lesson you're being handed?
My Grandpa hung out in the SoCal Desert with the Builder of The Integratron. Builder George Van Tassel saw a number of UFOs while flying high performance Airplanes, and wanted to summon them to Earth. Hanging with other Free Thinkers is just how we Californians roll...
A running joke I make about myself [since you mention it, too]: 'Putting the 'Pro' back in 'Procrastination'. See my Post Title above.
The Esalen Institute ~ Wiki
The Integratron
History Of The Integratron
------
Back in the Stone Age, this California Native hitchhiked up/down Coast Highway 1 during any College Break I could. Blundered into all sorts of interesting situations, and wouldn't have traded these experiences for the World. However, no one offered me the World.
Here's the Core Deal... Yah, I've been to Oz, and it's not like there's no fantastic places there where the Sea meets Land. However, California is a deeply Spiritual place, including the Thinkers you'd like to experience. Historically, those looking for 'something better' pursued a better Life during the Gold Rush days. Sailed to/from areas like San Francisco. Built 'vertically integrated' Villages/Societies on the Coast, based on Lumber and Fishing. We Natives from there carry the legacy to seek Inner Peace, and welcome new ideas. Along with astounding beauty, this is why places like the Esalen Institute started there. Big Sur is stunning. If Folks can't realize some Personal Insights in settings like my Pic below, perhaps they should just call the local Undertaker and call it a day.
While Esalen per se is not affordable to many, Seekers hang with other Seekers. If you did nothing but rent a Car after doing some Research on line and visit areas of interest up the Coast, you would 'blunder' into some amazing experiences and visionary answers. Disclaimer: I'm not hyping the Esalen Institute; just using it as an example.
I've helped Biz Pals from places like the former East Germany plan U.S. visits. As we've learned ourselves Int'l, scale it back. Don't worry this time around seeing distance places. The fewer the destinations, the better you can focus on what you love.
An old Psych trick is to get a Coin. Assign one decision to one side. Assign the alternate decision to the other Coin side. Flip the Coin. At the apex, you'll either wish for 'Heads' or 'Tails', even though it's you doing the Coin flipping. This is your Inner Voice saying what you really want.
You can sit back some day and wonder 'what if'. Or, you can go. I understand there's some obstacles to overcome, as you detail. Perhaps overcoming them is part of the Lesson you're being handed?
My Grandpa hung out in the SoCal Desert with the Builder of The Integratron. Builder George Van Tassel saw a number of UFOs while flying high performance Airplanes, and wanted to summon them to Earth. Hanging with other Free Thinkers is just how we Californians roll...
A running joke I make about myself [since you mention it, too]: 'Putting the 'Pro' back in 'Procrastination'. See my Post Title above.
The Esalen Institute ~ Wiki
The Integratron
History Of The Integratron
------
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Do the coin toss, Bemyself
I'm agreeing with MesaMan here... if not now, when? And there will be the "what if" to haunt you if you don't.
I missed a chance to travel to Ireland once, and then to NYC on New Year's with an Irishman! I'm still hearing the "what ifs" in my head!
Sounds like you really do want to go, why not make the effort and just go?
I'm agreeing with MesaMan here... if not now, when? And there will be the "what if" to haunt you if you don't.
I missed a chance to travel to Ireland once, and then to NYC on New Year's with an Irishman! I'm still hearing the "what ifs" in my head!
Sounds like you really do want to go, why not make the effort and just go?
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Aw gee, thanks guys...for the carpe diem encouragement, and the unsubtle urgings to see Big Sur etc MesaMan
Now, off for my afternoon nana nap. Apols for hi-jacking your thread about Maya H's book, Sober Jennie - is just the whole topic (and mention of her re the convention) was so timely.
Now, off for my afternoon nana nap. Apols for hi-jacking your thread about Maya H's book, Sober Jennie - is just the whole topic (and mention of her re the convention) was so timely.
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Originally Posted by bemyself 
Aw gee, thanks guys...for the carpe diem encouragement, and the unsubtle urgings to see Big Sur etc MesaMan
Now, off for my afternoon nana nap. Apols for hi-jacking your thread about Maya H's book, Sober Jennie - is just the whole topic (and mention of her re the convention) was so timely.
Now, off for my afternoon nana nap. Apols for hi-jacking your thread about Maya H's book, Sober Jennie - is just the whole topic (and mention of her re the convention) was so timely.
Was appropriate!
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