EntreNous

I find myself getting angry that I can’t believe in the NA’s 12 Steps. I want to be part of something that will work for me and was hoping NA was it. I wanted to go to a meeting but feel that I don’t belong there because I could not 100% commit to the belief in all of the steps and I’m not sure I want to spend the rest of my life clean.
I was brought up Catholic and went to Catholic School back in the 60’s. (Yes, lots of red flags there.) At this point in my life I lean agnostic. I believe in science, the cosmos but not religion(s) or Higher Powers. I cannot find it in myself that a God or a Higher Power has anything to do with one’s drug habit or life’s choices. I have thought about Faith but faith in what? Some magical wind will come into my life and make it all better, heal me, restore me back to the life I once had 30 years ago that apparently was so messed up I needed drugs to cope with it? Why would I want that life back (even though deep in my subconscious it still exists along with a bunch of other baggage.)
I’m just so frustrated with this whole to be high, not to be high battle.
I want immediate results that are just not going to happen. I quit smoking, drinking, weed, benzodiazepines, and barbiturates on my own with no help from any other source. I didn’t find it extremely difficult either. I was blessed. I was tired of it, had the desire to get it out of my life, went cold turkey, and walked away. I do not miss any of them and would never go back. I will never go back to those things. Every now and then there are cravings but they last a few seconds and disappear. Those monkeys are off my back and I've killed them all.

With opiates I’m having no such luck.

I just can’t seem to let go. I have severe degenerative disk disease and there is no drug or treatment that will ever take this pain away. Only death will. I use oxycodone. After I’m clean for about 3 weeks the pain is so incredible I have to take some. Unfortunately it doesn’t stop at one. How I wish. The high sets in, the boredom of my life goes away, and well, you know how it goes from there. Its just more comfortable to be high in pain then just to be in pain. I like to be high but I don’t like the dry spells and withdrawal.

This cycle of using, detoxing, obsessing, and using again must end no matter what. The time is now. It's getting harder and harder to do it. The high is no longer worth the downside. I just want it gone. This one just won't let go of me or I won't let go of it.

Here’s where I stand on the 12 Steps. Does anybody else feel the same or somewhat similar?

1. Yes, I am powerless over my addiction, but I find my life manageable. I don’t slack in responsibilities or finances. I have no relationships to answer to. Perhaps my self imposed isolation has left me nothing to manage in the relationship department.
2. I don’t believe in this.
3. I don’t believe in this.
4. YES I’m doing this.
5. I admitted to MYSELF the exact nature of any and all of my wrongs.
6. I don’t believe in this.
7. I don’t believe in this.
8. This I can do.
9. This cannot be done.
10. Redundant, see 4.
11. I don’t believe in this.
12. Not applicable to me.


1. We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. We humbly ask Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. We mad a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

larrylive

Well I suppose they call them steps because they should be done in order. With that in mind #2 seems to be where you're stuck. I must admit I too got hung up here. So what about, just for the sake of arguement we said "IF there was a God, could you believe it could restore you to sanity"? I mean, if there was a God, and it was all powerful then it should be able to restore a meager being such as myself to a right-minded type of person. So the problem seems to be our concept or perception of who or what God is.
And I, like you, have always been very scientificly minded. And as I search for God or try to improve my conscience contact I can atleast realize certain attributes such as gravity, light and time may all be parts of a great whole. And they are atleast responsible for many of the phenomonon in my life, and I ain't got the slightess idea how they do what they do. So perhaps they can in some way beyond my comprehension help restore me to sanity. It certainly takes a load off of my tired and confused mind by being able to think something might be able to help relieve me of my addiction. And all I have to do is believe. Why not. I can't see, feel, taste or hear gravity but I certainly believe in it.
Just some food for thought, mull it over and if you come up with a better concept let me know. But I am thinking billions of people through all the ages might be on to something. It's just the translations I have a problem with.

Larry

Aysha

I stuggle with that still. I have my doubts about the whole "God" thing. But as a believer in cosmos and the universe. It would very arrogant of me to think I was superior. So there has to be some sort of thing out there greater than me.
It doesnt have to be God or religion. Thats just he more familiar thing I guess.
I like to think that something along the lines of Karma is my HP. Put positive energy out and receive it in return. In other words..Keep my heart in the right place and my intentions pure. Cause and effect.
Wanting things to happen now now now...Well thats what addicts are use to. Its called instant gratification. But nothing good ever comes easy.
I am the last person to be trying to give advice. But I have learned that it takes a whole lot of hard work and getting out of my own head and open my ears and maybe take some advice once in awhile if I stand a chance.
I didnt think my life was unmanagable for a long time either. Unmanagable doesnt have to mean slack in responsibility. Unmanagable can mean alot fo things. For me it was simply not being able to shake the obsession to use. If I could I wouldnt be an addict.
For me powerless and unmanagable are the same. Because my thoughts get me almost everytime. I cant manage the thoughts. So I use.
I got a book call Buddhism and the 12 sreps. It shed a whole lot of light in how I could relate to the steps with what I believe.
Try and find soem books that will help you get a better understanding.
We cant do this alone. That I do know.
Good luck.

Oh..And I was told to look at the similarity not the differences. They were all addicts in the meetings I went to. And they all wanted to stop using. For whatever reason... That was the common goal.

Missybuns

EntreNous,
for me...the cycle of using, detoxing, obsessing, and using again was the unmanagable part for me.

Step two doesn't mention God. It suggests a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Doesn't say it will. Simply gives us hope.

I remember when I disqualified myself before I worked the steps one at a time as suggested. I had my own interpretations simply reading through them, too.

The big thing for me was until I had a sincere desire to stay clean (not worrying about if I stayed clean forever) I couldn't keep from disqualifying myself either!

I am by no means saying only the 12 steps will work for you. I do hope you are careful, no matter what recovery path you take, not to disqualify yourself right out of your own recovery.

We addicts can and do rationalize some outrageous sort of nonsense to justify the mess we have made of our lives. We can change our lives. No matter what process we engage ourselves in, it is a process and simply cannot be fully understood in the beginning...or before even starting.

I saw another addict share (on this site) “ I find it so interesting how people have such a problem with accepting a power greater than themselves at the exact same time they are being dominated by a power called alcohol.”
Of course alcohol is a drug so “drugs” can be inserted here and it means the same.

The steps are a path away from our self-centerness.
Other approaches may suit you better....what ever path you choose, doing it to the best of your ability is key.

What I have learned about anger and frustration is this:

Only one of two things is going on
1) I am refusing to give up what I know longer need

OR
2) I am refusing to accept what is required for the desired outcome.

When I get real with which of the two is really happening with me, I have become responsible for my anger/frustration and can accept it. Once I have taken responsibility for it, I can choose to change it.

Bests to you,
Missy

Missybuns

oh and ...you can insert "Good Orderly Direction" for God as you come to believe in what ever you choose. Has nothing to do with religion what so ever.

openmindedness can save our lives

Timebuster

EntreNous,

You don't have to believe in God to find recovery in the NA Program. My experience and that of countless other recoverying addicts indicates believing in some power greater than ourselves is necessary for any ongoing recovery. That Power might be the NA Program with thousands and thousands of Clean Addicts worldwide as proof the NA Program works, addicts who by and of ourselves could not stay Clean. Your Higher Power could be a rock to hit yourself up side the head. Whatever.

My best thinking and actions brought me HERE, my best thinking and my ways of (mis)managing my life through active addiction brought me to NA. It sounds like your best thinking has brought you here too. Give yourself a break and let yourself come to believe your best thinking may not be all it's cracked up to be. Maybe some of these tens of thousands addicts with many many years Clean time aren't all full of holier than thou crap.

I need to re-affirm my decision to surrender and turn my will over on a DAILY (if not hourly!!) basis. we, as addicts, have a habit of taking back our will when we feel it would make a situation easier to deal with. my obsession with trying to control every part of my life makes this step extremely uncomfortable, but growing pains hurt. I guess this has more to do with step three, the actual "decision" to turn over my will....but the foundation is established in the second step and coming to believe that our higher power could restore us to sanity. anyway, being completely thorough and entirely honest in our working of the steps is ESSENTIAL, and it is the only way we can get the help that lies within them.

As addicts we always want an easier softer way, doesn't exist. If you want what NA has to offer, freedom from active addiction and a better way of life, the NA Way is what works for us. Not just the parts we thought we liked when we got here. At some point we had to be willing to surrender our egos to something, anything greater than ourselves and recovery was then possible.

We are sick people with the deadly disease of addiction. However, through rigorously working the program of NA our disease can be arrested and recovery is then possible. Give yourself a break, it works if you want it and are willing to work it.

By the way, Aysha / Trish welcome back.

TB

Sugah

This was it for me, what I needed from the steps, and why they probably worked to keep me clean where other methods I tried didn't.

Aysha's suggestion that you look at the steps from a Buddhist perspective is a good one, and I hope you take it. There's a Secular 12-step forum here, too--have you checked it out?

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Suspicious

I cant offer you much help on the struggle to stay clean. I can offer you a possible alternative to the 12 steps. Check for a Unitarian Universalist Church in your area to see if they have a Sobriety Ministry program. Not all of the churches have a program in place but they could help to guide you towards a church that does. It is a support program that can fill in the gaps for those people who have struggle religious/ higher power aspect of traditional 12 step programs.

whiskerkissed

I also consider myself very agnostic and struggled (and still do to some degree) with the whole God concept. I was asked to draw a picture of what my Higher Power looked like to me. Everything nature. A wolf, an eagle, the mountains, a waterfall, a dragonfly, flowers - that which is comfortable for me. As long as it it more powerful than my disease which is more powerful than me.

G - Good
O - Orderly
D - Direction

My sponsor broke "Good Orderly Direction" down for me. "Positive process moving forward".

All that was asked of me is to believe there IS something bigger...and was specifically told it could be the cosmos. WHATEVER is comfortable for me!

I went through a period where I didn't think NA would work for me. I used my list of disqualifications, too...even though I knew I qualified. The 12 Steps were more than I could do. They wouldn't help me. My 35 yrs of using was too long for me to get better. So many excuses like that. I HAD to get a sponsor to guide me. Doing it by myself would not have given me that someone else to help me see what I couldn't see on my own. Someone subjective. I couldn't think about all 12 steps, but I would and it became overwhelming. Only one step at a time...one question at a time.

The steps are designed to help any addict lose the desire to stop using drugs IF they want it bad enough. It's work. It doesn't happen over night. It's a process that takes time. 7 miles in - 7 miles out. The unmanageability came from the inside and blew up in my life. The steps allow me to deal with that inside unmanageability and life gets a little easier to deal with. I become less self-centered and self-seeking.

There are addicts that have to take prescription meds in recovery. My ex-husband is one. I have had to take narcotics in recovery for short periods. I had to be VERY honest with myself, the people in the fellowship and my doctors. It allows me to be accountable for what I'm needing to take. It allows others to help me through it.

The steps didn't give me my old life back. The steps are giving me a better life I never knew. Instead of copping through life - I'm learning to cope. Baggage is getting lighter. Life still happens - but I'm learning to adjust my sails in the wind. This can happen for any addict through NA if they truly want it. Just need to give it a chance.

FT

Hey Entrenous,

I think we're close in age, I was a teen in the 60's, and I developed severe osteoarthritis over ten years ago. A few years ago, I tore the meniscus in my right knee, had an arthroscopy and walked with a limp, but I walked. Then, a little over 2 years ago, I tore my left meniscus, and by this time I was bone-on-bone in the other other knee and could not walk. I couldn't even manage the grocery store.

So, I had both knees replaced, and now I can walk. I also had a hysterectomy that was a near emergency, but I am alive. I still have severe osteoarthritis in every joint, and my hips and back aren't too happy. Turning over in bed at night even hurts.

Ahhh, yes, the good part. I became addicted to oxycodone at increasingly high doses as the surgeries progressed and time wore on. I discovered that it took more and more of the oxy to cut the pain. Then, it seemed the pain was there anyway, and I just needed the oxy to feel good. Then I needed it just to feel normal. Then, I didn't even feel normal anymore, except for about an hour time frame after each dose. If I waited too long for my next dose, I felt sick and began to sweat.

I won't go into more of the symptom crap, but I will tell you this. Opiates cause actually cause you to experience your pain differently. If you try to stop, your pain tolerance decreases. If you go a few days without oxys, the pain becomes unbearable and you can't move. Even if you could move, the energy provided by the oxys is gone, and you have the energy of a slug.

It isn't just me. There is something called "chronic reactive pain syndrome" that doesn't quite fit my symptomatology, but it works something like that.

I decided to stop oxys because I recognized what the drug was doing to me. It wasn't just for "pain", and it didn't just affect that system in my body. It affected my kidneys, my liver, my gastrointestinal system, my fluid balance, blood pressure, everything. Oxycodone, like other drugs, enters every cell of your body, exerting its effect on the target cells, or dopamine centers, which control your perception of pain and pleasure. Oh, I know, the "contented" feeling of being on oxy, not feeling the weight of the world so much as long as I was high. I know the feeling well.

Maybe you aren't taking enough to where you feel sick yet. If you are my age, it shouldn't be long. The drug drains you of your health, your vitality, your very ability to function as a normal human being. I understand DDD (degenerative disc disease), DJD (degenerative joint disease), etc. I have my own self as a case study, but I also do medical case reviews as a medical and legal professional, and I see cases like ours over and over and over and over again.

This drug is not for the long haul. Do you work out? Do you get ANY exercise? Are you healthy? Few drug addicts can say yes to these things, unless they are they other end (youth) and not heavily into use yet. Eventually, the drug will take you down. It is toxic.

The insidious nature of oxycodone/oxycontin/oxys is what gets me. May you, like me, did not intend to get addicted. I, too, quit other substances years ago, and never looked back. But THIS stuff is different. It truly screws with your brain chemicals, and the tenacles of addiction are inside of you before you knew what was happening to you.

I don't want to live every day counting pills, going to doctors, finding pharmacies who haven't already filled for me 100 times, or maybe eventually going to the street. Or ordering off the internet. Draining your back account and your health whatever way this drug can do.

I don't know if my words help you or not. I've written a lot on the "oxycodone withdrawal help" thread, and other oxy threads on this forum. I am no saint, I failed over and over again trying to get off this oxy nightmare drug, and finally in December I called it off and just STOPPED. I was sick for weeks, sought help here, and slowly, slowly, I am beginning to feel better.

I am 6 weeks out now, and talking BIG. The REAL test is now to deprive myself of my source of drug, which I did by telling my doctors I have an adverse reaction to opiates so now they will not prescribe them to me, and stay away from other ways that I know I could get this drug if I really wanted it.

It's not that I don't WANT to use oxys. I absolutely DO want to use them. But I had to decide how I was going to live my life, and I decided I could not do it that way anymore. The cost to my health and my life is just too high.

I hope you can do this. I don't give a crap about any 12 steps or whatever. That is not for me, but I am grateful it helps others. I am just not religious. I was raised Catholic and ran as far away from religion as I could when I was 18. Having said that, I think I am a spiritual person in the sense of our connectedness to one another, to the Universe, the cosmos.

I won't get all freaky on you. But I do find solace reading Ekhart Tolle's "A New Earth", and I really like the Desiradata. Simple enough things, although Tolle does get into religious doctrine a little, for philosophical purposes, but it works for me. Look, I'll be dead anyway in 30 years, so I want to make a good go at it.

Pain? Oh yeah, last thing on that. I deal with my pain off oxycodone with stretching, exercise, Motrin, Excedrin, ice, heat, massage. But not opiates. I find that after 6 weeks off the oxys, my pain threshold is higher than it was when I was on the drug. I have pain every day. My new knees still hurt, but I can walk. My hips hurt when I sit too long, so I get up and stretch. And my back hurts when I bend certain ways. My husband has what I call an "upside down machine" that works for his back.

As a medical case reviewer, I suggest avoiding orthopedic surgery, especially back surgery, as much as possible. New treatments are on the horizon, including artificial disks, but nothing substitutes for our own body parts. These knees let me walk, but they certainly do NOT work like real knees do.

Hang in there. I'm happy to share my experiences if they help you at all.

glitter

You don't have to make this decision. The only decision you have to make is to not use today.


Entrenous, try checking out this book (read the reviews at amazon):

One Breath at a Time: Buddhism and the Twelve Steps

I just ordered it. A woman in my step study group had it with her last night. It's looks really good. I too suffer with the Higher Power concept and I don't even like saying the word God. To get through step two for me, my sponsor had me write down the characteristics of my own personal higher power if one actually existed for me. I proceeded to write down, things like tolerant, non-judgemental, caring, loving, etc etc. When I was done she said, there ya go. That's your higher power! So simple.

Also, I don't remember who (maybe it was Zencat) who said when reading the NA or AA literature, if you don't like the word God, replace it with the word "Good." I do that now every time I read! I also do it with the words Higher Power. It's amazing what a difference it makes!!!!

The 12 Steps work if they're worked honestly and earnestly. It's quite simple really, but definitely work. The 12 Steps have saved and immensley improved the lives of millions. It's only religious if YOU make it religious.

SickButHappy

What's the saying? It's very appropriate...

"...Failing to Try is Far Worse Than Not Trying At All..."

We be human at the end of the day - give yourself a break...

look at bright future with virtually unlimited potential (for real)...

most certainly more potential than when under the influence... a shell of ourselves...

I dont know..

Try - Fall - Stand Back Up... But Try - Most Certainly Trying To Quit Is Going In The Right Direction...

Much better than the blissful blindness of intoxication...

BE STRONG SISTAH... I FEEL YA

Peace!

sBh

EntreNous

Six months ago I was obviously in a very dark mood. After reading my own words now, I realize that my drug behavior has also robbed me of God and religion. I have come to learn opiates robbed me of everything. I truly have become aware over the last few months.
Now the real work begins.

EntreNous

Failed Taper......I can totally relate to everything you wrote.

EntreNous

I didn't kmow I had any replies to my post. I had to get away for a while. Thank you all.

CarolD

Good to know you are making progress these days....Welcome back...

larrylive

Clarity of mind can often lead to understanding of that which we so adimitly refused to acknowledge.

Our perceptions and beliefs reflect the life we live, I have chosen to see things differently and the path I follow was not available before I began to change.

I wish you success in your journey.

Larry