HitRockBottom70

I am over 10 months sober and I had a breakdown last week. I decided doing this on my own with no face to face support is too hard. I am lonely and no one in my life really understands. Even my partner said "I don't think you had that bad of a problem". This coming from someone who thought I was going to die on May 11 last year from alcohol poisoning.

So last Thursday was my breaking point. I decided I was going to an AA meeting. I also called to get the number of a podiatrist and somehow got connected to my Employee assistance program. Talk about fate... So I went with it and said I needed some help working through personal issues. Today I had my first therapy session.

The reason I write is because I am having a very hard time with the word "God". My first meeting was a meditation meeting and it was beautiful and felt right. Since then, I have not felt like I belonged. Can anyone help me with ideas of how to find a group that is accepting and vocalizes "higher power of our own understanding". The first part of the big book I read was "We agnostics", and even that seemed very preachy. I am sorry if this offends some, it is not meant to. I believe in a higher power, but not organized religion or anything that comes close.

I also am wondering if anyone can help me reconcile AVRT and AA. I quit with the help and thought pattern of AVRT. I Will never drink again, ever, and do whatever it takes to make that my reality without ever changing my mind. This promise to myself does not fill the voids left in my life. That is why I am trying AA and therapy. If anyone has used both tools to get sober, please give me some pointers.

Also a huge favor, please do not use this thread to bash each others programs. I want to somehow meld the two into something that works for me.

awuh1

I hear ya HRB. IMO when people use the word “God” in AA it typically comes very close to meaning “A higher power as I understand that higher power”. I have met very few who are interested in pushing their version of “God” on anyone else. It fact what many people mean by the ‘G’ word in AA is often a real head scratcher. Some mean Good Orderly Direction and others mean Group Of Drunks. There are endless variations. Some peoples ‘God’ is simply a force while others have a highly ‘personal’ God.

What another believes does not need to affect you, unless you let it.

My take on ‘God’ when I came to AA was agnostic and leaning heavily toward atheist. At one point someone asked me if I believed anything was more powerful than I was. My reply was “sure gravity”. His response was “that’s a start”. It was indeed all I needed to begin to work the steps.

If you keep an open mind, I believe that actually DOING the steps will fill most if not all of that void you experience.

I take no offence at your remarks. In fact I have a great deal of respect for your view. NOBODY has THE answer.... but that hasn’t stopped me from looking.

HitRockBottom70

You are right, and it is still early on. I am way out of my element and definitely overly sensitive.

How many groups did you check out?

awuh1

When I first started going to AA I went to as many different groups as I could. I’m fortunate to have a VERY wide spectrum of people attending meetings in my area. The key for me was to find just a few people I could learn something from. The ones that were the most helpful to me were generally people who held back a little. They tended to speak only when they felt they had something worthwhile to say. They were often the ones who spoke most honestly, and spoke from the heart.

I stuck close to a handful of them. They saved my A$$.

I was also very sensitive in the beginning. It’s good you can see that. You may then be able to cut them some slack when necessary. They’ll be cutting you some.

All the best to you.

Boleo

This is a secular 12 step forum because there are other people here who have worked the 12 steps without the G-word and have gotten results in spite of there non-confority. All you need to do is find an alternative to the G-word. Such as;

Group Of Drunks
Good Orderly Direction
Gift Of Desperation
Path - As in
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our PATH.
The Way - As in the Tao
The great Spirit - As In the Manito
The collective unconscious of Carl Jung
The built in intelligence of the Universe

Zencat

I too have in the past had a hard time with AA's God/HP concept of spirituality. Once I understood that I did not need to have the same spiritual understanding of God/HP as AA's BB authors, I was well on my way to a better life w/o alcohol.

As an atheist member of AA I decided to follow what [1] Jimmy B did. For the purpose of working the steps, I align myself with the power (HP) to do and be GOOD.

I also use proven psychological therapy principles like AVRT (for me, I incorporate into my life; REBT, CBT and DBT) along with AA. AA and therapy techniques blend together well for me. As Jimmy B said "by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady", is the same for me. By tuning into my better self as described in the BB page 55 [2] "We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us." I'm able to tune to my better-self (Great Reality) or as I say develop healthy life skills that release the inherent good within me. That is to be God like. As I do not see myself separate from a HP, as I'm interconnected with God or an HP.


[1] Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps was an atheist that went to his grave with 3 decades of sobriety in AA.
He wrote:[2] All Big Book quotes are from first Edition

shockozulu

Hi, although religious, my HP is the atoms that make up the universe and the force that brought it to be (most likely the big bang although that is still theory). If I'm having a crisis of faith it doesn't interfere with my NA program because my HP doesn't have to be my God. I do hear more about God in AA than NA but it doesn't matter to me. The man across the table may profess his belief in Christ, that proves to me how inclusive this program is that we can both sit at the same table, work the same steps and remain sober.

You won't find program bashing here if for no other reason than enough of us, including me, work multiple programs (NA and SMART Recovery here)

HitRockBottom70

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. I am taking in all your words and they are helping me greatly. I just got done with a 13 hour shift and have 2 more to go. This weekend I will hit another meeting and maybe meet with a member and go over the steps.

RobbyRobot

Hi HitRockBottom,

Drinking from age 12, and at age 24, I finally sobered up as an agnostic. My HP is not a God. My recovery is not religious, and never will be. Personally, I'm now a Christian by faith. I do practice AA program in my life, and I make use of AVRT skills too, as well as Gestalt therapy, and recovery fellowship as required. I quit back in 1981, still going strong. I'm a recovered alcoholic drug addict.

What is it you'd like to know more about AA / AVRT working for YOU in YOUR life? Perhaps I can help?

HitRockBottom70

Robby,
For me, AVRT was the right program/ idea set to help me quit. I have been doing well with not drinking using the tools. I guess I thought I would stop drinking and everything would magically fall into place. Well, it has not. Far from it. Life is painful and extremely hard at times without my old numbing agent. Maybe that's AV, but I can remember thinking this way long before I started drinking. It's also very lonely doing this on my own. I think AA might be able to help me with a way to live happier. I was not sure about it so I also got a therapist. I know I need to make some major changes in my thinking/living.
My questions about AA/AVRT are did you mention your use of AVRT To people in the group? I also feel weird about my 10.5 months without AA. They pass out chips and ask if anyone has 10 months. I have not raised my hand and picked one up. Ive only been to 5 meetings and feel like the chips are for those that have been contributing in AA. Am I wrong? Also there is so much back and forth between people who believe what is written in the books to be "the truth". I have always loved the idea of AA, "take what you need and leave the rest". I learned this my first day on SR and it has helped me along my way many times. I guess I just want to hear others that reconcile the two programs and that it is OK and possibly very healthy to do.
I am on the rocky road to recovery, and that voice in my head just spins like crazy. I remember when I first quit a major question of mine was "what do I tell people?" I saw that as a major problem...in my own head. It turned out not to be nearly as big a deal as I had made it. I am probably doing the same thing here. I hope to look back at this time months from now with a lot more clarity. But right now...that clarity is not here. I am having a hard time even asking the questions because I don't have enough experience with AA.

fini

HRB,
hi,
and wow can i relate to what you're asking/talking about. only i'm a bit farther along, at a few years after an entirely secular recovery, involving nothing ostensibly greater than me, only...well, yes, i'm thinking the steps have a lot to recommend them. this is coming from a person who staunchly believed she'd die a drinking drunk if she had to go to AA to quit. so...enormous change is possible.
i've been to about twenty or so different AA meetings, and get blank looks if i'm asked to share and briefly mention i got sober somewhere else and that i'm still sober years later.
seems it would be more acceptable or understandable to folks if i were white-knuckling . but i'm not.
i think i know what you mean about the steps having something to offer that helps with the rest of life, the living of it.

anyway, still looking.
and just rambling.
yes, belonging is important. very much so, to me.

a couple of years ago on my secular forum i had a conversation with my best buddy there about groups, and belonging, and was totally stunned when he more-or-less non-chalantly mentioned that he picks the groups that appeal to him and that it's he who decides if he belongs there or not. even if "they" don't necessarily give off those vibes. he was speaking about Christian religious groups at the time, but i haven't forgotten the "i belong with you guys whether you think so or not" stance. it has given me lots to think about. lots to look for in a different light, in light of seeing the space instead of the restriction.
something like that.


and if you haven't read Robby's "Robby's thread" in "secular connections", well, do cause he talks about his own way of combining AVRT and AA a bit there

RobbyRobot

AVRT itself has no opinions on making or creating lifestyle choices as we progress in our lives without drinking alcohol. AVRT simply helps us successfully and permanently quit. End of story. Since you believe, and feel, you want more, you're in an ideal position to enjoy what AA and therapy both have to offer to more enrich peoples lives relative to their addiction challenges. Where AVRT ends, AA can begin, is a simplistic, and strongly practical way to think of the two "ways" for me anyways, as an example. I don't really combine them together, for me, they don't really play well with each other, is my experience. This does not mean they both can't be fully utilized, it just means they have very different goals from start to finish, imo.

I'm an authentic successful AA member, AA sober, and an AA defined alcoholic, no matter what else I may or may not use in my personal lifestyle choices going forward. It's entirely my own business. I've also no axe to grind with AA, and I don't care in the least what rhetoric AVRT may offer against AA either: I simply don't care how bad any bodies else experience may have been with AA before they discovered AVRT. Their experiences are not at all the experiences I have had with AA, and I'm also able to use AVRT as well, so what's there not to like, lol?

SO, absolutely feel very confident you can have both AA and AVRT in your sober life, and therapy too, as much as you may desire, no problemo. Others who naysay against my positive and fulfilling experiences simply don't know what they are talking about when they talk about their experiences in relation to mine.

The same will be for you too, HitRockBottom. Take it as a backward compliment when they challenge your veracity. (And you will be challenged. You don't have to call those challenges problems though. Its really just their rhetoric, is all. No big deal. Smile, and just get on with being YOU.)

How you talk about whatever at an AA meeting can often times be considered outside business, and I kept most of my private life out of AA discussions. I enjoyed doing step-work, and speaker meetings. A lot of my AA growth came from smaller, personal and private coffee meetings we held just after the "official" meetings.

One of the greatest advantages of practicing AA is the complete freedom we have to be ourselves, and approach the 12 steps with that well seated in your mind. AA really is about YOU. On the other hand, AVRT is really just about a creative and effective thinking technique to more easily quit drinking alcohol now and forever.

AA for me, is NOT one day at a time either. For many AA's it is about ODAAT, but not for all members. Many of us have quit forever, and we simply live our lives one day at a time, because there really is no other way to live a life, except in real time, a day at a time. I've been thru hell and high water, and I've never returned to drinking in 30+ years. I am permanently sober, lol. So much for the rhetoric of ODAAT.

I've received ALL of the promises which AA promises for those who continually desire to enjoy those promises. All too often, folks give up way to soon, and they become frustrated with the results of practicing AA program. Me, I stuck with it, and as the months, and years, and decades have passed, the promises keep being fulfilled. Way awesome!

Gratitude and simplicity, thankfulness and service given for others benefits really has given back to me much more then I ever expected. As you help yourself, lend a hand likewise to others, and YOUR life will increase in so many ways. Just pay it forward. That simple.

Well, its late here in Ottawa, and I hope I've shared enough to encourage you to continue with your lifestyle choices for AA, AVRT, and therapy. All three "ways" rock!!

Good night, and cheers!

HitRockBottom70

You certainly did, and I thank you. I am really excited about the possibilities.

I thank you all so much for helping me wrap my mind around everything.

fini

RR, huh? you enjoyed doing step-work?

don't think i've ever heard of such a possibility....

RobbyRobot

Sure, fini. 12th step work is enjoyable. I didn't mean to suggest each and every step is enjoyable, lol.

shockozulu

I find step work enjoyable. I like the new me coming through that's it worth it.


Chips are for continuing lengths of sobriety. Period. I'll be picking up an NA keychain even though I don't go to that meeting frequently. They are just happy to see someone get time. Think how a newcomer feels. You are a step between them and the cake people. I used to go up to the people picking up monthly chips as I thought they were more approachable

I work SMART/NA so I don't see why a person couldn't work RR/AA.

What gets and keeps you clean and sober is what matters. I've brought up SMART in meeting after the meeting once in a blue moon if its appropriate

LadyinBC

I go to Women for Sobriety meetings and I've also started the Smart, they only have these once a week where I live. I also do attend some AA meetings as there is always a meeting available morning, noon or night. I get something out of all the programs. As for the god thing in AA i find that some people use their kids, the people in the rooms, etc as there higher power.

For me, I try to be as open as possible to all programs, knowledge is power and I don't want to box myself in to one program.

Coldfusion

I like the NA program. The literature is very different, written with a completely different voice and tone. Also, a lot of drug addicts have experienced a "lower bottom" (eg, experiences with jails, institutions, and death), so you may find very different people at NA meetings.

Alcohol is a drug.

HitRockBottom70

So, I guess I am on step 3. My first day sober I admitted that I am powerless over alcohol after I take the first sip (which I never plan on doing again! And have total power over, thanks AVRT). At 10.5 months I came to believe that a higher power could restore my sanity (no, not Christian GOD, but mother earth or universal energy).

3. Make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him/her. Yes, I had to add "her". My HP is more of a mother earth or mother universe.

How do I make step 3 work in a secular way?
What book work or exercises would be helpful?

Thanks

Coldfusion

I did a lot of reading around here at SR, not only in this section of the forum but others too.

I bought a copy of the NA "12 & 12" book and use it ,but the Zen take on the steps is really great. The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com I printed it and take it to my sponsor meetings and make my sponsor listen to me read it!