fs101

So, the question I have is this. Once someone make a choice to stop using drugs or alcohol, when can they stop being in recovery?

There seems to be an idea you can never be recover(ed), and will always be an addict. I think its BS. I have been reading alot about the recovery industry, and places that make money off of addicts and such, and it seems that when people recover, they lose business. AA/NA 12-step in general seems to push this to the extreme, like go to meetings or something or the whole in jail or dead...

When does it stop? I started here thinking that it was something that always would be a part of me, and now I don't want to come here and keep talking about being "powerless".

Drugs are bad... end of story.

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there, and my apologies to Juiceman, who seems to have been right all along, willpower, quitting, do it and move on.

Time to get back to life, any one coming?

Dee74

I'm back into life - but I keep my recovery 'engine' well maintained too, on a daily basis - it's not a chore at all- it's something I want to do.

There's been many hard times in the last 4 years when I might have crashed and burned and gone back to old ways - but I was ready for the hard times, I knew what to do, and I didn't underestimate the task.

Personally I think 'recovery vs life' is a false dichotomy.

IMO, recovery is about a lot more than not doing drugs - when you do it right, recovery is living life - to the full

D

Lizrox

I have almost a year clean.

I consider myself a recovering addict with my disease in remission.

There is a post I started on this subject a while ago. I'll see if I can find it and bump it.

endlesspatience

I don't think it's true that AA is a part of any recovery "industry" or has any financial motive for wanting people to attend its meetings. I am going every day at the moment and drop a one pound coin in the jar each time. About once a week, the Treasurer tells the group that they haven't quite contributed enough to cover the expenses of the meeting and the pot goes around again. So, here in the UK, one week of meetings costs eight pounds. A cheap bottle of wine in a pizza restaurant costs £12. But I don' want to drink it any more!

MelissaNoDrugs

Last time I thought that I relapsed.

totfit

I kind of think that some may be so far into "recovery" that they are still out of touch with living also. I think recovery is just a term. I do think that one needs to always seek to get/be better. If I/we do not have goals and are not taking steps towards them it is so very easy to go the other way. Really, I think it is just different strokes for different folks. I find my "recovery" in all kinds of meetings, groups, associations, and most of all nature. None of them have to do with "alcohol-ism", but all have to do with being mentally and physically healthy. For me there is a sort of spiritual also, but it has nothing to do with the God of most peoples understanding, nor a God at all to me.

Lizrox

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ecovering.html

doggonecarl

I was an addict for ten years. Quit drugs in 1986. Thought I had it licked. Proudly wore my status of "ex-addict" and shared my story of my victory over drugs. Twenty years later, my mom is dying of cancer, I'm home taking care of her, snorting oxy I've taken from her medicine cabinet. Ex addict? That was BS.

I think being vigilent in your recovery is a small price to pay to remain clean.

It's clear you have another plan. Good luck.

SteppingItUp

Hi FS,

I wonder what has happened that has inspired this post?

I'll tell you a little bit about where I'm coming from. I got clean at home, and I spent a good while getting upset about people suggesting that I needed much more help than I realized. I thought that if I could get the drugs out of my system, after a little while I would be able to stand up, dust myself off and move on with my life as planned. As I watched the dust settle around me, I began to realize just how much I had lost within myself. It wasn't just about the drugs after all. I didn't know how to live anymore. Shame, fear, pride, arrogance and cynicism meant that it wasn't easy to accept that I was in much more trouble than I thought. I needed help. I looked around, asked a lot of questions and got help through AA and NA (I'm an alcoholic and an addict). I wound up finding one of the greatest gifts I have ever come to know.

I've been clean/sober for 2 years, I've been through the steps many times, I sponsor other alcoholics/addicts, and I have been freed of the obsession to use/drink. Knowing where I've been, I think that's nothing short of miraculous.

Despite those that will only refer to themselves as recovering, the Big Book of AA uses the word recover-ed. It is found throughout the first 164 pages, with one exception I can think of for recover-ing, while referring to a newer member. It's not really a surprise discovery; it's even in the original title of the Big Book: Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered From Alcoholism.

I believe I have recover-ed from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body -- that is, I have recover-ed from alcoholism. Recovered does not mean cured -- we can be recovered, but we are never cured. The best description I've seen on this is that we can be recovered from a bullet wound, but that doesn't make us bulletproof. If I don't keep spiritually fit, I can lose that "ed" and find myself back struggling with the mental obsession. Why do people relapse? The mental obsession to use. I think that's the key. Just the same, whether or not I like it, I believe there's no going back in certain senses -- I will be an addict/alcoholic for the rest of my life, drunk or sober/using or clean.

Contemporary NA literature refers to recover-ing-- original NA literature still used recover-ed. The mental obsession to use has been removed. I don't use, and I don't struggle with not using -- I don't want it. I believe I am a recover-ed addict as much as I am a recover-ed alcoholic. Perhaps ultimately the semantics are not what matter most: I get to be happy, joyous and free today. It's a miracle any way I see it.

So how long do I have to keep working the steps? Well, if I want to be in recovery for the rest of my life, then I will need to work on the maintenance of my spiritual condition everyday for the rest of my life. Yep. How do I know this? The experience of others -- listening to it and seeing it myself. There's also this -- when I'm doing the work, the results are eventually (or immediately) awesome; when I'm not, they're often pretty painful and potentially lethal.

By the way, as there are no dues or fees in the fellowships, and I've never been to treatment, I think I've gotten away with the deal of a lifetime.
It's not a moral issue -- it's a disease.

My will power was not enough to stop myself when I used, and it wasn't enough for me to stop and stay stopped for any significant amount of time, like a year, based purely on my own resources (like no meetings, no steps, no doctors, no substitute drugs/meds, no therapy, etc.). I also lost control of my using/drinking, and I would become powerless to stop. I know I'm not staying clean/sober on my own will power.

I do go to a lot of meetings, and there's a lot of strength in fellowship, but ultimately I believe we recover by the steps we take, not simply by the meetings we make. I've never met someone who has said they ever regretted working the steps. On the other hand, I have seen many who haven't made it, or stay clean/sober and hurting because they don't.

No one is going to make you do anything. If you're anything like me, I bet they'd have a helluva time trying.

I wish you the absolute best on your journey.

SIU

billsaintjames

I don't think it's ever possible to be completely recovered from a serious addiction. If that was possible, then we could go back to those habits with a clean slate and give it another go. We all know it would be insane to go back to our DOC, believing we could control it *this time*.

FT

I think the best people to ask that question of are the folks who have a LOT of years behind them. The most common people to hear declarations of "I am recovered!" are people with relatively short time in recovery. Many long-timers can recall years back when they slipped even after years of recovery, before their most recent and more lasting one.

It is easy to feel "recovered" when suddenly you feel good, feel normal, and have no cravings. Until you do. What I mean by that is that something happens, an illness, a loss, or whatever, that challenges your "recovery." Then you find out what "in recovery" still means.

I, too, dislike the constant reminders to myself of "deprivation." To me, that simply means my recovery currently takes more work than it will later on. I have my alcohol "recovery" to reflect on -- more than 20 years now -- and I never think of alcohol anymore. Until I was in withdrawal from oxycodone, that is. It wasn't really a "craving" to drink, as much as my desperate seeking of ANY way to feel better. To those who remember my "mouthwash story", there you have it.

I look forward to the day where I view oxys the way I do alcohol. I don't care how much alcohol surrounds me now (with the except of the brief moment of "mouthwash abuse x 1 gulp") -- not only do I not crave drinking it, I think it will make me feel sick. All it would take, however, is a little "break-in period," however, and I think I would like it again just fine. Ha!

Just my personal perspective.

FT

billsaintjames

FT, I'm like you on the alcohol deal. I haven't had a single craving for it since I quit over 4 months ago. I have thought about marijuana many times every day though. Funny how we are all attacked by cravings for our various substances differently.

fs101

Thanks for the time to respond. However, so many of your responses seem to just say the same thing. I don't think I agree with the disease idea, I can understand that some people are more genetically hardwired to be addicted, yes. Just like some people are sheep in life and follow others no matter what, and some have type "A' personalities.

However, even if you are wired that way, I still think the choice is yours. I think once you make that choice, it's still yours.

I was asked what prompted this question. Well I was thinking (again) about what I had been through. It suddenly struck me that I don't want to use again, and that I don't think I will. If I do use again, it would be because I had failed, not because of some disease or wiring.

I find the "always in recovery" "always an addict" idea to be a convienent excuse for a relapse. If i believe like that, I always have a nice out for my slip... as in "see I wasn't recover(ed) I was still working on it".

I don't want to bash anyone, and understand that people have to do what is right for them, but I don't want excuses. I am a grown human being, who made my choices. I understand that they were selfish, and bad. Now for myself, and my family I make better choices.

Dee74

Could there be a reason for that?

I'm in recovery - and continue to be by my own volition - so that I can continue to change myself and my life, and hopefully continually improve both

I can't see how that's a negative.

btw, I'm not in a 12 step programme and I don't really care whether addiction is a disease or not

D

JustAYak

I also believe that using is a choice, but I don't think we have total control over addictive behaviors while you are in active addiction. We wouldn't be an addict if we did have control. Addiction is a compulsion, a need for something and it's hard-wired into your brain, I do believe that. But using drugs in the first place or relapsing? A choice, a definite choice. Once you stop, it is your choice to start again. I don't believe that it's a disease because you are consciously choosing this option to use, your legs don't just start magically walking and take you towards a drug dealer, you choose to go there. That said, I do not believe that it can be cured, but I believe you can be "recovered." People can recover from sickness, but still have it flare up later in their lives--they were not cured, just at their optimum functioning again. I believe we are recovered when we no longer consider using as something we want to do. A need may always be there, however. It will always be an option for us, therefore I think we are always an addict, recovered or not.

I don't work the steps and see no need for me, personally, to do so. I don't know if my thoughts make any sense to you, but they make sense to me, and in the end that's all that really matters! Go with whatever definition you like, as long as you are being honest with yourself. Good luck!

FT

Hi fs:

I think I know where you are coming from in rejecting addiction as a disease and putting it more in the realm of free will. My husband and I had a discussion about this today, after you posted.

The problem with free will is that when someone makes some bad choices of their own free will, they may not realize that they have stepped into the ring of fire that is the capability of substances to alter our brain wiring. A dysfunctional brain, as is what occurs with addiction, has an impaired ability to reason correctly, and choices are no longer made by reason but by altered brain chemicals secondary to the substance.

Addicts who would, under other circumstances, make the better choice not to use, are using impaired logic. It is kind of like trying to argue string theory with a cat.

I don't mean to put down addicts or cats, but, simply put, an addicted brain is no longer a logical brain. Does that ever heal entirely after "recovery"? I really don't know.

FT

BackToSquareOne

I've found that quitting drinking or using drugs was the easy part, learning to live a sane, sober, happy life where you're actually at peace with yourself is the hard part. Comming to a forum like this gives you a sense that your not alone in the struggle.

It's totally amazing to me that complete strangers are willing to take time out of their day to share their thoughts. The kindness of strangers shown on this forum is truely a rare gift.

fs101

((JAY)), you make good points about the choices, and if someone feels that they are always "an addict" that is certainly up to them. It just seems to me to be larger than substances, people who make poor choices are everywhere, and have different reasons for making them. I don't feel like an addict, and I agree that when your on the drugs/alcohol things are imparied and choices are taken from you, it's after that that i disagree with idea.

((DEE)) you are always a voice of moderation on here, and the people who have been helped by your words may be higher than I can count. I feel like this is an important discussion, but my respect for you is pretty big. I do have issues with 12-steps as a be all end all, from many points of view. I also know that many people here don't use the 12-step model (as you said).

((FT)) You have alot of experience and knowledge in the subject of the bodies/brains reactions and changes on the drugs, many of the things you talk about are good, but they are not part of my issue. If a scientist tells me that my brain has been changed by drugs and this is how it's done and here are the studies, all well and good. When it comes from psuedo-religious/spiritual claptrap from a book in the 50's, I call BS.

I don't feel powerless, I really haven't. I felt that my using opiates was becoming a bad idea, and even against what my Dr said, I quit. My choice. I came here to talk to others and to think about what the choices I made did and why i did them.

I don't want people to feel attacked here, I think that many on this board are here to help themselves and others who have issues, and that is great. It just felt like... at what point do you say, Thanks for the help, it's time to move on. We do it all the time in our lives, we go through stages and come out on the other side, growing up, marriage, having kids, school, work take your pick. To me this is no different, I went through my trial by fire, I lived fast and hard and then paid for it. I choose to put it behind me, I dojn't spend my time thinking about the dumb stuff I did in High School, I can remember it and I learned from it but that is where it stops.

To everyone that posted, thanks for your insight. I hope that in some way it either confirmed something for you or someone here posted something that will help you, since that is why we are all really here, to help or be helped.

((BTS1)) You are not alone in the stuggle of life, that is for sure. Kindness is a gift in many places and many people here give that gift freely. I have found though that the peace of my life has come from my children, and myself. I have found some great people to talk to here, and hope that maybe somebody found some help from me.

So what is the goal then... if it is not to be removed and helped to no longer have addictions or struggle, then what is it. The purpose of recovery (IMO) is to recover, not just to keep recovering over and over.

FT

"When it comes from pseudo-religious/spiritual claptrap from a book in the 50's, I call BS."

So, you think I get all my information from Max Ehrmann? Or just what book are you talking about? It's just a poem, fs. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

You aren't listening. When I said that addiction alters the brain chemicals and affects reason, the "addict brain" is a chemically altered version of ourselves that uses visceral impulse instead of logical reasoning to make decisions, such as to keep using. Whether you want to admit it or not, you were in that state while in active use. Those of us who manage to break out of that vicious cycle have had to make an often painful break from the dual reasoning going on in our heads, and make the rational part of our brains stronger than the chemically altered part.

My point is that the PROPENSITY for a substance to addict us is likely much stronger than in people who do not become addicted. That is something innate and not learned, and like it or not, you probably have it.

So, quit being angry. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And I read a LITTLE more than the Desiderata.

FT

HappyAlone

I never sought the help of tradition channels in my recovery. I was turned off partly by the religious aspects, but mostly it was because I was stubborn and embarrassed.

The sole-surviving technique did work, but I always think how much easier it would have been, and how better off I could be, had I shared my past and future with others who have similar problems.

Believe me, it never ends. At the very least, your past will follow you whether you like it or not, whether or not you have come to terms and embraced it. You cannot take a single step forward for the rest of your life that is not at least in part directed by every step that came before. You can't understand where you are going without knowing where you have been.

In this way, there really is no "recovered." It's not that you have yet to conquer your demons, it is just that you must respect the memory of those demons every single minute of your life. Keep in mind that everything you experience is the past. Light and sound takes time to reach your eyes and ears. The past is as important as the future. Your addicted self is as important as your recovered self. They are one in the same forever.