ZACHk

spirituality.... wel this is a hard topic because i dont have a higher power or god. i dont loook up to anybody. i lost my higher power when i was in fifth grade and started using. how wil i get a spiritual awakening what are some things that can cause one

FT

Zach,

Have you checked out the secular connections portion of this forum?

There are 12 step programs for people who are not religious. If you prefer to go outside of that structure, check out AVRT.

I am not religious, but I consider myself spiritual. I don't do 12 steps, but I have been to them. I think there are ways to recovery for everyone.

Check out all the forums and see what seems like a fit for you.

FT

larrylive

Spirituality...all you got to do is believe. What you believe is up to you. Billions of people over thousands of years, surely there must be something to it.

Do you believe in gravity? Have you ever seen gravity? Can you explain how it works?
And what about light? Surely you have seen the light and probably feel a little insecure or unsure without it. But can you explain how light works? With all the wonderous things around us that we can't explain or live without, why do people find it so difficult to believe in something "more". Not neccessarily something controlling everything, but something beneficial, like hope and love and kindness. Intangible concepts that only add to the believers quality of life.

Love thy neighbors and do unto others, it's what it all boils down to. Somebodies got to be first, so why not me?

LArry

Charon

Thank you! This is something I will ponder and cogitate on. I do not believe in "god" but I have become so desperate that I am trying to pray even though I don't believe. The idea that something "more" doesn't have to be controling never occured to me. Maybe my "higher power" could be doing the right thing. I do believe in that - I just haven't been very good at it lately.

Spica

Hi Charon and Zach. The "higher power" thing has been an issue for me, too. For the last two weeks I have started to embark on working step 2 in NA and this is turning out to be a journey that is truly helping me grow... I already warned my sponsor that I am not a Christian and do not subscribe to any of the "world religions" (although the "middle path" described in Buddhism is appealing). I have a great respect for religion but tend towards a more Humanist / Rationalist / Naturalism view myself. Right now as I try to work through defining something higher than myself I am honestly using the group as my "higher power"...

There are many folks in my homegroup who have horror stories much like mine who have gone on stay clean, rebuild their lives and find some semblance of serenity and stability so I am just doing my best to follow their example.

I have also been able to meet a few atheists in the group. These folks all have been able to find a spiritual outlook that is quite impressive. I have also been scouring the internet looking deeper into the Secular Humanist and Naturalism sites to learn more.

My personal view is pretty basic. Everything around us began somewhere else - in the maelstrom of exploding stars and scattering dust - from there we grow, strive to survive and then get recycled. It isn't as bleak as it sounds - technically, we are the stuff of stars and our universe recycles on a grand scale. There is sooo much we simply do not know...even neuroscience is still finding more questions than answers (sometimes I am not sure we want to know all the answers).



Although the 12 step program was historically based on "Christian" tenets leading its adherents to know God, for me, I feel that the higher power concept is evolving and is more designed to help me get out of myself - it is a way to take in a bigger picture where I learn to recognize my own selfish desires and obsessions and learn to have them take a back seat to being a part of something greater - being of service to my fellow addicts and then others as I continue to grow and evolve...not to direct them how to act but to be an example of how to live a healthy live with a sense of love and wonder...something I lost in my using days.

I have included a couple of the websites I have been reading in case anyone is interested...the first is from the Naturalism site - it is an article titled "Spirituality without Faith." It is a little verbose but quite interesting.

Spirituality without Faith

The second is the site for the Council for Secular Humanism

Council for Secular Humanism

I have found these to be good places to help me on the way to learn more about myself and hopefully continue to grow in a positive, rational way as not just an individual but as part of a greater "process" (for lack of a better word...).

One of the most important things I strive to remember - for myself - is that there is no end game here - this is a journey, a process of continuous growth and learning and finding ways to help others and be a better human, parent, friend, etc...

All the best to everyone as they continue on their journey...

larrylive

Charon;

You have made the same first step that I did and I don't know how many times I refused to listen when people said:

GOD = Good Orderly Direction ie; doing the next right thing.

Many books have been written on the concept. Norman Vincent Peale's "The Power of Positive Thinking", although christian based has a powerful message. If you can find "the Secret" either in book or video it's a good primer. The "middle path" of the Buhddist is helpful, as is Taoism.
I beleive or have experienced that once you practice the positive it will manifest in your life. Love is always returned with Love, that's why they say it is better to give than to receive, because you will get it back anyway.

Larry

jazz66

keep an open mind have you ever looked at religes peope always smiling
never un happey thats not normal in my opinion
a higher power is your owen chouse

god or what ever but you will only fing the higher power from within

Gmoney

I'm a member of NA. Here's some of the things NA says about "spiritual awakening."

"'How will I know when I have had a spiritual awakening?" For many of us, a spiritual awakening comes gradually. Perhaps our first spiritual awareness is as simple as a new appreciation for life. Maybe one day we'll suddenly discover the sound of birds singing early in the morning. The simple beauty of a flower may remind us that there is a Power greater than ourselves at work around us." - JFT, pg. 12

How about -

"Though we all work the same steps, each of us experiences the spiritual awakening resulting from them in our own way. The shape that spiritual awakening takes in our lives will vary, depending on who we are. For some of us, the spiritual awakening promised in the twelfth step will result in a renewed interest in religion or mysticism. Others will awaken to an understanding of the lives of those around them, experiencing empathy perhaps for the first time. Still others will realize that the steps have awakened them to their own moral or ethical principles. Most of us experience our spiritual awakening as a combination of these things, each combination as unique as the individual who's been awakened." - JFT, pg. 97

Hope that helps.
G

jazz66

and thats a fact

dsanders1980

I am 31 and have been an addict since I was 16. I have been to several rehabs. I have just realized that I havent ever worked on my mind or soul. I have put my family through hell. I have been a horrible father. This is my last chance at being apart of my family. I need help. I have always been against organized religion but interested in spirituality. It is just hard for me to truley realize there is a higher power that loves me and will help me become a good person.

FT

dsanders,

Have you ever checked out Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth"? He has a way of discussing spirituality in a way that I can understand, drawing from all of the world's religions in a philosophical discussion of the self without being religious.

The audio version is free on line. The book version is worth reading. He also wrote "The Power of Now", but I like "A New Earth" much better, which I think he wrote first.

You might find something in his words that you can connect with.

FT

hello-kitty

I believe... that the universe strives for balance and that there is balance in nature. That's my higher power. As long as I don't mess with the balance, as long as I make WISE choices today, then everything will work out, exactly the way nature intended it too. Even if I don't always understand why things are happening the way they are, I just keep trying to make wise choices... and trust the balance of nature to do the rest.

Spica

Wow Hello Kitty - I love your avatar!!! Thank you for mentioning balance - that is something I need to keep in mind!

...and one of these days I have to pick up Tolles' "A New Earth."

LostinLaLaland

Thanks failied taper I'm literally about to finish the book I'm reading the moment I get off here but am now excited to go read "A New Earth", sounds interesting and possibly enlightling!

larrylive

All religions lead to....heaven, bliss, nirvana, in their own way, truly a case of "take what you can use..."

But remember nothing is "free", I must work for/towards that which I want. You get what you give.

Larry

Marcus

I don't post on here much, but I just wanted to give a big two thumbs up to the book that Taper recommended. I have struggled big time with the spiritual side of things and A New Earth (and the Power of Now) really put things into context for me. It doesn't matter if you are a program person or not I think it can be helpful. For me staying in the present moment - trying my best to reign in my ego - and observing my thoughts - realizing I am NOT my thoughts necessarily - that many of my thoughts are based on things that happened in my upbringing that I didn't necessarily choose has been vital in my recovery. It is a quick read too (there are some exercises in there, but I knocked it out in about 5 hours). So if you don't like it you wasted 5 hours of your life - not that bad right?

Another book I liked which seems a lot like common sense, but helped me to start to grasp what spirituality is/might be is called The Four Agreements (by Don Miguel Ruiz). That one you can read in under 2 hours so give it a shot if you are lost it might help.

sooners

When I took a CPE (Clinical Pastoral Education) class two summers ago, the most interesting thing I found was that in today's world of science and medication, we don't really treat the soul and that is a big mistake. Ignoring our spirituality or thinking it has nothing to do with our health is a big mistake in my opinion. It all goes together, Body, Mind & Soul and we need to be treating all of them, if we ignore one of them (say the soul), that could be just as harmful as not taking your medication when you are suppose to, regardless if you claim to be a Christian, Jewish, Muslim etc. I think hard core 'fire and brimstone' preaching and church has scared a lot of people off from the idea of a higher power, humanity has always found a way to hurt one another and in our attempts to run a church, we are no different. I don't know how pleased God would be with how some of the organized religions operate what they are calling "a house of God." Anyway.... my 0.02 cents LOL

sooners

"Let me explain the problem science has with religion."

An atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

The Bible says I am evil.

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!'

He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'


The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'


Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

' yes'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.'


'Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'


Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.


'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'


'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'


'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.'


'In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'


The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'


'Yes, professor My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'


The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'


'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.'


'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'


'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'


'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'


'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'


The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.


'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'


The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.


'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'


The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.


'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'

'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'


Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.


Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'


'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'


Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'


To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God.. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'


The professor sat down.

FT

Hey sooners,

As a literature buff who likes to verify the authenticity of often-quoted famous people, I tried to check out this quote as an actual Einstein quote.

All I could find was a number of internet sources that claimed this quote was never uttered by Einstein.

I do see the point you are trying to make, and I do respect your point of view.

However, can you lead me in the right direction to verify if Einstein really said this stuff?

FT

Spica

That was a cute story but FT is right that was not Einstein...

And there is no question that a brain exists - we can get ours scanned at any time to prove its existence (of course you need insurance or beaucoup money to have that happen...)



One of my favorite conversations along those lines was in the movie "Contact." Ellie Arroway, an astronomer and atheist was having a discussion with her romantic interest, Palmer Joss, a seminary student and strong adherent to the concept of God...The conversation regarding potential proof of God went like this (and yes, I am paraphrasing for brevity)...

Ellie: "You are saying that science killed God. What if science simply proved he did not exist in the first place?"

Palmer: " I cannot imagine living in a world where God didn't exist."

Ellie: "How do you know you are not deluding yourself? I’d need proof.”

Palmer: “Proof? Ellie, did you love your father?

Ellie: “Yes, very much”

Palmer: “Prove it.”

Ellie: ...contemplative silence...

This was a great conversation. I loved this movie (and the book behind it) for two reasons. 1) Since it was written by Carl Sagan the science and astronomy was pretty much spot on (until we get to the alien bit and then all bets are off…) and 2) the main theme was the ongoing debate between science and the concept of God and what different people consider a truly transcendent experience.

Many theists believe that the fact that we deeply feel things like faith and spiritual transcendence incontrovertibly offers proof of God… the interesting thing is that it has been proven that stimulating parts of the temporal lobes in the human brain brings about this sense of transcendence and being one with the universe. When Tibetan monks went into deep meditation and experienced a transcendent state their brains were scanned and the scans were able to detect the changes that take place in the brain during this state.

Basically we are wired for spirituality – which of course opens up the question are we wired for spirituality because a deity deigned that it should be so or have we created the idea of a deity because we are wired for a spiritual experience.



In case anyone is interested in this, I recommend a couple of good books that I truly enjoyed:

“Why God won’t go Away, Brain Science and the Biology of Belief” by Andrew Newberg, MD and Eugene D’Aquill, MD

“Mapping the Mind,” by Rita Carter