chicory

Well, I finally went to an online al-anon meeting last night. so many people I did not get to share, but heard some good stuff. I noted that there would be an acoa meeting tonight, so I went. Lot of people there, no one greeted me, and it was a bit stilted, as compared to the chat meetings we have here on sr. but, anyway,
The subject was "Shame"
I listened to several people share, and was moved by some of them. I am an aca, and could really relate to their pain.
when one lady finished i typed thanks for sharing-hug.
we did that in chat meetings here on sr. i have always thought that was very kind, and comforting to me.
next long winded share, good stuff, tho. I typed, thank you so and so, great share.
The last share was very moving. It was her first meeting. She shared something very short, and deeply moving, and expressed her gratefulness at finding others who were aca's. I wrote, ty for sharing ,hug.

Ok, i guess i am a dummy. i get a personal message from the stand in moderator, reminding me of the rule of "no crosstalk". I just wrote "What?"
and he said, that we are only allowed to thank the sharer and add no other talk. no hugs, since others might be very uncomfortable with that.
Well, I apologized, telling him I meant no disrespect, and then i just signed out. I was ashamed! this meeting was about shame, and they shamed me!

I guess I am too stupid for acoa meetings even. can i blame it on my childhood? lol
not going back there.
i truly did not know this would be wrong. blame it on my boundary deficit. i feel such shame tonight- yuk!!!


P.S. some of them added other words besides thank you so and so. guess they knew each other. ignorance on my part. now they will never know that i am not some jerky predator.

chicory

I am much too sensitive sometimes. I wish I would grow up! Glad I can blame it on being acoa.

MMkM

Here I was trying to find online meetings of ACoA and looking at the options.

As overwrought I was feeling last week and considering a lot of us as we go into any meeting/reading/posting are going to uncover unpleasant feelings -
I think this could have been handled a bit better by the moderator.

I went to an Alanon meeting (in person) years ago and spoke out a comment and then someone replied - the group leader just politely said to the person who replied 'no crosstalk'.

I was not aware of the rules which I think should be stated at the beginning of the meetings.

You were giving 'hugs' - nothing to be ashamed of at all, they should have stated the rules for newcomers to the online meeting.

Thanks for sharing as others consider joining online meetings.

hope2be

Can relate to this, Chickory.

One thing I am learning is that one of my ACOA issues is that I am guilty before being charged with anything. Let's not talk about if someone said I did something wrong!

I am learning that part of being human is making mistakes. I think I feel so bad when I make a mistake because way back when, I somehow incorporated that I was a part of my family's dysfunction and if I was really good, everything would be ok.

Also, I was taught that in public you have to keep up certain appearances. However, growing up in dysfunction confused me as to what was right/wrong and boundaries were non-existent.

Thanks for sharing this. It opened up some good dialogue in my mind.

Huggs (if that's ok)

dbh

Hi Chicory,

Sorry that you had that experience.

The board that I used to participate in had a strong no crosstalk policy and I would spend a considerable amount of time worrying that I was doing something wrong.

Intellectually I understand the policy. They want to create an environment were I can feel safe to share without getting feedback from others. They are also put in place so that I'm not tempted to people please and save other.

I participated in that group for three years and I never truly got the hang of it. I agree that hearing something in person (a gentle "no crosstalk") is different from getting an impersonal message.

I don't think a "hug" is interpreted as a potential predator. I think it's discouraged so that the person who is sharing doesn't fall into victim mode and so that the person offering the hugs is able to turn their focus away from other ACAs and back to themselves.

Hope it doesn't discourage you from attending other meetings.

Warm Regards,

db

SusieC

Ugh, I'm so sorry for this! Now I'm not so sure I even want to go to a meeting anymore...
Shame is a huge problem for me too, I can only imagine how upset would I've been!

Soberpotamus

Is ACOA connected with AA and all the 12 Step stuff? If so, I'm even more turned off. I'm an adult child of an alcoholic and was considering looking into this... I love this forum and it's diversity, and I'm a recent newcomer (although I've been on the road to recovery for a while now).

I'm continually amazed at the contradictory nature of AA related messages and experiences I've read about and experienced myself.

DesertEyes

Hello Chicory

That moderator could have handled that better. ( Take it from a guy who _is_ a Moderator )

And no, it's _not_ wrong. Just that every board and every forum has it's own rules.

One thing you can try is to make up some other "web-name" and use it for exploring and "lurking". That way you can use a different name once you find a place that you do like. By the way, "lurking" is perfectly acceptable, especially with sensitive issues like ACoA stuff.

You think? To me you sound like a regular ACoA, and around here you are totally welcome and will never be shamed. ( and if anybody tries just report the post and the Moderator team will handle that )

Yes, you can blame it on being an ACoA, the rest of us do And yes, you will recover and be perfectly comfortable with yourself, and you can even decide that you _want_ to be sensitive and never be ashamed of that.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Jennie,

You are totally right. Unfortunately there are way too many meetings and websites to be able to have some kind of uniform rules. We have 80 some thousand members just on this forum, there's no way to make rules that will make everybody happy. That's why you have to "shop around" and find the ones that fit _your_ needs.

I hope you like SR and decide to stick around.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike

chicory

Thanks for all the comments and thoughts on this. I surely was embarrassed more than anything last night. I was only emulating the way we conduct ourselves here on SR in our chat meetings. But perhaps the rules have good foundation. I just thought crosstalk was talking before someone was finished.

I would not want to discourage anyone from trying the meetings online. there were several people who were near tears of gratitude for their group. They talked about the difference it had made in their lives. I dont think that anyone else in that chat acoa meeting knew what was said to me (unless one of them had complained to the stand-in chairman.), so I might just go back, for one , to see what can be gotten from it, since i really need recovery, and two, to let them know that I am bigger than my shame-heehee. I think that you should try it, if you want to , and make your own decisions.

just dont say "Hug". heehee

it seems so strange , to listen to someone talk, and to keep from having thoughts about it. if we are not supposed to respond with some feelings, why the heck would we want to share anyway? if someone is keeping their mental distance from me, I dont want to talk to them anyway.

think i will sneak back in tonight
sending hugs to all. we can do that here at sr. and if someone does not like it, they can take what they want , and leave the rest. it's ok

hugs, chicory

chicory

[QUOTE=DesertEyes;3024588]
that is a great idea! I may just stroll on in there with my little online user name that I had last night, and see if I can stir things up! just kidding

I truly feel that my HP , to me God, led me here. You cannot know how much it has done for me. How many times I have been so sad and lost and desperate, and the many loving arms around me here (yours too Mike) made me feel so loved and uplifted. During the hardest time of my life, you have been here for me. It is very very special to me-SR.

I was wondering last night, and was going to share it, but glad now that I waited.Is shame something that can be overcome? It almost seems to be like a part of me, like it is one of my deepest characteristics. for instance, when i am at work, and I have worked there with these same people for 12 years, I feel an insecure feeling, I think it is shame, when I speak out at lunch time, or in meetings. it is hard for me to feel as if what I have to say matters. that there is really much reason for me to talk, tho i do it any way, and they have no idea I feel like that.

I feel like i am sort of lesser than, almost invisible ( I was the invisible child), tho I know these people care for me a lot. that is irrational, but i do not know if I will ever be rid of it, i dont think so. if i can function anyway, that is enough i guess. at least it isn't debilitating. but i wish i did not feel that way about myself. i would not want anyone else to feel that way about their own self.

ok, that was what i wanted to share last night, but glad I did not. what if i had and then got that message! I would have given the guy a piece of my mind, i think!

hugs
chicory
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

DesertEyes

* lol * I'm glad you're going back, and with plenty of "spunk".

Yup, surely can. And the reason is this. Us people are all born the same; Naked and ignorant. _Everything_ else we learn along the way. Babies have _no_ shame, none. Therefore shame is something that is _taught_ to us over time. Since it is a _learned_ feeling we can choose to learn a _new_ feeling and _unlearn_ the shame.
That's what recovery is all about, learning how to live a healthy, positive life and getting rid of the unhealthy "stuff" that was "brain-washed" into us by an dysfunctional family.

That feeling of "lesser than" is very common among ACoA's. I had it in bucket fulls when I started recovery. I learned it from my biological parents because that is the way they treated me as a child.

I have taught myself that I am _not_ lesser than, I am _equal_. I am equal to everybody else and have some traits that make me valuable in some situations. To my good friends I am special, as they are to me. Recovery taught me that, and now I _like_ me

well there you have it. You are not 100% shame, you have plenty of "not shame", enough to stand up for yourself in some situations.

Mike

dbh

Hey, maybe your other username should be "NoShame" ;-)

Cheers,

db

chicory

dbh,
that is funny
I did go back last night, and still did not share, but listened. Many people were not even commenting, as in "thanks for sharing, etc." guess there is an air of reservation . I stayed as long as I could , but found it not my cup of tea.
I guess I have been really spoiled by the great people here! really and truly....

love and hugs too
chicory

chicory

Deserteyes,

I want to get more of that "not shame"!
I really guess I have a long way to go.
My present situation is making me feel shame,
for I feel like I have a shameful secret. My son living with me, and my life being unmanageable because of it.

I know that I am equal to everyone else, and feel that all are equals. but someday I would love to speak out without that little voice inside, talking crap, while I am trying to talk!


love and hugs to my acoa's,
chicory

Impurrfect

(((Chicory))) - I'm sure there are probably other online meetings. How I got to SR, was by lurking for a long time (over a year), so even though I thought I knew how to post here, I quickly learned that "you should" is not the right thing to say here. No one said anything to me, I just read it in various places and went "ah HA!" Took me a while to get used to what we do here is share our ES&H.

So, maybe just check out a few other online meetings and see if some "feel" better.

I've checked out other recovery sites, but since I'm addicted to SR, I just stay here.

BTW, yes, shame is something you can get over. Like ((Mike)) said, it's a matter of learning to replace those old voices of "I'm not good enough" with more positive voices. It takes time, as obviously I'm still working on it, in some areas, but I know longer feel like a dog with my tail tucked, when someone gets snappy at work.

I'm not an ACOA, but I had an ex that did a really good job of making me feel "less than" for several years, and I'm still working on changing that voice.

I think you are doing GREAT by checking out meetings, posting here, etc.

Hugs and prayers,

Amy

BeingStill

I had a similar experience in a f2f, so I couldn't just sign out! :-) In the official ACA red book, it states that there is no hugging at meetings. And yes, it defines crosstalk differently than what we may be familiar with in other groups. The handbook says no hugging... no commenting on another person's share... no comforting or tissue if someone is crying. That an ACA must learn to comfort themselves. Stuff like that. Basically, sharing in an ACA meeting is supposed to be isolated. Just listen. Say thanx. That kind of thing.

I was "reprimanded" for building on another person's share. I basically said something like, "I like what you said about blah blah blah because it makes me think about..." I was told that we can't directly acknowledge another person's share because they need to be able to express themselves without any judgement or encouragement.

I didn't go back. I won't go back. I'll explore my ACA issues in Al Anon and leave it at that.

chicory

Wow, what is the purpose of that I wonder?
no hugs, no comment. makes me feel like I am sharing with the wall.
makes me feel the old "all alone" feeling again.
almost inhuman.

yep- if they stuck to those rules at any meeting i found, i would not be back, either.
i like al-anon, and I love it here
gonna bite the bullet and drive the miles i have to , to get to the only f2f one around me.

tromboneliness

Where does the red book say "no hugging at meetings?" I haven't seen anything like that, and I've pretty much read the book cover-to-cover (my regular meeting does that).

Being "reprimanded for building on another person's share," again, that has nothing to do with ACA -- it means whoever's running that group is doing it wrong!

I go to two ACA meetings a week -- both of them are pretty much like any other meeting (remember, ACA began as an Al-Anon group). If ACA has its own specific definition of crosstalk, I haven't seen that, either. One meeting I go to defines crosstalk as "talking directly to or about someone else in the meeting." That's crosstalk -- and you're not supposed to do that. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen -- if I want to follow up on someone's share, I'll just say, "At the risk of crosstalk, it was good to hear you talk about such-and-such, because I have the same problem!" Stuff like that.

ACA is a useful complement to Al-Anon -- where Al-Anon is mostly concerned with the present, helping us figure out ways to deal with what's going on now, ACA is more about the past -- how we got here and what we need to do to fix it.

I don't know where that stuff came from -- but it has nothing to do with ACA as a whole. There's no shortage of hugging and/or following up on someone else's share, at least at the meetings I've been to.

Whoever runs that meeting needs to lighten up.

T

BeingStill

T~

Wish the ACA meetings here were like yours!

Page 564:

"In ACA, we do not touch, hug, or attempt to comfort others when they become emotional during an ACA meeting."

"To hug or touch the person is known as 'fixing.'"

"Cross talk means interrupting, referring to, or commenting on what another person has said during the meeting."


I get that cross talk is interrupting. That's obvious. But many times in my other groups someone will say something that then sets off a chain reaction of shares. Many times what someone else shares gives clarity to something I've been struggling with... so I refer to that share as such. To define cross talk as "referring to" and "commenting on" another's share just seems bizarre to me. And the groups I've been to adamantly enforce that from the red book.

I only have two ACA meetings remotely near me, and both were the same.

No hugs. Very isolated shares that left me feeling very disconnected from the group. Someone could be sobbing about something, and when she was done, the next person just shared about whatever without even acknowledging the sobbing person. Because we can't "fix" her, so she's just supposed to freely sob and learn to comfort herself.

In my other groups (Al Anon, FA) if someone's share was very emotional, others may share something that shows the person they're not alone. Someone might share a similar experience or struggle. Someone might share a story of hope.

But in the ACA meetings, I was flat out told that we don't refer or build on another's share. Period. That as an ACA personality, it's my codependent drive that makes me want to "fix" the struggling person, and that as ACAs we must learn to not only express our feelings, but also refrain from trying to comfort someone else who's emotional.

I don't know. In THEORY, I SORT OF get it. But it's not me. I get that I am codependent, but that only means I need to monitor my "helping," not eliminate it. I need to learn what's appropriate and what's not. But sitting in those rooms with people who shared these completely isolated stories, and the only response was "Thank you," was just too weird and uncomfortable for me.

It really bothers me that the groups near me are like that because so much ELSE in the red book is wonderful material. It's like I agree with the content of the handbook, but I totally disagree with the meeting format in the handbook.

I can share ACA type stuff in an Al Anon meeting and get great feedback. But not in the actual ACA meeting.

It was just a very strange, very uncomfortable experience, and I have no desire to ever go back. It's not for me. I NEED warmth and comfort because I didn't get that as a kid. The people at the meeting said the hugging and commenting is left out because that's what we tried to do with our parents. Seek comfort. Try to fix them. Stuff like that. So at the meeting we are to REFRAIN from comfort seeking and giving... in order to learn to do that for ourselves.

I don't know. I GET the point. Sort of. But that type of thinking is not what I personally need to heal. That type of thinking is what I need to avoid because one of my issues in life has been to put up walls and do everything for myself. To not trust. To not allow others to comfort me.

So a program that says "Comfort yourself and don't reach out to others" is the exact opposite of what I need.

Sigh.

DesertEyes

There's a _reason_ why the ACA book is so hard line about the "comforting" issue. Having benn involved in starting ACA in California back when Claudia Black wrote her famous magazine article I have seen those reasons first hand. I was also invited to give my .02 worth when the "Red Book" was being written, and I know all the issues that were brought up.

It goes like this.

Addictions cause deep harm to all the people it touches, but the _type_ of harm is different depending on the victim. Likewise the _recovery_ from that harm is going to be different.

An adult who falls in love with a person, and that person later in life becomes addicted to pain pills, is going to have what is called "high level" damage. That means that the adult _already_ had a high level of social and life skills, and the damage done to that adult can be repaired with a good therapist or a recovery program.

In the middle are adults who fall in love with a person who is _already_ addicted to some chemical. This adult has poor skills in the area of identifying toxic people, so repairing the damage is going to take a lot of leaning new skills and discarding old ones. That's going to take a lot more attention.

At the opposite end is a child who raised by alkies / addicts and _never_ had any skills at all. ( me, raising hand ) This person has _no_ idea of what is "appropriate" behavior in a social setting, never mind how to protect themselves from predators.

In the early ACA meetings we would get a lot of adults like that. We used to call them "heavy's" because their stories were so "heavy" with abuse and neglect. They truly were lost in the world of adults and social situations. Offer them a hug and some of them would literaly go into fugue episodes due to all the rapes they had experienced. Offer them a cup of coffee and they would literaly move in with you and expect to be your live-in partner forever.

And they were easy picking for the predators.

So what is the solution? How do you have a social program for people who are so "socially disabled" that they can't exist in social situations?

You don't.

Hard line ACA is for people who are so deeply injured that they are not yet able to protect themselves. People for whom any kind of physical contact brings a huge flood of horrific memories. As they heal from those emotional injuries they eventually move on to al-anon, where they can give and receive hugs and other affection without getting overwhelmed.

The anonymity of computer forums is a new thing that wasn't around back in the '70's when ACA got started. Here we can have a mix of people at all levels of "social skill" and all abilities to handle affection. It's a much safer place because you can just ignore people at will and protect yourself even more by not participating in PM's. Here in "cyber-land" we can have a social program for people who are "socially disabled", a place where they can learn how to become social at their own pace.

So if the ACA meetings are too "anti-comfort" then I suggest that you are further along in your recovery than what that particular meeting is addressing. Try al-anon meets that focus on ACA issues, they will probably be a better fit for you.

And, of course, you are always welcome here

Mike
Moderator, SR