Another attempt to talk...

Old 12-30-2009, 04:56 PM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 688
Another attempt to talk...

I think it was on this site I was told there's NOTHING that can be done with an alcoholic family. I am child #2, and it was seeing the chart (probably here) on roles in alcoholic families and child #2 being the scapegoat that finally opened my eyes completely.

The background is a sister who wanted to host the perfect family holidays, and ended up both years screaming, once at my daughter, once at me. I am once again the bad guy for refusing to go a third time. My entire family takes the attitude that I am to blame for her rage and if I were just a better mother, this wouldn't have happened. (Lots of people think I'm a great mother, btw.)

Since my dad informed me her tempers were my fault, and went on to tell me my kids are out of control (no, they're just a bunch of little boys who are still learning and I DEFINITELY am teaching, and my older kids are proof I'm doing it well); that I'm a hypocrite because his daughters who don't go to church don't have these problems, that he 'doesn't like the new me,' and 'can't stand being around my kids.' There was actually quite a bit more than that. When I pointed out my sister has a long history of rages and melt-downs, he just denied it. When I pointed out that I don't scream at people, he said that's because THEY are not annoying. He ordered me to 'teach my children properly,' and be more sociable at the next holiday (my sister, in contrast was screaming at me that I talk too much) and to help with the serving and cleaning up (I always have.) And do it all while keeping a whole bunch of boys quiet for hours on end.

I quit going to any family holidays at that point. The only possible way to accomplish this much control is to scream at my boys the way my parents screamed at me, and I refuse to do that.

So they invite us every holiday. I politely decline. I'm the bad guy. Tonight I finally called and asked, "Why do you want us there if you don't like me and can't stand being around my kids?" He denied saying it, and for him, as long as he denies it, end of problem.

He continued to insist my kids are 'out of control' although I pointed out they have never knocked out street lights, thrown dummies in front of cars, or ended up in juvie for theft like him and his brothers. Doesn't matter. They're loud sometimes and they run sometimes.

He said he doesn't understand why I'm upset with everyone. I told him calmly because it's years of abuse, such as chasing me barefoot through snowbanks trying to kill me, blaming me for his marriage problems, telling me repeatedly throughout high school he doesn't like me and everything I do is 'half-assed,' choking me.

He denied it all and said I'm imagining things.

As a side note, my sister took my older daughter for babysitting a few months ago and simply never brought her home! More than 24 hours later (I had been at work and thought she was home), I had to call around and find her. She wasn't with my sister at all. I asked my sister to call next time and let me know where my daughter is. Didn't yell, just a polite request. My sister had the gall to start shouting at me that obviously I was mad and just trying to pick a fight. This is the way they behave and can't understand why I have a problem with it. Go figure.

I think I'll stop there. It went on and on with my dad. I stayed calm, and he just kept denying things had happened or explaining they were really my fault, anyway. All I can say is, I tried once again. My conscience is clear.

I believe I have done everything in my power, short of screaming my kids into silence, and I believe it's true. There's NOTHING that can be done to make this a good situation for all of us. I would very much like to move away, but we uprooted everything 5 years ago to give the kids family, thinking things were better. We can't really afford to do it again, in addition to the fact that I like being home among former friends and other family, and don't want to have to move.

I am getting much better, though, at seeing this as their problem, rather than believing I'm all the things they say I am.

Happy New Year to everyone!



EveningRose is offline  
Old 12-31-2009, 04:33 PM
  # 2 (permalink)  
Member
 
dothi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Anywhere but the mainstream.
Posts: 402
Hi EveningRose,

Nothing will change until they want to change. It's not going to be you. It's not even going to be you screaming your kids into silence. Even if you DID do everything in your power it would not be enough. Just like a couch potato who sits around eating chips and watching tv, unhealthy people have to want to get healthy. You can't run those laps for them.

Originally Posted by EveningRose View Post
It went on and on with my dad. I stayed calm, and he just kept denying things had happened or explaining they were really my fault, anyway. All I can say is, I tried once again.
If you're feeling a little crazy, well no surprise there hon! What is the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. What have you been doing? Trying to rationalize with an insane person over and over again, and being disappointed by the results!

An alcoholic is NOT a rational person (hence they see no problem with drinking too much, or treating their children like they are full-fledged adults responsible for their needs).

An alcoholic is an irrational person who has built their reality around their needs. They have constructed justifications for why they need to stay the way they are. This is why it doesn't matter what evidence you present them with in hopes of getting them to see the light. They will alway have a reason (no matter how irrational) for telling you that your reality isn't what you say it is - including how you feel and what you've experienced. They would even tell you that you are NOT sad/depressed if you were sitting and crying right in front of them. This is why "reasoning" with them is crazy-making.

Originally Posted by EveningRose View Post
He said he doesn't understand why I'm upset with everyone. I told him calmly because it's years of abuse, such as chasing me barefoot through snowbanks trying to kill me, blaming me for his marriage problems, telling me repeatedly throughout high school he doesn't like me and everything I do is 'half-assed,' choking me.

He denied it all and said I'm imagining things.
What are you hoping your dad is going to do? What is it you still need from him? Acknowledgement? To stick up for you? How long are you going to keep doing this even though he is not capable of giving this to you? He is not healthy and he does not know what healthy looks like (including how young boys behave - they're not going to act like little robots, they're going to act like kids). Repeat: he does not know how to be healthy for you or your kids. And until he WANTS to be healthy, he's not going to learn. Same with your sister.

Originally Posted by EveningRose View Post
So they invite us every holiday. I politely decline. I'm the bad guy.
This struck a chord with me, as it's something I've been dealing with lately: repeating my A-parent's advice to myself for him when he's not around.

You keep repeating these words in this post: you're the bad guy. EveningRose, you need to ask yourself: do you really believe that you are the bad guy?

Because if not, then you need to build yourself up and STOP doing your family's toxic job for them. Because you are NOT the bad guy.

This may seem a little harda$$, but if you're telling yourself this each time you walk away from a family encounter, then no wonder you feel like sh*t. I know you think you're just repeating how they see it, but if you're reminding yourself that you're the bad guy every time you stand up for yourself, then what's the difference between saying it and believing it? Tell a child they're stupid long enough and eventually they'll start to believe it. Tell yourself you're stupid long enough, and eventually why should you hope to feel any better?

Originally Posted by EveningRose View Post
I quit going to any family holidays at that point.
This is good. Now when are you going to quit accepting the abuse? (e.g. the accusations that you are responsible for another grown adult's temper) It's not okay - not even from family. Family is not a license for abuse.

Please don't think I am trying to tear you down, EveningRose. I'm absolutely not, and I know how the holidays can really stir up family emotions. You are certainly making progress, and from this corner of the interwebs it's tough even for this complete stranger to read without feeling frustrated on your behalf. I hope you're spending this new year's eve with supportive family and friends.
dothi is offline  
Old 12-31-2009, 08:41 PM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Power is not having to respond
 
Wascally Wabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wabbit Hole
Posts: 1,923
I grew up with a screaming alcoholic mother so I know what that's about. My story is long, but let me just say that my mom's been sober for 30 years and still has issues. She is a hypochondriac since I have known her. She constantly complains from sun up to sun down. She is negative energy all around. So, I just choose not to have too much to do with her. Only once or twice a year. That's enough for me. Just because the alcohol is gone, does not mean the behavior is.

You simply can not win with them. They believe they are superior over everyone, especially their kids. I think that comes from needing that control.
But, when the kids grow up and don't allow the controlling any more, they resort to other things like blaming you for everything, or, criticizing everything you do.

I know what I am. I know who I am. I don't need or want to listen to garbage or destroy my serenity by having a negative person around me! I have a choice NOT to indulge her.

Hang in there. You are doing a GREAT job. So what if dad wants to blame you for her temper tantrums? He can deal with them. Sounds like she has rage.
Wascally Wabbit is offline  
Old 01-01-2010, 06:21 AM
  # 4 (permalink)  
Member
 
tromboneliness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Back East
Posts: 704
Originally Posted by dothi View Post
An alcoholic is an irrational person who has built their reality around their needs. They have constructed justifications for why they need to stay the way they are. This is why it doesn't matter what evidence you present them with in hopes of getting them to see the light. They will alway have a reason (no matter how irrational) for telling you that your reality isn't what you say it is - including how you feel and what you've experienced.
This is my Dad -- who turned 90 this past Monday, thereby validating his belief that he is (as Wabbit says above) "superior over everyone, especially their kids."

My Dad's entire personal life revolves around being, and proving himself, superior to everyone else. (What makes it annoying is that he is, in fact, extremely intelligent -- a brilliant scientist in his day, and even at 90, able to describe scientific work he did 50 years ago and, if the phone should ring, he could even do consulting work today.) So he is equipped with Superior Intelligence™ He has consumed quantities of alcohol that would kill a horse many times over, but has suffered no apparent health effects -- clear evidence of Superior Physical Constitution™. And having outlived everyone else in the family -- he has two sisters still soldiering on, but they are both frail and suffering from varying degrees of dementia -- he has Superior Stamina™. So it's not just that he thinks he's superior -- he can actually point to a number of important areas in which he is, I grudgingly admit, pretty tough to beat.

But -- here's what I'm getting at -- as you say, "Family is not a license for abuse." The fact that my Dad is smarter than a lot of people, has lived longer than most, has accomplished a lot, and all in all, looks great on paper, does not justify treating his family like indentured servants. We all worked for him growing up, but there is a reason why both of his kids now live in other states. He does not get this at all.

Now, despite my Dad's overall Superior Constitution™, he is quite frail -- he's 90, after all. He's got a pacemaker because of atrial fibrillation, his balance isn't great, his eyesight is sort-of okay but not that great anymore, his stamina isn't good, and he has a tendency to poop in his pants from time to time. Add it up, and he might be a good candidate for assisted living -- which his doctor has repeatedly recommended. But no -- he refuses, digs in his heels, and says no, he wants to die in the 3,000-square-foot house on an acre and a half in the suburbs where he's been living since 1964.

My sister (you'll recall she's the World's Biggest People Pleaser and Codependent) was in town this past week, and she had a guy come over, from an agency that offers a whole bunch of in-home services for elderly people. My Dad apparently spent the whole time arguing that he didn't need anything, and that it was ridiculous that the agency took a cut of what he'd be paying for the services provided by nurses, housekeepers, etc. My Dad, in addition to being as described above, is also the cheapest person in the universe and believes that no one has the right to earn a living doing anything he has to pay for. Ergo, no help from the agency -- despite the fact that an old scientific colleague of his, who lives right down the street, uses them and is apparently happy with the services they provide.

So it goes. The unspoken part of this is that Dad would like me to move back to the house I grew up in. Well, ain't no way that's happening. But just as it would be insane (same thing, expecting diff. results) for me to expect his attitude to change at this point, it's equally insane for him to think he's going to get me (and, presumably, my wife) back there. As my old boss used to say, "No way. No f890ing way. Absolutely no f890ing way. Absolutely, positively, no f890ing way!"

T
tromboneliness is offline  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:30 AM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 688
Originally Posted by dothi View Post


If you're feeling a little crazy, well no surprise there hon! What is the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.


Thanks, dothi. I have kept my distance from February when he launched his invectives (the last straw) until now. I called because over and over, every holiday major or minor, they invite us, and when I say no thank you, they call my kids and make sure they know, and then I have to deal with the kids' disappointment. I finally called to ask why he even wants us if he 'doesn't like me' and 'can't stand being around my kids.' My husband kept saying, "Maybe he doesn't remember the things he said." Actually, this is the first time I have REALLY spoken up, rather than listening with dropped jaw while they tell me my faults.

I hoped if I insisted on speaking this time, it might be different. His reaction is clear evidence of exactly what you say.

I tried to talk to my sister a couple months ago when she 'apologized' but went on to explain her tempers both years were my fault. I ended up blocking her e-mail address.



They will alway have a reason (no matter how irrational) for telling you that your reality isn't what you say it is - including how you feel and what you've experienced. They would even tell you that you are NOT sad/depressed if you were sitting and crying right in front of them. This is why "reasoning" with them is crazy-making.
Yes. One of the things that has left me doubting myself as an adult is being told repeatedly by my mother (the non-alcoholic) why I did things. As a child, it left me very confused constantly being told by an adult that my own motives were not what I thought they were in my head.



What are you hoping your dad is going to do?
I was hoping, as it's the first time I've insisted on speaking, that he'd listen and open his mind. And now that I see he won't, I have blocked his e-mail address, too.


This struck a chord with me, as it's something I've been dealing with lately: repeating my A-parent's advice to myself for him when he's not around.

You keep repeating these words in this post: you're the bad guy. EveningRose, you need to ask yourself: do you really believe that you are the bad guy?
No, I don't. I was, as you said, stating it as their view, not as what I believe, but I do see the sense in what you say about repeating it in any way at all.



This is good. Now when are you going to quit accepting the abuse? (e.g. the accusations that you are responsible for another grown adult's temper) It's not okay - not even from family. Family is not a license for abuse.
I myself have stopped going for holidays and ended contact. What hurts right now is that they don't do these things to my kids. My kids want to go for holidays-- at least the older ones, who have been treated more kindly than the younger ones. Even now, one or two of my older kids are going to my parents' for dinner today. I fear growing old and finding my children choose my family over me. My sisters will always see me as the problem child because that's how my parents have portrayed me all these years, and I'm afraid of them doing the same to my children. My husband went over last night, and my dad lectured him about how I'm burning my bridges with them. I'm afraid they're going to say the same things to my kids today at dinner.

A friend keeps assuring me that my children love and respect me and will not reject me like that. I think I have very good relationships with all of them. They want to go to movies and out to lunch with me, even as teenagers and young adults. I have explained to them why I've finally drawn a line, some of the abuse that has gone on, and I make a point not to tell them over and over (I hated the way my mother figuratively pinned me to the wall and beat me with evil mother in law stories, to try to make sure I hated, too.)

One of the things I wonder about is this: my younger sister took my daughter for babysitting and simply never brought her home. When I called my sister and said you need to let me know next time where my daughter is, my sister not only chewed me out for 'picking a fight' (cause, yeah, I have no right to know where my daughter is), she also threw my daughter under the bus, saying, "Yell (not that I was yelling at all) at your daughter. SHE should have called you." It bothers me to see my daughter unaware that her aunt is not her friend and will not have her back when the chips are down. Does she just need to learn this on her own? I believe I will be seen as sour grapes and bad mouthing if I point this out. My sister, btw, has treated my daughter well, other than that.


Please don't think I am trying to tear you down, EveningRose. I'm absolutely not, and I know how the holidays can really stir up family emotions. You are certainly making progress, and from this corner of the interwebs it's tough even for this complete stranger to read without feeling frustrated on your behalf. I hope you're spending this new year's eve with supportive family and friends.
No fears, dothi. I generally trust people on a site like this to have each other's best interests at heart and speak out of concern. I spent last night and today with my kids and husband, and am having a peaceful day, apart from the issue of my daughter going to my parents' for dinner.
EveningRose is offline  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:38 AM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 688
Originally Posted by Wascally Wabbit View Post
I grew up with a screaming alcoholic mother so I know what that's about. Only once or twice a year. That's enough for me. Just because the alcohol is gone, does not mean the behavior is.

You simply can not win with them. They believe they are superior over everyone, especially their kids.

Hang in there. You are doing a GREAT job. So what if dad wants to blame you for her temper tantrums? He can deal with them. Sounds like she has rage.
Thank you! Of course, my sister doesn't rage at my dad, because they all understand the family dynamics of who may and may not be raged at.

Yes, she does believe she's superior. She has never raised boys or a large family (mine is huge), she was not able to raise a few girls without constant screaming and yelling, yet she has done plenty of advising me on how to run my household. Amazing. I finally realized my aunt made no effort to get together with her (my mom always complained about that) because every time they went to lunch, my mom told my aunt how to raise her children. Duh.

My dad was diagnosed as a dry drunk years ago. He continues to drink but rarely/ never gets drunk. I found out last night he has made a new year's resolution to quit drinking. I have no idea if he came up with that on his own or if people are repeating what I'm finally saying. For those who pray, I hope you'll pray he also goes to AA.
EveningRose is offline  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:41 AM
  # 7 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 688
Tromboneliness, it sounds like we have the same father. It helps so much to hear the same story from others, especially others who seem strong enough to see it for exactly what it is. I have been lucky to have a few friends who see it from a distance, rather than having been subjected to the brainwashing all their lives, who tell me over and over this is not normal.

One of the huge helps to me has been seeing my own children grow older and have a good relationship with me, unlike anything I ever had with my parents, to see that I have been able to change my behavior from how my parents dealt with me, and see how abnormal my life really was in comparison to what I see in my own children and my friends' families.
EveningRose is offline  
Old 01-01-2010, 04:51 PM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
 
Carol Star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,334
I don't do holidays with my family anymore.....peace on earth.....not crazies and chaos.....I have a new recovery family. Who needs the chaos? I do love them from a distance and have compassion for them because they are not in recovery and are still on the hamster wheel. If they criticize me I say " I am sorry I am not living up to YOUR expectations of me."....not my expectations of me.......Who needs it?Let go or be dragged.
Carol Star is offline  
Old 01-01-2010, 07:07 PM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 688
Originally Posted by Carol Star View Post
If they criticize me I say " I am sorry I am not living up to YOUR expectations of me."....not my expectations of me.......
That will go into my repertoire. Thank you.
EveningRose is offline  
Old 01-01-2010, 08:06 PM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Member
 
dothi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Anywhere but the mainstream.
Posts: 402
Originally Posted by Carol Star View Post
" I am sorry I am not living up to YOUR expectations of me."
Agreed! What a handy new tool!
dothi is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:22 PM.