This is why I'm here
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This is why I'm here
I don't know where to begin.
My grandfather was an alcoholic. He drank Jack Daniels even after he was diagnosed with diabetes and emphysema and was buried with a bottle in his casket (his wishes). My father suffered physical abuse from him and then married my mother - a codependent/enabler turned alcoholic.
Although I cannot remember my father excessively drunk very many times in my life, he was mean and violent as well as condescending and belittling to me. My mother pretended and still pretends that she didn't know about the abuse that my older sister and I suffered from him.
My therapists have labelled my mother an addict. But my mother will be sure to quote from a website which defines an alcoholic as someone who drinks some specified daily amount of alcohol with which she is below (other drugs notwithstanding and this doesn't include her drug dealing boyfriend either).
Like the other members of this forum there were defined roles in my family. My role was the scapegoat. It has been difficult. I think that my sisters are in denial about the level of dysfunction and abuse that existed and exists in our family. This denial extends to my aunts, uncles, cousins and surviving grandparents.
Throughout my life I have often felt alone, confused and frustrated. I've spent untold hours rehashing events and conversations in my mind while trying to figure out how to communicate things to family members. Because as a scapegoat EVERYTHING you do or say or don't do or don't say can be used against you.
This is a long post. Thanks for reading this.
My grandfather was an alcoholic. He drank Jack Daniels even after he was diagnosed with diabetes and emphysema and was buried with a bottle in his casket (his wishes). My father suffered physical abuse from him and then married my mother - a codependent/enabler turned alcoholic.
Although I cannot remember my father excessively drunk very many times in my life, he was mean and violent as well as condescending and belittling to me. My mother pretended and still pretends that she didn't know about the abuse that my older sister and I suffered from him.
My therapists have labelled my mother an addict. But my mother will be sure to quote from a website which defines an alcoholic as someone who drinks some specified daily amount of alcohol with which she is below (other drugs notwithstanding and this doesn't include her drug dealing boyfriend either).
Like the other members of this forum there were defined roles in my family. My role was the scapegoat. It has been difficult. I think that my sisters are in denial about the level of dysfunction and abuse that existed and exists in our family. This denial extends to my aunts, uncles, cousins and surviving grandparents.
Throughout my life I have often felt alone, confused and frustrated. I've spent untold hours rehashing events and conversations in my mind while trying to figure out how to communicate things to family members. Because as a scapegoat EVERYTHING you do or say or don't do or don't say can be used against you.
This is a long post. Thanks for reading this.
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 87
I appreciate you sharing your experience. Your situation is similar to mine in that everyone...siblings and extended family members are in denial. Scapegoat and the lost child have been familiar roles to me. The only time I have been the hero was during the rare times I went along with what everyone wanted me to do and believe--which meant ignoring the problems/abuse/elephants.
I will have to try to find that article you mentioned at a later time when I have a moment. It is difficult to cut ties w/ biological family members b/c they are the ones who have known us from day one and they also are the ones who are supposed to love and respect us. However, not all of us are that lucky to have reliable and trustworthy families. .... Take care and be good to yourself. Thanks again!
-Amanda
I will have to try to find that article you mentioned at a later time when I have a moment. It is difficult to cut ties w/ biological family members b/c they are the ones who have known us from day one and they also are the ones who are supposed to love and respect us. However, not all of us are that lucky to have reliable and trustworthy families. .... Take care and be good to yourself. Thanks again!
-Amanda
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Anywhere but the mainstream.
Posts: 402
Hi StellaBlu, welcome to our corner of SR and thanks for sharing your story 
They really reassure me about the patterns alcoholic families follow (and makes me feel less guilty about the decisions I've made with my own family of origin, when those doubts come creeping up).
I played the Hero in my family, and my sister played the Scapegoat. Out of the three children, I believe my sister always had the most clarity as to how dysfunctional we were. That's probably what distinguished her scapegoat - although she couldn't articulate it as a child, she was constantly prodding and calling attention to the faultlines in our family system. So what better way to deal with a child who isn't helping the system work (whose prodding ultimately threatens the supply of alcohol) than to make them out to be completely wrong/stupid/unworthy/ungrateful/etc.
I was in denial for many years longer than my sister, and I see now how much more damaged I am in some ways because being the family Hero lulled me into accepting the alcoholic rules for much longer. There's a "reward" for being Hero - it's the promise that if you play Hero well enough, that you can "fix" your family and finally be happy. My sister never bought into any of that - she saw the dysfunction and wanted out.
I used to re-hash too - thinking of how to say things just right to get everyone to see how to better themselves. What helped me accept that I don't need to do that anymore was to realize for the alcoholics in my family is that they think this lifestyle is normal. My alcoholic father thinks it's perfectly normal to keep women at home, deprive them of socialization and hobbies, guilt them for wanting things for themselves (because they're at home and not bringing in the dough, right? so how are they contributing?). When I look at his family history, his father was like that, and his grandfather was probably like that. So it's partly a learned family system. That doesn't dismiss anything, but it helped me realize that I'm not going to change the alcoholic in my family because he believes there's nothing wrong with what he's doing.
This forum is a rare treat for people like us because in the midst of the isolation, many of us are finding that we are finally not alone in what we are going through. The lessons we can't put into words can still be shared through our stories.
They really reassure me about the patterns alcoholic families follow (and makes me feel less guilty about the decisions I've made with my own family of origin, when those doubts come creeping up).I played the Hero in my family, and my sister played the Scapegoat. Out of the three children, I believe my sister always had the most clarity as to how dysfunctional we were. That's probably what distinguished her scapegoat - although she couldn't articulate it as a child, she was constantly prodding and calling attention to the faultlines in our family system. So what better way to deal with a child who isn't helping the system work (whose prodding ultimately threatens the supply of alcohol) than to make them out to be completely wrong/stupid/unworthy/ungrateful/etc.
I was in denial for many years longer than my sister, and I see now how much more damaged I am in some ways because being the family Hero lulled me into accepting the alcoholic rules for much longer. There's a "reward" for being Hero - it's the promise that if you play Hero well enough, that you can "fix" your family and finally be happy. My sister never bought into any of that - she saw the dysfunction and wanted out.
I used to re-hash too - thinking of how to say things just right to get everyone to see how to better themselves. What helped me accept that I don't need to do that anymore was to realize for the alcoholics in my family is that they think this lifestyle is normal. My alcoholic father thinks it's perfectly normal to keep women at home, deprive them of socialization and hobbies, guilt them for wanting things for themselves (because they're at home and not bringing in the dough, right? so how are they contributing?). When I look at his family history, his father was like that, and his grandfather was probably like that. So it's partly a learned family system. That doesn't dismiss anything, but it helped me realize that I'm not going to change the alcoholic in my family because he believes there's nothing wrong with what he's doing.
This forum is a rare treat for people like us because in the midst of the isolation, many of us are finding that we are finally not alone in what we are going through. The lessons we can't put into words can still be shared through our stories.
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 958
Dothi & Amanda,
Thank you for your comments. It is comforting to know that others are further along in dealing with these issues that I am still struggling with. I appreciate your sharing. Also, my family does not validate my feelings so it's nice to be able to get validation from your comments. It reassures me that I am not alone.
Here is a little bit more about my situation: I have cut off ties with my father well more than 15 years ago. I have never regretted this decision. For me it was a no-brainer. He truly is one of the most self absorbed people that I have ever met in my life. From my perspective, he and I had never really bonded even when I was a kid. When I was 8 he told me that I was the reason why my older sister ran away (she was 10) after he had sexually abused her. I apologize if this is too much information but I don't know how else to say it. In that same conversation he told me that I was a bad kid and that I had no friends. I have what feels like hundreds more stories of him just like this one - like the time when I was 13 and he told me that I was a 'rotten kid and didn't deserve a birthday present'. Or the time he broke the laundry table when he threw me onto it because I hadn't washed his clothes. I could go on and on but I think you get it. He is/was bad news.
When I first cut ties with him, my mother (who is divorced from him because of his cheating and the fact that he left her for another woman) and my sisters (even the one who was sexually abused by him) rallied on his behalf and applied pressure on me to reconcile with him. I refused. I held my ground. My decision to cut ties with him was not that difficult, in retrospect, compared to the amazement and pain I had seeing my sisters and mother still under his control and domination. Now, in the last couple of years and more than 15 years after I cut off ties with him, my older sister no longer speaks to him nor does her daughter (my neice) and my mother has apparently expressed to my neice that she thinks he is 'atrocious'.
To be clear: My father is a closed chapter in my life. He does not bring me anxiety and I have no emotion when I rarely think about him. I don't want to see my father suffer at all. I just don't want to be subjected to him. I don't want him to be a part of my life and I don't want to be a part of his life.
So that's the situation with my father.
My mother and sisters are another story. They are a whole other source of frustration and confusion for me. And it is with them that I'm considering cutting off ties (again) with as well and it is not as straightforward as it was with my father.
To describe my mother I could pick any number of things that Amanda has already written about her own mother. My mother is a peice of work. In a nutshell she is just not much of a mother. She let my father do and say things to me and my older sister that he should not have been able to get away with doing. And she herself has said some really mean things to me over the years. But I think the biggest disappointment that I have regarding my mother is her blatant abandonment of me (as well as my older sister) when things got/get difficult. Shortly after I cut ties with my father, I found myself in a very challenging and stressful and life changing situation. My mother and I had different points of view as to how to resolve the issue and when I didn't do what she suggested she proceeded to put me down and condescend to me. The line I remember the most was: "You know, you're not going to get what you want". As if she would know. I told her that if she couldn't refrain from bringing up the issue that she should not call me. So she stopped calling me. And as a result my sisters stopped calling me (I lived and still live in another state from them). My younger sister will refer to that time period as when "sb took a break from the family". I guess that was sort of true but then it allows them to not take responsibility for that fact that they didn't call me either. Were they taking a break from me as well??
Moving on. A few years later, I did 'reconcile' with them. But it was rough. I remember the first time I saw my mother after many years. She came to visit me in California. I remember driving my car down beautiful Big Sur having a raging argument with my mother. I asked her why she let my father abuse my older sister in the way that he did. Her response: "Well if it doesn't bother M(mysister) then why should it bother you?". This was when they all still had a relationship with him.
Is it just me or is that incredibly dysfunctional?
I wasn't trying to do my sister's bidding for her but she is my sister and I do care about what happens and has happened to her.
I don't know how I managed to get beyond that conversation with my mother but I did. But after the most recent situation that I've had with her I am rethinking my approach to my relationship with her. Last January my live-in boyfriend found himself in an unfortunate situation which he admits that he had partially caused. My mother happened to have called me two months after it happened. She loves my boyfriend (probably more than she does me) and she was in shock. After a few more comments to me I said to her "you know he could have done XYZ to prevent this". She then said to me in the most judging and snappish (is that a word?) tone possible: "You didn't say that to him did you?" I was livid. I wrapped up the conversation quickly and decided not to ever call her again.
After all the work I had done to try to make my relationship with her better/good she hurts me by snapping at me with that judgmental comment. This is a woman who basically stood by and watched her children be abused by her husband. And she is judging me?? Where does she get the right?
NINE months later she called me (last week) not to apologize for snapping at me but to wish me a happy birthday and to pretend that nothing out of the ordinary has happened.
This is a long post and it feels good to get this off my chest. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you reading this. And I appreciate all of your previous insights and comments. It really is very helpful.
sb
Thank you for your comments. It is comforting to know that others are further along in dealing with these issues that I am still struggling with. I appreciate your sharing. Also, my family does not validate my feelings so it's nice to be able to get validation from your comments. It reassures me that I am not alone.
Here is a little bit more about my situation: I have cut off ties with my father well more than 15 years ago. I have never regretted this decision. For me it was a no-brainer. He truly is one of the most self absorbed people that I have ever met in my life. From my perspective, he and I had never really bonded even when I was a kid. When I was 8 he told me that I was the reason why my older sister ran away (she was 10) after he had sexually abused her. I apologize if this is too much information but I don't know how else to say it. In that same conversation he told me that I was a bad kid and that I had no friends. I have what feels like hundreds more stories of him just like this one - like the time when I was 13 and he told me that I was a 'rotten kid and didn't deserve a birthday present'. Or the time he broke the laundry table when he threw me onto it because I hadn't washed his clothes. I could go on and on but I think you get it. He is/was bad news.
When I first cut ties with him, my mother (who is divorced from him because of his cheating and the fact that he left her for another woman) and my sisters (even the one who was sexually abused by him) rallied on his behalf and applied pressure on me to reconcile with him. I refused. I held my ground. My decision to cut ties with him was not that difficult, in retrospect, compared to the amazement and pain I had seeing my sisters and mother still under his control and domination. Now, in the last couple of years and more than 15 years after I cut off ties with him, my older sister no longer speaks to him nor does her daughter (my neice) and my mother has apparently expressed to my neice that she thinks he is 'atrocious'.
To be clear: My father is a closed chapter in my life. He does not bring me anxiety and I have no emotion when I rarely think about him. I don't want to see my father suffer at all. I just don't want to be subjected to him. I don't want him to be a part of my life and I don't want to be a part of his life.
So that's the situation with my father.
My mother and sisters are another story. They are a whole other source of frustration and confusion for me. And it is with them that I'm considering cutting off ties (again) with as well and it is not as straightforward as it was with my father.
To describe my mother I could pick any number of things that Amanda has already written about her own mother. My mother is a peice of work. In a nutshell she is just not much of a mother. She let my father do and say things to me and my older sister that he should not have been able to get away with doing. And she herself has said some really mean things to me over the years. But I think the biggest disappointment that I have regarding my mother is her blatant abandonment of me (as well as my older sister) when things got/get difficult. Shortly after I cut ties with my father, I found myself in a very challenging and stressful and life changing situation. My mother and I had different points of view as to how to resolve the issue and when I didn't do what she suggested she proceeded to put me down and condescend to me. The line I remember the most was: "You know, you're not going to get what you want". As if she would know. I told her that if she couldn't refrain from bringing up the issue that she should not call me. So she stopped calling me. And as a result my sisters stopped calling me (I lived and still live in another state from them). My younger sister will refer to that time period as when "sb took a break from the family". I guess that was sort of true but then it allows them to not take responsibility for that fact that they didn't call me either. Were they taking a break from me as well??
Moving on. A few years later, I did 'reconcile' with them. But it was rough. I remember the first time I saw my mother after many years. She came to visit me in California. I remember driving my car down beautiful Big Sur having a raging argument with my mother. I asked her why she let my father abuse my older sister in the way that he did. Her response: "Well if it doesn't bother M(mysister) then why should it bother you?". This was when they all still had a relationship with him.
Is it just me or is that incredibly dysfunctional?
I wasn't trying to do my sister's bidding for her but she is my sister and I do care about what happens and has happened to her.
I don't know how I managed to get beyond that conversation with my mother but I did. But after the most recent situation that I've had with her I am rethinking my approach to my relationship with her. Last January my live-in boyfriend found himself in an unfortunate situation which he admits that he had partially caused. My mother happened to have called me two months after it happened. She loves my boyfriend (probably more than she does me
) and she was in shock. After a few more comments to me I said to her "you know he could have done XYZ to prevent this". She then said to me in the most judging and snappish (is that a word?) tone possible: "You didn't say that to him did you?" I was livid. I wrapped up the conversation quickly and decided not to ever call her again. After all the work I had done to try to make my relationship with her better/good she hurts me by snapping at me with that judgmental comment. This is a woman who basically stood by and watched her children be abused by her husband. And she is judging me?? Where does she get the right?
NINE months later she called me (last week) not to apologize for snapping at me but to wish me a happy birthday and to pretend that nothing out of the ordinary has happened.
This is a long post and it feels good to get this off my chest. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you reading this. And I appreciate all of your previous insights and comments. It really is very helpful.
sb
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Anywhere but the mainstream.
Posts: 402
Originally Posted by StellaBlu 
When I first cut ties with him, my mother (who is divorced from him because of his cheating and the fact that he left her for another woman) and my sisters (even the one who was sexually abused by him) rallied on his behalf and applied pressure on me to reconcile with him.
Your mom and sisters were not ready to face the reality of what kind of person he is. They probably wanted "to leave the past in the past" (a tagline I've heard in my family a lot). You cutting off contact acknowledged that not only was there something bad in the past, but that it was also still unresolved.
Re: abused sister. She probably didn't want to feel responsible for creating a family rift. How much do you want to bet she was hearing things like, "he didn't do anything to Stella - what happened is none of her business."
Sexual abuse had its place in my family too. IME because children are growing up in an environment where they are already forced to parent their parents, when abuse like this happens and their only source of stability (a suffering family) threatens to fall apart, they continue to carry that responsibility of keeping the family together - even at the cost of being abused. Because they are growing up in a dysfunctional home, they do not get to learn that it's the abuser who is responsible - not the victim. That's too bad about your sister, because it sounds to me that growing up in an abusive home has left her believing that any kind of abuse is ultimately okay if mom/dad does it. Your parents aren't really responsible, right?
Originally Posted by StellaBlu
I don't want to see my father suffer at all. I just don't want to be subjected to him. I don't want him to be a part of my life and I don't want to be a part of his life.
Originally Posted by StellaBlu
My younger sister will refer to that time period as when "sb took a break from the family". I guess that was sort of true but then it allows them to not take responsibility for that fact that they didn't call me either. Were they taking a break from me as well??
Originally Posted by StellaBlu
Her response: "Well if it doesn't bother M(mysister) then why should it bother you?"
My sister and I were both sexually abused by a family member on my AF's side. I (Hero) took on the responsibility of parenting my AF, became a rock in the family, and "moved forward." I thought I was doing a good job. My sister OTOH struggled, and she heard that exact same line over and over again. When I got older and wanted counselling, it was "hush hush" and "I thought you had dealt with it". "Past is in the past, so why bring it up now?"
Originally Posted by StellaBlu
Last January my live-in boyfriend found himself in an unfortunate situation which he admits that he had partially caused. My mother happened to have called me two months after it happened. She loves my boyfriend (probably more than she does me) and she was in shock. After a few more comments to me I said to her "you know he could have done XYZ to prevent this". She then said to me in the most judging and snappish (is that a word?) tone possible: "You didn't say that to him did you?" I was livid. I wrapped up the conversation quickly and decided not to ever call her again.
) and she was in shock. After a few more comments to me I said to her "you know he could have done XYZ to prevent this". She then said to me in the most judging and snappish (is that a word?) tone possible: "You didn't say that to him did you?" I was livid. I wrapped up the conversation quickly and decided not to ever call her again.This is not an uncommon belief system. I know my AF's family of origin was very much like this. You don't spend money on women. You don't invest in women. They don't amount to anything. They are burdens - not blessings.
Originally Posted by StellaBlu
NINE months later she called me (last week) not to apologize for snapping at me but to wish me a happy birthday and to pretend that nothing out of the ordinary has happened.
It's terrible the kinds of things we can grow up to believe are normal. But what are you supposed to do about it? How are you supposed to know better? I believe that the isolating nature of dysfunctional families is what makes the negative impacts so strong on us. You aren't educated with healthy alternatives - you are just given the same incomplete lessons again and again with a sledgehammer.
FWIW I think you are doing really well in facing such a heavy family history.
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 958
Dothi, Thank you. I appreciate your gems of wisdom.
Re: abused sister. She probably didn't want to feel responsible for creating a family rift. How much do you want to bet she was hearing things like, "he didn't do anything to Stella - what happened is none of her business."
It never occurred to me that this is what might have been going on. But now that you mention this it makes sense.
How much you really want to bet that it doesn't bother your sister? How likely is it that your sister still believes that the family falling apart will be her fault for being the victim? Sexual abuse is a terrible thing.
You are right. The sexual abuse has really affected my sister greatly. She ran away from home at 15, lived on the streets, became a drug addict. She was MIA from ages 15 to 19. She has now been clean for over 23 years. I'm proud of her for that. I've often talked to her about getting into therapy. Initially she played the tough girl telling me that she had dealt with all her issues with my father etc.. But in the last few conversations I've had with her when I brought up therapy she got really choked up and said that she would go but she's scared (as anyone can imagine). I think she is afraid of the depths of the pain that she would have to confront/relive and the intensity of the anger. My sister has been through a lot. As difficult as it is to have a sisterly relationship with her I have so much compassion for her because I know what she's been through.
My sister and I were both sexually abused by a family member on my AF's side. I (Hero) took on the responsibility of parenting my AF, became a rock in the family, and "moved forward." I thought I was doing a good job. My sister OTOH struggled, and she heard that exact same line over and over again. When I got older and wanted counselling, it was "hush hush" and "I thought you had dealt with it". "Past is in the past, so why bring it up now?"
I'm sorry that this happened.
To be honest, Stella, it sounds like your mom grew up in an environment where men could do no wrong. That's why she didn't draw boundaries with your dad to protect your kids. That's why she can't even acknowledge that your boyfriend - man or not - is human too and will make mistakes. Your mom may have grown up with the belief system that men are inherently in the right, and women inherently in the wrong.
This is not an uncommon belief system. I know my AF's family of origin was very much like this. You don't spend money on women. You don't invest in women. They don't amount to anything. They are burdens - not blessings. Yes I think you are right about her. It's good for me to hear this reaffirmed by an outside source because I've always suspected this about her.
Because she believes this treatment of people is normal. That if she hounds you enough, eventually you'll accept the status quo and fall in line. She believes she fulfilled her role of mother by putting you in your place. So why should she feel bad about it? . You are so right about her.
It's terrible the kinds of things we can grow up to believe are normal. But what are you supposed to do about it? How are you supposed to know better? I believe that the isolating nature of dysfunctional families is what makes the negative impacts so strong on us. You aren't educated with healthy alternatives - you are just given the same incomplete lessons again and again with a sledgehammer. Dothi, when I read that last line I laughed. I just remember when I was a kid living at home. Every so often I would relate some messed up story about my family to someone at school or a casual family friend as a way to process it. Once they got beyond the shock of the story they would sometimes offer up some insight or 'words of wisdom' to me. Sometimes I would actually feel enlightened by what they said. And I would march home with hope that I finally had *the* tool that would enable me to deal with my parents...only to be hit over the head by parents with this proverbial sledgehammer over and over again. My parents clearly did not want to be enlightened with what I had learned.
FWIW I think you are doing really well in facing such a heavy family history.
Thank you for that. It's been a long and very difficult journey. I appreciate your help.
Originally Posted by dothi
Re: abused sister. She probably didn't want to feel responsible for creating a family rift. How much do you want to bet she was hearing things like, "he didn't do anything to Stella - what happened is none of her business."
Originally Posted by dothi
How much you really want to bet that it doesn't bother your sister? How likely is it that your sister still believes that the family falling apart will be her fault for being the victim? Sexual abuse is a terrible thing.
You are right. The sexual abuse has really affected my sister greatly. She ran away from home at 15, lived on the streets, became a drug addict. She was MIA from ages 15 to 19. She has now been clean for over 23 years. I'm proud of her for that. I've often talked to her about getting into therapy. Initially she played the tough girl telling me that she had dealt with all her issues with my father etc.. But in the last few conversations I've had with her when I brought up therapy she got really choked up and said that she would go but she's scared (as anyone can imagine). I think she is afraid of the depths of the pain that she would have to confront/relive and the intensity of the anger. My sister has been through a lot. As difficult as it is to have a sisterly relationship with her I have so much compassion for her because I know what she's been through.
Originally Posted by dothi
My sister and I were both sexually abused by a family member on my AF's side. I (Hero) took on the responsibility of parenting my AF, became a rock in the family, and "moved forward." I thought I was doing a good job. My sister OTOH struggled, and she heard that exact same line over and over again. When I got older and wanted counselling, it was "hush hush" and "I thought you had dealt with it". "Past is in the past, so why bring it up now?"
Originally Posted by dothi
To be honest, Stella, it sounds like your mom grew up in an environment where men could do no wrong. That's why she didn't draw boundaries with your dad to protect your kids. That's why she can't even acknowledge that your boyfriend - man or not - is human too and will make mistakes. Your mom may have grown up with the belief system that men are inherently in the right, and women inherently in the wrong.
This is not an uncommon belief system. I know my AF's family of origin was very much like this. You don't spend money on women. You don't invest in women. They don't amount to anything. They are burdens - not blessings.
Originally Posted by dothi
Because she believes this treatment of people is normal. That if she hounds you enough, eventually you'll accept the status quo and fall in line. She believes she fulfilled her role of mother by putting you in your place. So why should she feel bad about it? .
Originally Posted by dothi
It's terrible the kinds of things we can grow up to believe are normal. But what are you supposed to do about it? How are you supposed to know better? I believe that the isolating nature of dysfunctional families is what makes the negative impacts so strong on us. You aren't educated with healthy alternatives - you are just given the same incomplete lessons again and again with a sledgehammer.
Originally Posted by dothi
FWIW I think you are doing really well in facing such a heavy family history.
Thank you for that. It's been a long and very difficult journey. I appreciate your help.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Back East
Posts: 704
Originally Posted by dothi
[COLOR="DarkRed"]There's this poorly conceived idea out there that we should value our family ties above all else...
)I have made it clear that my wife (who I chose) comes first, ahead of my family (with whom I associate because I had the misfortune to be born into it). She's in recovery, they're not (for the most part), so she gets my loyalty.
The conventional thinking has it backwards -- you have every right to have your "family of choice" come first, with the "family that you happen to share some DNA with" a distant second. If they don't get it, they don't get it -- that's their problem....
T
AKA 'grewupinabarn'
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 471
Originally Posted by dothi
"Past is in the past, so why bring it up now?"
I was a lost child also, occasionally allowed out of the corner to be a hero. I attended my AF's alma mater, and boy was he thrilled. And then I nearly flunked out.
FWIW, I have learned that you can put difficult experiences behind you when you have learned the lesson of that experience. If you burn your hand on a stove do you just 'put it behind you'? You learn to not touch the #@%& stove! Dysfunctional rules say I must forget the lesson as well as the experience itself. Sorry, there is no such 'delete' button on the human brain. And some of those lessons show us how to make proper boundaries, work on our own sanity, and to not enable insanity of others.
Originally Posted by dothi
"I thought you dealt with it"
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But in the last few conversations I've had with her when I brought up therapy she got really choked up and said that she would go but she's scared (as anyone can imagine). I think she is afraid of the depths of the pain that she would have to confront/relive and the intensity of the anger. My sister has been through a lot. As difficult as it is to have a sisterly relationship with her I have so much compassion for her because I know what she's been through.
1. The more you tell your sister that therapy works and is a viable alternative, the more "normalized" therapy will seem, and the (slightly) less scary.
2. Therapy for a sexual assault victim (especially when the assualt happened as a child) is much more frightening than if it was "just" plain old abuse. Sexual assault victims frequently have what are called instrusive images - in other words, the relive the scenario(s) and they can't get the pictures out of their mind. So going into therapy is asking to have their lives taken over by this video that won't leave, that won't let them sleep, that won't let them think.
I am one of those victims. To this day, I can not look at a picture of Jimi Hendrix without intrusive images having nothing to do with the musician. It's been nearly 40 years, and my assault was a single incident.
You can tell your sister that if she seeks a competent therapist, they have tools to make those images go away. There are ways one can manipulate memories such that they carry no emotional weight anymore (by "one" I mean the victim - the therapist just tells the victim how to do it - so it's optional. I will say that it's worked incredibly well for me)
3. Our psyche's will not allow us to experience more pain than we can cope with. Look at this board - look at all the weird mental gyrations we all went through to protect ourselves from pain that would have crushed us. But our minds protected us. If your sister was to enter therapy, first, the therapist wouldn't move forward any faster than your sister was ready for - and if, by accident, it did happen, her psyche would protect her. She went through hell and survived it - she can survive therapy, which is much less horrible, and has the added nicety of making her happier in the end than dragging the weight of this around with her has done.
4. She will have to deal with the anger - but I think "confront" may be a bit of a strong word. Confronting sounds antagonistic. It isn't so much confronting as it is accepting - accepting that something horrible happened, accepting that she had no control over it, accepting that she didn't want it to happen, but it did anyway.
I do hope your sister seeks therapy, and I hope you do as well. I think everyone could use a little help in this chaotic world of ours (not just ACoAs - *everyone*).
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Originally Posted by StellaBlu
To be clear: My father is a closed chapter in my life. He does not bring me anxiety and I have no emotion when I rarely think about him. I don't want to see my father suffer at all. I just don't want to be subjected to him. I don't want him to be a part of my life and I don't want to be a part of his life.
My mother and sisters are another story. They are a whole other source of frustration and confusion for me. And it is with them that I'm considering cutting off ties (again) with as well and it is not as straightforward as it was with my father.
To describe my mother I could pick any number of things that Amanda has already written about her own mother.
I told her that if she couldn't refrain from bringing up the issue that she should not call me. So she stopped calling me. And as a result my sisters stopped calling me (I lived and still live in another state from them). My younger sister will refer to that time period as when "sb took a break from the family". I guess that was sort of true but then it allows them to not take responsibility for that fact that they didn't call me either. Were they taking a break from me as well??
Moving on. A few years later, I did 'reconcile' with them. But it was rough. I remember the first time I saw my mother after many years. She came to visit me in California. I remember driving my car down beautiful Big Sur having a raging argument with my mother. I asked her why she let my father abuse my older sister in the way that he did. Her response: "Well if it doesn't bother M(mysister) then why should it bother you?". This was when they all still had a relationship with him.
Is it just me or is that incredibly dysfunctional?
Is it just me or is that incredibly dysfunctional?
Anyways, thx for sharing sb. Keep us updated and I am most likely to do likewise. Hang in there and one thing I always try to remember in relationships is: "do they have my best interests at heart?" b/c if not--they aren't worth my time and the relationship will only drag me down and make me regress-not progress.
:praying
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Originally Posted by GingerM
Couple of quick thoughts about this bit (sorry, I think Dothi covered most of the other points):
1. The more you tell your sister that therapy works and is a viable alternative, the more "normalized" therapy will seem, and the (slightly) less scary.
2. Therapy for a sexual assault victim (especially when the assualt happened as a child) is much more frightening than if it was "just" plain old abuse. Sexual assault victims frequently have what are called instrusive images - in other words, the relive the scenario(s) and they can't get the pictures out of their mind. So going into therapy is asking to have their lives taken over by this video that won't leave, that won't let them sleep, that won't let them think.
I am one of those victims. To this day, I can not look at a picture of Jimi Hendrix without intrusive images having nothing to do with the musician. It's been nearly 40 years, and my assault was a single incident.
You can tell your sister that if she seeks a competent therapist, they have tools to make those images go away. There are ways one can manipulate memories such that they carry no emotional weight anymore (by "one" I mean the victim - the therapist just tells the victim how to do it - so it's optional. I will say that it's worked incredibly well for me)
3. Our psyche's will not allow us to experience more pain than we can cope with. Look at this board - look at all the weird mental gyrations we all went through to protect ourselves from pain that would have crushed us. But our minds protected us. If your sister was to enter therapy, first, the therapist wouldn't move forward any faster than your sister was ready for - and if, by accident, it did happen, her psyche would protect her. She went through hell and survived it - she can survive therapy, which is much less horrible, and has the added nicety of making her happier in the end than dragging the weight of this around with her has done.
4. She will have to deal with the anger - but I think "confront" may be a bit of a strong word. Confronting sounds antagonistic. It isn't so much confronting as it is accepting - accepting that something horrible happened, accepting that she had no control over it, accepting that she didn't want it to happen, but it did anyway.
I do hope your sister seeks therapy, and I hope you do as well. I think everyone could use a little help in this chaotic world of ours (not just ACoAs - *everyone*).
1. The more you tell your sister that therapy works and is a viable alternative, the more "normalized" therapy will seem, and the (slightly) less scary.
2. Therapy for a sexual assault victim (especially when the assualt happened as a child) is much more frightening than if it was "just" plain old abuse. Sexual assault victims frequently have what are called instrusive images - in other words, the relive the scenario(s) and they can't get the pictures out of their mind. So going into therapy is asking to have their lives taken over by this video that won't leave, that won't let them sleep, that won't let them think.
I am one of those victims. To this day, I can not look at a picture of Jimi Hendrix without intrusive images having nothing to do with the musician. It's been nearly 40 years, and my assault was a single incident.
You can tell your sister that if she seeks a competent therapist, they have tools to make those images go away. There are ways one can manipulate memories such that they carry no emotional weight anymore (by "one" I mean the victim - the therapist just tells the victim how to do it - so it's optional. I will say that it's worked incredibly well for me)
3. Our psyche's will not allow us to experience more pain than we can cope with. Look at this board - look at all the weird mental gyrations we all went through to protect ourselves from pain that would have crushed us. But our minds protected us. If your sister was to enter therapy, first, the therapist wouldn't move forward any faster than your sister was ready for - and if, by accident, it did happen, her psyche would protect her. She went through hell and survived it - she can survive therapy, which is much less horrible, and has the added nicety of making her happier in the end than dragging the weight of this around with her has done.
4. She will have to deal with the anger - but I think "confront" may be a bit of a strong word. Confronting sounds antagonistic. It isn't so much confronting as it is accepting - accepting that something horrible happened, accepting that she had no control over it, accepting that she didn't want it to happen, but it did anyway.
I do hope your sister seeks therapy, and I hope you do as well. I think everyone could use a little help in this chaotic world of ours (not just ACoAs - *everyone*).
Personally, oftentimes I think therapy is work. It does make you feel better but I feel like I do have to work at it. Therapy forced me to take a hard and honest look at my life - at the things my parents had done as well as the person who I had become as a result. That wasn't always easy - especially if you are honest with yourself. In the end it was definitely worth it.
Perhaps my use of the word 'confront' was too strong. I do think though that I felt deep sadness and pain as a result of therapy. But again, definitely worth it.
Originally Posted by GingerM
She went through hell and survived it - she can survive therapy, which is much less horrible, and has the added nicety of making her happier in the end than dragging the weight of this around with her has done.
Thank you again for your insights.
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Originally Posted by StellaBlu
Therapy forced me to take a hard and honest look at my life - at the things my parents had done as well as the person who I had become as a result. That wasn't always easy - especially if you are honest with yourself. In the end it was definitely worth it.
I just want to clarify - I think I've worked hard in therapy and I'm proud of the person that I've become. I didn't want people to think that I'm a mean person. I don't think of myself as a mean person. I guess what I was trying to say is this: Growing up, my parents mostly treated me with a lack of empathy, patience, kindness, compassion and respect. As a result, since rarely experiencing these things, I often adapted a way of interacting with others which lacked empathy, patience, kindness, compassion and respect. Therapy has helped me. Though not perfect, nowadays I try to live my life with a higher consciousness and treat others in the same way that I would want to be treated: with empathy, patience, kindness, compassion and respect. And sometimes I feel as though I'm more successful at this than others who were raised with less dysfunctional parents.Though I have to admit, I still struggle sometimes with a sensitivity towards feeling like something I have done or have said has offended someone. Has anyone else ever felt like this? I think of it as the uglier side of being an ACOA.
Thank you,
sb
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Originally Posted by StellaBlu
Though I have to admit, I still struggle sometimes with a sensitivity towards feeling like something I have done or have said has offended someone. Has anyone else ever felt like this? I think of it as the uglier side of being an ACOA.
In answer to your question, yes yes yes. I'm a "people pleaser" from way back. I was kind of the Hero/Scapegoat (it depended ... my brother was sort of the Lost Child/Hero ... we doubled up on the roles, haha), but MOST of all I was the caretaker. My job was to take care of my codependent mother because my AF had made her sooo miserable and ruined her life. And you know, when you're a kid, you aren't old enough to think, "And you've contributed to this how?"
Anyhoo, I'm still trying to break out of that mold. I get into the car after leaving a social engagement and I immediately second guess most everything I've done and said throughout the evening. I don't like for anybody to be mad at me, and I don't like anybody not to like me ... EVEN (I love this part) WHEN I DON'T LIKE THEM.
That's what you get, I suppose when you're taught your feelings don't matter and your job is to please others and make them happy. I'm sure we people pleasers are pretty nice to be around most of the time but it sort of ends up making an internal mess, I've found. I'm working on this through therapy and have made some progress, but unlearning such behavior is a slow process.
I'm sorry to hear about the things that have happened to you but it sounds to me like you are definitely on the right path. Good for you for cutting off contact with your father. As far as your mother and sister, you have to do what's best for you, whether it's no contact, limited contact, whatever.
Remember to be gentle with yourself and take care of yourself. As my husband likes to tell me (among other things I'm the world's most impatient person), "It's a marathon, not a sprint."
Love
tcom
:ghug3
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