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Question for the recovered addicts

Old 05-23-2012, 09:18 PM
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Question for the recovered addicts

My bf is an opiate addict. He was on OCs for a while and then escalated to shooting H. Got clean off that but only by substituting it with alcohol and snorting Adderall. Then felt like relapsing and instead started scoring subutex from a friend. He eventually started going to a doc for a script. He convinced his doc to prescribe subutex instead of suboxone. He's been snorting the subutex in large quantities. Buying more on top of what his doc prescribes. He's recently decided to get clean and detox this weekend. He says he's doing it for himself because he wants to be clean. But, he's certainly not in a joyful place about it. I've made it clear that I'm leaving him if he doesn't get clean immediately. His best friend is refusing to talk to him until hes clean. I think he feels forced into this, which is fine by me as long as he gets clean. We have a daughter and he needs to be clean for her if nothing else.

Anyway, tonight he started spouting off that me and everyone else need to realize that he will be the same person clean as he is right now although he will have a lower tolerance for our "BS". So I'd better get that through my head because he certainly won't be going to meetings or continue to see his therapist.

Are these merely the rantings of an addict or am I holding out hope for nothing? If he does get clean, is this a relapse waiting to happen? I just need to prepare myself for what's to come and I'm looking for input from anyone who has been there and back. Right now, he is an angry guy with a lot of resentment towards me and I hope that this doesn't continue to be the way things go.
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:11 AM
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Learningtodeal,
You may want to learn to leave and not look back. His behavior is indicative of someone who does not want help and it only makes things WAAAY worse when he has someone who sticks around for HIS convenience.
Fellow SR fellow, please chime in.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:52 AM
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Thanks for your response. It's definitely on the table as an option if this doesn't work or even if it does work and he continues to be this angry and resentful. Probably 15 minutes after I wrote this, his tune changed completely, became super lovey, and started telling me that the real reason he was getting clean was so I wouldn't leave him. His moods are all over the place within minutes. Please keep in mind that he has stopped being able to play me throughout this and im able to remain pretty flat with my responses and just tell him that he needs to be clean before we can figure anything out or else I'm leaving. He knows I'm serious this time and have already put everything in place to walk away. But, his moodiness, and anger, then attachment, lack of willingness to participate in meetings or therapy (or so he says as of now)... Is this something that I can continue to expect once hes clean or are these just addictive behaviors? Just wondering if anyone has any insight. Thanks.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:40 AM
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He is scared. He doesn't want to quit for himself as he said he is doing it for you. I know he initially said he wants it, but addicts lie - lie - and lie some more. That is what we do when we feel threatened. It sounds like he is still a long way away from truly wanting recovery.

Being on the fence is not a good place to be and you can expect more moodiness. It will actually get a bit worse when he quits because he does not have his crutch anymore. So yes you can probably continue to expect more of the same until he makes a real commitment. It doesn't have to be meetings, but seeing a therapist or going to rehab (inpatient or outpatient) and talking to other recovered addicts is important as he tries to figure out how to live day to day without falling back to drugs.

It is tough because you have a child together, but you need to be prepared to move on with your life without him. I am not telling you to run, but am warning you you are most likely in for a wild ride and not a fun one at that. My wife went through 5 years of hell with me. I would get her hopes up for a few months only to smash them over and over again. It was like grieving a death again and again. All of the manipulation and lies and disappointment mess up the partner or spouse almost as much as the addict. I suggest you try Alanon or a therapist for yourself. You don't deserve to have to live like that. Sorry for your pain. I hope it works out, but the odds are against you.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:46 AM
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Thanks for your honesty. I need to hear this. I've been supportive (aka enabling) for quite a while now. I've just started with my own Naranon meetings so I'm in a better place now than I've ever been and I fight off the urge to be optimistic. I don't like to demonize him because I realize this is a tremendous struggle on his part, but I also know that I'm not doing anyone (including him, but mostly my daughter) any favors by sticking around. So, I'm ready to walk if this doesn't work. Thanks again.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:51 AM
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Marcus has good advice there.
You see, in my personal experience, When a person hits a low and wants to quit, they tell themselves it's time to quit. Problem is, the brain has been rewired and when you take away the meds, there is a "flight or fright" response. THe brain goes into this PANIC MODE and tells you NEED MEDS!!!!!!!!
An addict is the best lier in the entire world. Deception becomes that persons main mental strength.
Only a determined and dedicated person can stop the process. No one on earth can make that person stop except him/herself - Well, that and being locked up behind bars.
You have a MAJOR life choice ahead of you and no one but yourself can make that decision. It's my only hope that you do what's right for YOU and your Child. Nothing or no one else matters but the well being of you two at this point. *IF* BF is not willing to make the sacrifice and sit on the fence, run.
*IF* BF extends an honest and dedicated hand out for help, then you will know what to do. Keep in mind, during the recovery phase - NOTHING can be left to guess!
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:10 PM
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Yes, I guess that's where I struggle. I have hard time differentiating an honest effort from a deceptively honest effort. I would imagine that continuing with his therapist is a bare minimum. I just don't want to find myself supporting someone who is just hiding his addiction so he can have his cake and eat it too. I guess that's why I'm asking this question in the first place. I hear him say that he's going to get clean then handle the recovery independent of professional help and I KNOW that's a recipe for disaster. So, I'm just trying to gauge how much of this is being said because he's still an active addict and doesn't have the clarity to see how damaging his current behavior has been. I'm hopeful that the sobriety will give him this clarity. Is the paradigm shift immediate once the drugs exit his system? Am I going to see a new him after detox or just more of the same? I'm not willing to deal with a "dry drunk" anymore than I am an active addict.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Learningtodeal View Post
Thanks for your honesty. I need to hear this. I've been supportive (aka enabling) for quite a while now. I've just started with my own Naranon meetings so I'm in a better place now than I've ever been and I fight off the urge to be optimistic. I don't like to demonize him because I realize this is a tremendous struggle on his part, but I also know that I'm not doing anyone (including him, but mostly my daughter) any favors by sticking around. So, I'm ready to walk if this doesn't work. Thanks again.
Glad to hear you are working on yourself. It sounds like you are not enabling him anymore and that is very important. I am not trying to scare you and there are success stories, but it is probably going to get harder before it gets easier.

My wife finally started setting boundaries and no you can't force a person to quit, but you can quit enabling them. Dealing with an addict is difficult. Looking the other way is bad, but so is riding them or belittling them and making false threats.

If we didn't have 3 kids and my wife kept reminding herself for better or for worse she probably would have left. She did finally say to me that I can't live in the house or be around the kids if I am using. Now she had said that in the past, but this time she meant it and stood her ground. Sure I could have fought her on it, but I knew she was right. I found myself living out of a hotel and yes for the first few days there was a small feeling of freedom, but the guilt and remorse was eating me alive.

I went into an outpatient program. This after being in 2 outpatients, 1 inpatient, 6 detoxes, a half-way house, and who knows how many hundred AA/NA meetings already. Something was different though. I made up my mind I was not going to live like that anymore. I wanted a better life for myself. My integrity was zero and I hated myself. I was the father of 3 small children and a junky who blew 30K of their college money and another 250K plus in home equity / credit cards / you name it on H and pills.

I opened up more. Found a therapist who really understood what I was going through. Started loving my job again (which I swore I hated) and truly loved spending time with my wife and kids. I always used to be pre-occupied when I was with them. I was there physically, but mentally I was trapped in my head. Thinking about my next high or how much I had left or when I could get more or where was the money going to come from. It was like hell on earth. I couldn't even enjoy the stuff anymore because I had so much guilt plus I had the tolerance of an elephant. Felt like I was being crushed.

Anyway sorry to go off on a tangent. Just brings back some memories - so glad those days are over. I can go back there at any time, but today I choose not to.

First things first. Take care of you. Take care of your daughter. Kids need consistency/security and not having a dad around stinks, but having an addict dad around with all that brings with it is much worse. Good Luck!!!
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:12 PM
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Marcus, it sounds like you've been through hell and back, but it took finally wanting it for it to stick. You should be very proud of yourself.

I keep reading things about the "addictive mind" and yes, anvil head, he's quite an a**. No argument there. But, aren't all actively using addicts? Thoughtless, selfish, lying, master manipulators? Yes, hes still using the subutex, but nothing else that i know of. I had this idea in my head that he would have some insight once the drugs left the building. But, Marcus, it sounds like you're saying the insight has to come first before the real changes can occur, before even the sobriety. If so, then it is truly a helpless situation for now anyway. Because his insight is practically non-existent minus tiny glimpses very rarely. Not enough to count.

I fear he's going to have to leave before the message is finally in his head that I'm done with this life even if he isn't. Thankfully, I'm finally prepared to do that. I've prepared for everything, including the fact that I will probably have to be supported financially by my bf's father when my bf gets kicked out and stops supporting us. My income isn't enough to support us which is at least half the reason I've stuck around this long.

I still can't get the hopefulness out of my head, but I guess only time will tell. You know what they say, hope for the best and prepare for the worst. That's about where I am right now! He'll be in for a shock if he thinks I'm bluffing. But, I think he finally gets that this is the end of the road. I've stopped the belittling, nagging, emotional blackmail. If he doesn't catch up with my progress, then he'll pay the price and that's all on him. I have NO guilt.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:23 PM
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LTD,
I hit bottom last year. My "bottom" wasn't as low and most get though. You see, I had been taking pain meds for several serious orthopedic issues. I won't go in tot he laundry list of them all but I can assure you "I got problems".
After taking these meds for a couple of years I knew I was dependent on them and then later realized I was addicted to them. Of course I wasn't doing physical therapy and doing all the other things I should have... Instead I just took a pill and life went on. Then last year I realized I needed to get off these damned pills and see if the pain was still really there. Well, I took myself off without the doctors help and then ended up going to the ER 3 days later because I was going Mad from the W/D and sleep deprivation. Before I went to the ER, I told my wife why I was feeling so horrible and that I was dependent on these meds. Now, she knew I took pain meds for my condition but she had no idea the to the extent of which. I was taking 80mg of Oxymorphone and day! That's enough to take down a friggin horse!

My wife's reaction was mixed. Her first reaction was a little sympathy but her next was somewhat of disgust. I instantly knew the disgust look in her face. She didn't have to say another word!
I was damned determined though to do this and despite my fighting it tooth and nail, the W/D kicked my ass senseless!
Going to the ER was a disaster!!!!!! They treated me as if I was a street junkie!
Anyway- another story for another day!

The next day my Pain mgm Doctors office called me... A week later mind you, and I explained EVERYTHING to my Docotr. Of course he was SERIOUSLY pissed off that his staff never informed him that I called the week before about getting off... OK, Another story...
Anyway, we had a long talk about things and he wrote me scripts for the sleep and anxiety issues. After about 10 days of being off the pain meds, I finally felt somewhat normal and didn't have the anxiety I had the previous days. By week 4 I was sleeping somewhat normal WITHOUT sleep meds. By week 6 I was doing ok but in a lot of pain. I went back to my pain mgm doctor and while I did go back on pain meds.... They were no where near what I was taking.
Now, that whole thing started Jan before last. This Jan I did the same thing all over again but stopped my meds all together. I did things way different this time though. I changed my diet, lost some weight, and forced *FORCED* myself to go to the gym every day! Well, after 6 weeks of the gym, my pain got worse. I lost weight and got a lot of muscle tone back but the pain was still there. So - plan "B". I stopped killing myself at the gym and started bicycling every day.
I have LOTS of good and GREAT days but if I over do it, yes I have to take something for pain. I have a whole bottle of pain meds in the medicine cabinet and I haven't touched one in over 10 days. THe meds are no hidden, they are in plain site of my wife FOR A REASON!
I love my wife more than anything on this earth and I NEVER want to disappoint her ever again. I love and respect her so much, I do the "hard" thing by living better instead of just popping a pill.
The point of my story is that my love and respect for my wife trumps everything else. I would die for her and damn near felt like it when I quit the first time.
Look, I'm going to give you some pointers here to help you out to know if he's using or not.
Mood swings - Going from really irritated to elated... He's using.
Stays up late but sleeps way in - probably using.
Weird energy levels - Like wakes up feeling like crap but then all of a sudden he's ready to go...He's using.
Sit's there watching TV with a blank stare... probably using!

Watch his finances
Watch his mood

Most of all, watch out for YOU!

P.S. Going to a doctor and asking for help does two things... One -Makes him admit he has a problem! Two - allows him to get medical help that will get him through the initial W/D phase which can be a living hell. A doctor's help will dramatically increase his odds of getting through.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:28 PM
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I will write more later, but not every case is the same. Otherwise the same treatment would work for everyone. There are usually more similarities than differences. If he is snorting subutex that is in no way recovery and the drugs still have not left the building as you put it. It is just transfering addictions. Now if he was taking it as prescribed (and his doctor has him on a reasonable dose) and taking other steps towards recovery that is a start.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:33 PM
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Marcus is 100% correct - EVERYONE is different That is why it is SOOOOOO important to see a doctor for help. Only a doctor can make medical decisions based on that individual.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:10 PM
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Yes, he's traded addictions for as long as I've known him. He used alcohol to get off coke, then relapsed, then crack, then used Percs to get off crack, then moved on to OC and heroin, then back to alcohol and Adderall, then back to OC until here we are finally at overuse and abuse of subutex. He has never been completely alcohol and drug free for as long as I've known him. I was fooled into thinking he was a recovered coke addict when I met him and he also barely even drank. Come to find out that I was his drug of choice at that point.

He knows he has a problem, but he's known that for years. He says this is different because he never REALLY wanted to get clean before now, but he doesn't realize I've heard that one before too. I believe him that he wants to get clean (in an abstract sense), but I don't believe that he knows how bad off he actually is. During his brief sobrieties in the past, he was always a smart, insightful guy (or at least fooled me into thinking he understood the damaging effects of his addiction). But, that's long gone. Thats what is making me see that this is likely not the end. I'm giving him this chance to do the right thing so that I can know that I've truly given him every chance (which is quite ridiculous since I've given him 100s of chances already), but this is what I need for me. I need to know that I even gave this much. I was given some advice to pack a bag for me and my daughter before the detox begins, which I intend to do. I've also made some backup plans for a place for us to stay if the s*** hits the fan during the detox itself. Even that is more than I should be doing. I get that.

He tried to go to a detox program a few months ago and was told by the hospital that insurance would only pay if you were detoxing from opiates and even then the detox center's solution is to prescribe suboxone. Since he's asking for a suboxone/subutex detox, that's not going to work. That's when he started going to the psych who planned to wean him down but he lacks the self-control for a slow process that involves taking progressively smaller amounts. Thus, cold turkey at home.

Thanks to everyone whos responded to my questions. I needed the reality check and i appreciate the honesty. I know this has about a 0.1% chance of long term success and only slightly higher percentage for him to even get through the next week without using. I just now have to put my plan in place for my response to this failure. I know he will move out, but that's as far as I've gotten so far.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:10 PM
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Good luck and Godspeed... We're here for you. That's what we do.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:46 AM
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Thanks so much for all your help. I'll try to keep you posted and I'll focus on his actions to see if any progress is made.
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Old 05-26-2012, 08:28 AM
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I sure hope you are useing some type of birth control.
Most defintely this is no time for another child.

hope all this works out to benefit the 3 of you...
Me? I would have left long ago.
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:43 AM
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I am going to play devil's advocate on this one. IMHO the train needs to slow down on this one. This is probably not going to be what you want to hear, but I think you should at least get one person's perspective that is different.

Leaving him, or threatening to leave him, now doesn't make sense to me. Your man was in it way over his head from the sound of things, yet he was able to kick the OCs and H. You stayed by him then, and he was still able to stop his use. I say "still" because you are worried about being an "enabler", and it sounds like you blame yourself (at least partially) for his problem.

Now he is on subtex, which is troubling to you because he is still abusing them by not taking the medication as prescribed. Is it the fact that he is snorting them that is bothering you so much or the fact that he is buying additional meds on the side? Or is it simply the fact that he is still using anything?

The reason that I ask is because it is very difficult to get any sort of high off of subtex (unless he is IVing them). I can't speak from experience, but even IVing subtex isn't going to be anything compared to H or even OCs. My point is that even though he is snorting them (in large quantities) he should still be able to function - i.e. go to work, help around the house, etc. If he is nodding out all the time then he may still be using H, OCs, or some other full agonist opiate. I am not in his mind, but if I were in his shoes I would feel like a ex-bank robber getting his balls busted for jaywalking.

While he is still technically "abusing" it honestly sounds like he is in a much better place that he was in the past. I am not trying to condone his actions, and not trying to talk you out of being upset about them. What if he was going to a methadone clinic everyday and had to stay on methadone maintenance for the rest of his life? For some people that is the only way that they can live their lives, but they are fully functioning members of society. Would you be able to accept that?

All of that said, if you have done your research on subtex and maintenence in general and you know that you can't live with it then I would try the following. Go to him and ask him in a genuine, sincere voice what you can possibly do to help him stop. Tell him that you will do anything in your power to help him, and mean it. At this point it is likely that he wants to quit, but he is scared of the withdrawls. If he isn't then he should be, because subtex is no joke to kick. Ask him what a realistic timeframe is. You have to transition from the role of someone that he feels is nagging to someone who is a partner on his side trying to help him stop.

Finally, you should tell him no matter what happens you will love him and that you are on his side. There is always hope no matter what.

This is just the 2 cents of an ex-IV H junkie.
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:21 PM
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Opio, well said and very well intentioned. However, I think the rest of us are thinking more about the child in this situation. The welfare of the child in the relationship trumps all. IMHO, I would think that that would be enough for the guy to straighten out for his child's sake. Having a woman at his side who stays "for the sake of the child" only enables and emboldens an addicts behavior.
BELIEVE me when I say I know all about addiction and how it affects one's behavior. I also know what it takes to change that behavior to.
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:25 PM
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Opio welcome. Glad to hear you are an ex IV junkie as am I. I am not going to argue with your opinion because that is what we do here, but saying you can't get any sort of high off subtex unless IVing it is incorrect. Sure it is not the same as H or OCs, but it is sold on the street and abused by many. If you are opiate free for a few weeks and then snort a large dose or even take it sublingually you will get high. I have seen quite a few people nod out on Subutex / Suboxone including myself and I could shoot 2 grams of raw a day. It has a strength 20X of OC and 10X of H. Yes the euphoria is less and longer half life, but it is powerful and has a high abuse potential if not used correctly. I am not against sub and it has helped many people, but if an alcoholic went from drinking a half gallon of vodka a day to 10 beers or some Valium and was not making any other attempt at recovery there is still a big problem. This is a recovery website so I have probably already said too much, but I just don't want to give people the idea that abusing some other drug that doesn't have the same stigma as your drug of choice is a step in the right direction. His doctor prescribed it and if he was taking it as prescribed ok, but he is not even close to taking it as directed. Playing doctor is dangerous.
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:19 PM
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Thanks for correcting me on the subtex abuse point. I only used suboxone in the past and was the furthest thing from a few weeks clean when taking it. I am not trying to condone the subtex abuse, and I understand that abstinence should be the goal. Also, the situation is compounded because he has a history of replacing one drug for another.

As far as the situation with the welfare of his child goes, I would make the following observation. If I was in his shoes (i.e. still in active addiction) and was left after I kicked OC and H, but got on the subtex it would be easy for the addict mentality to talk me back into the H. The internal dialougue would be something like "Well, she has left me already and I don't have a prayer of getting of this stuff. I have tried kicking 100 times and I am a lifer now. It is something I have accepted, and I just wish she would. I might as well go back to banging H, and make the most of it (everyone else be damned)." What if she leaves and he does go back to H and ODs? That is the worst case scenario to be avoided at all costs.

For me that internal dialogue had to get to "the path I am on is no longer manageable...I am at the end of the rope and I have to choose between quitting or death" before I could muster the willpower to get through the withdrawals. Everyone is different so maybe getting left would change things for other people. For me, I think it would have made things worse.
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