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Step 5- another human being

Old 04-06-2011, 08:28 AM
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Question Step 5- another human being

This part of the step, "to another human being" is, I don't know how to say it, I just feel there is more to it than meets the eye.
I consciously made a decision during the process of taking the steps with my then sponsor, there is NO WAY he is going to know EVERYTHING.

I do understand the step,( self delusion) but there is something about the part "with another human being" that rings a bell that says, "stop and think before who you do this with".

This is what happened since coming to AA by listening to a few long term sobers.

1. First month in AA, I was having coffee and just probing about AA, steps etc.
He gave good directions, but he warned me about Step 5 from his own expirience. That is, his sponsor slipped, got drunk and blab about his sponsees.
OK, this is probably 1 in a million chance it happens, but it happened.

2. My sponsor may not understand because he has not been where I have been.
For example, let's say I was a bank robber and I robbed a bank on such and such street, on such and such date.
Do I tell him I was a thief, ( nature of our wrongs )?
Or do I tell him the whole deal, address, bank, amounts stolen etc etc?

3. The steps sa's "another human being", does that mean specifically my sponsor?

4. Page 61 in 12 & 12 writes, "Here we ought to take much care......,"
Then it writes, "this individual may be entirely outside of AA"

And even goes further to say, "a complete stranger may prove the best bet."


I don't mean to rip this step apart, but I also know that I really don't want to know EVERY bit of gory detail of future sponsees, definatley not.
If they robbed a bank for example and have not been caught, do I rerally want to know this stuff? No I don't, what if then I am forced by the law to reveal what I know or get done for what ever it is, perjury I think it is.

Can someone please enlighten on this topic, not to shoot it down, but some clarity.

Thanks
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by AA BB 1st
We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step.
Entirely means entirely. Directions are given on how to choose this person. Understanding and close-mouthed are mentioned.

Although I have found that a sponsor is uniquely qualified to give feedback and help someone see the truth about their past conduct, I always give guys an out. I tell them if there is something they haven't been able to share, something they just can't tell me, then find a priest or some other individual to share that with. It doesn't have to be me, but it has to be someone.

After I've heard a 5th Step (and I've heard some things I really didn't want to hear), I do a 6th and 7th Step as well to have God remove from me anything I don't need to be useful. I don't need to be carrying around that weight any more than the guy 5th Stepping does.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:35 PM
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I am so new to this that right now I am just reading. I will find it difficult to offload my mental junk to ANYone who is not a licensed/certified therapist or of the clergy so you have that seal of the confessional.
Maybe by the time I get there, things will change. But we shall see.
Were a sponsor become drunk and discuss my issues, I could foresee tremendous emotional damage to the sponsee.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:50 PM
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BB page 74 has clear directions. We find the "person" and get to it.

And it's not "people". We don't give out snippets to different confidants so that no one person knows all. We tell ALL to another human being. Not your sponsor? Ok, then go find another understanding person and get 5th-stepping.

I've done horrible awful things in my addiction and should be dead or at least incarcerated. I found that person with whom I did my 5th and got to it without delay.

Freedom awaits!!
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LatteLady View Post
I am so new to this that right now I am just reading. I will find it difficult to offload my mental junk to ANYone who is not a licensed/certified therapist or of the clergy so you have that seal of the confessional.
Maybe by the time I get there, things will change. But we shall see.
Were a sponsor become drunk and discuss my issues, I could foresee tremendous emotional damage to the sponsee.
Quite right. The book does not say it has to be an AA member. It has to be an understanding close mouthed individual in whom you have confidence. It could be a counsellor, doctor or priest. I took mine with my sponsor and godd some useful feedback, mainly that I was a run of the mill alcoholic, and I lost my lonliness and shame. So that was a plus. But it can be anyone you choose. The important thing is to get it done. You will be amazed at the result.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mfanch View Post
BB page 74 has clear directions. We find the "person" and get to it.

And it's not "people". We don't give out snippets to different confidants so that no one person knows all. We tell ALL to another human being. Not your sponsor? Ok, then go find another understanding person and get 5th-stepping.

I've done horrible awful things in my addiction and should be dead or at least incarcerated. I found that person with whom I did my 5th and got to it without delay.

Freedom awaits!!
Great point Mfanch. My strategy when drinking was to ensure no one new the whole truth, a great way of fooling myself and perpetuating the disease. I had to look at the whole sorry picture with one person or I am sure I would not have survived.

A Note of caution though, that came to light due to a local criminal case. The person taking the 5th step ought to try not to incriminate the listener. AA sponsors have no special privileges under the law in this regard. Even counsellors and doctors are bound to report certain things they hear, possibly priests are the only ones left with this privilege and even that may be in doubt.

So to get it all out without incriminating the listener, I suggest keeping the discussion general, without names places and dates. If it is an unresolved or current criminal matter, it is implicit in the program that the intent is to eventually front up and make amends in anycase.

If the intent is to conceal and hopefully get away with something, then its probably a waste of everyone's time to take this step.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:25 AM
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Great responses. If you feel you can't do it with your sponsor (and actually doesn't ever mention a sponsor in the book), find a priest, pastor, therapist, good friend, whatever...Someone trustworthy to say the least.

Get at it and move on! I put a lot of fear into this and once I was done with it, I didn't feel super free, but I felt good that it was done and I could finally move on.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:52 AM
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I don't think I would have had the same results if I hadn't done my 5th step with my sponsor, but that is my experience.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:07 PM
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The whole point is that someone knows the whole story, not bits and bobs scattered about, as mentioned. I spent my whole life giving little tidbits about myself, and in the end not one person knew the whole me. It was a defense mechanism for me - keep people at arm's length by revealing only portions of myself., and not letting them in to the true me. I feared they wouldn't want to be around me if I did so.

But in the 5th, we let one person know us all, warts and all. This is where we get free at a strong level. And knowing that my sponsor knows all of me, and still loves me and accepts me, well, that's a first for me. And that starts to build more trust in every one else.

The chances of a sponsor getting drunk and revealing all - I don't have a stat for that, but I don't imagine it happens often. I could also fall down a sewer grate. Who knows. But for me someone who has done this, gone down this road,is important. But if a therapist or clergyperson is what does it for someone, then let it be. As long as it's getting done.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by LatteLady View Post
I am so new to this that right now I am just reading. I will find it difficult to offload my mental junk to ANYone who is not a licensed/certified therapist or of the clergy so you have that seal of the confessional.
Maybe by the time I get there, things will change. But we shall see.
Were a sponsor become drunk and discuss my issues, I could foresee tremendous emotional damage to the sponsee.
Don't even worry about this step right now. When you get to it you will probably have a different perspective. Trust is important. My sponsor was the only one I trusted enough to do this step with when I got to it. If you don't trust the sponsor you have when you get to this step then you might consider finding a different sponsor.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:46 PM
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as mfanch poiinte out, an understanding person, one who understands what we are doing. a comatose lithuanian wouldnt be a good choice.
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Old 02-16-2016, 05:12 PM
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This looks like an old thread, but it's quite useful. Thank you.

I did my fifth step with my sponsor, per her direction. I was scared as hell. Did I know her well enough, could I trust her? I thought about a counsellor, a priest, whatever. Someone bound by law to keep it to themselves.

But in the end I went with my sponsor, and I'm glad. She helped me to the next steps, and the finding of my character defects together was much more valuable I think than if I had talked to a counselor and then reported back.

Man that sponsor slipping and blabbing thing never ever would occur to me. Who the hell does that? My sponsor has slipped, and I'm pretty sure she had more to think about than talking about my little step 5. She didn't say anything about me, and I still trust her every bit as much as before.

I did some really dumb ****, but in the grand scheme of things are any of us all that interesting to blab about?

As a sponsor myself now, I've been asked by my sponsee if he can do his fifth with a priest. I said we'd get there when we get there. If he does step 4 and is uncomfortable with me being the one to hear about it all, of course I will respect that. But i do worry, how can I really help him find his character defects and pray for their removal, which was INSTRUMENTAL in my own healing, how do I share the gift if I don't know what bothers him?

Now I'm the one who has to let it unfold, and see how it goes. It's my turn to give this one to God and pray for guidance.

Thanks for letting me "talk this out."
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Old 02-16-2016, 05:27 PM
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If it's any help, I sit with my sponsees and we write the fourth step together. We discuss each item, resentment, for example until we can see what is going on then we move to the next thing. When we see clear patterns, we move on to the next suggested topic.

This is how I went through my fourth with my sponsor. I really needed a lot of help understanding how my defects (wrong attitudes) caused my failure. I eventually saw I was my own worst enemy.

All the defects were there. Selfishness, resentment, dishonesty, harmful conduct, jealousy, envy, pride, sloth, procrastination an on and on. There was no big secret about this except to me. This was stuff I didn't know. My alcoholic life was the only nowmal one. That was Saturday.

Sunday I took my fifth, which you may have noticed, is in a completely different chapter. Parts of my fifth were useful in illustrating my inventory, but a lot of those insane half remembered nightmares were not.

I took mine with my sponsor which worked fine. But with my sponsees it is up to them who they chose, they just need to be careful who they pick. I don't need to hear a fifth to know a sponsee has taken it. Those fifth step promises just shine out of them, if they have held nothing back. It is an amazing thing to see someone change right before your eyes.

For me the inventory was about attiudes and behaviour when I was sober, which tripped me up. The fifth was about the things I did when drunk, the nightmare memories that kept me awake at night. They are separate issues if you like, but each has the ability to overpower me and keep me blocked from the sunlight of the spirit.
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Old 02-16-2016, 08:00 PM
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That's a very helpful perspective, thanks!
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Old 02-16-2016, 10:41 PM
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Some great comments , my experience was that looking back when I took the 3rd Step 100% I turned everything over to HP releasing Bondage of Self , doing it gave me faith and removed fear, so I ''fearlessly '' wrote out everything ,then fearlessly shared with another human being ''exactly '' the nature of my wrongs which looking back helped to further deflate any traces of Ego , the wisdom to know the difference in choosing an AA sponsor was asking someone who practices the principles in all their affairs, people who do that are very unlikely to lift a drink and this type usually is 99% trustworthy and then benefit is more than worth it , but easy does it .

Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
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Old 02-17-2016, 01:14 PM
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When I was in AA years ago a woman did her 5th step with an elderly man she knew who was on his death bed. True. Mine was pretty boring according to my sponsor. I guess if you can't do a face to face you can always send an anonymous letter to a clergyman. Or let it go in a balloon. (Now my imagination is running overtime!) :/
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Old 02-17-2016, 01:59 PM
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i think the real bugger for me-
my sponsor didnt answer ALL my questions about any of the steps.
he made me think!!!!

pretty glad he did that today.

crap, look at that...i just blamed him for me havin to think!
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Old 02-17-2016, 05:13 PM
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We find the "person" and get to it.

And it's not "people". We don't give out snippets to different confidants so that no one person knows all.


what stuck with me from reading about the step in the BB is the caution to "think well before we choose the person or persons with whom...."
i found that very interesting.

i don't know anyone who's talked with more than one person, but it is in the original literature.
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Old 02-18-2016, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
We find the "person" and get to it.

And it's not "people". We don't give out snippets to different confidants so that no one person knows all.


what stuck with me from reading about the step in the BB is the caution to "think well before we choose the person or persons with whom...."
i found that very interesting.

i don't know anyone who's talked with more than one person, but it is in the original literature.
That's a very good point Fini, it is in the literature. I have an opinion on this, and it's just my opinion, but my drinking career was made up of people finding out and me confessing to snippets, just what I thought they knew, never the whole sorry picture.

I didn't want to look at the whole picture, it was part of my denial, but I really believe the only way I could accomplish that was to go through everything with one person. And it seemed to work.

There is nothing in the big book about how to hear a fifth step, and really this is a vital piece of information that is missing. A fifth step heard by the right person brought an end to my shame and lonliness, it was a major step in me rejoining the human race, realising that I was just an ordinary alcoholic who did ordinary alcoholic things. That is what came from the feed back, along with other facts about the human condition that appropriately qualified individuals know.

More than the aspect of confidence, the importance of going through this step with someone who knows what they are doing should be a paramount consideration. Priests, for example, are specifically trained in this. This step is one of the most healing steps there is if taken correctly and responded to appropriately.

Conversely, and I have seen it happen, an unwell AA member with no skills in this area can do an awful lot of damage and even defeat the purpose entirely. For the step taker, it is a huge effort in trust and vulnerability, more that they have ever taken in their lives before. It is a massive act of faith, and to have that trust abused can be a shattering blow. It is so important to pick the right person.
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Old 02-18-2016, 08:41 AM
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yes.
i took that step with a nun who was recommended. i did consider this very carefully, as i wasn't sure just why i had this preference for a complete stranger rather than my sponsor-person. i had to make sure it wasn't about hiding or omitting or fear.
i talked it over in general terms with a long-term sober person.
in the end i chose to go with the nun since i wasn't sure my sponsorperson would be entirely able to be detached enough to keep their own stuff out of it and be"unaffected".

oddly, my sponsor "relapsed" to smoking cigarettes a few days after i did this step (they had not smoked for a couple of years by then) and i wonder to this day if i just picked up on something that wasn't conscious which made the decision in favour of the nun the right one.

she was excellent at directing me to stay with the "nature of my wrongs" and not a historical data collection.
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