Butterfly14

Hi everyone,

I am new to SR but not to recovery or ACOA.

A little background: I am 42, an only child and My mother is the current alcoholic in my family. My parents divorced when i was 7 both were alcoholic back then but my dad put the drink down 24 years ago and never touched another. He passed away in Nov. 2008 from a heartattack. I myself have no alcohol or drug addictions but I am addicted to alcholics and addicts,,go figure!!! I can't seem to stop being attracted to them no matter how much work I do on myself or therapy,,etc...doesn't seem to matter...i walk into a room there are 20 men, one is an addict or alcoholic and i seem to pick him out of the crowd. uugh!!!

Anyway,,,just coming out of a relationship with an addict that I ended because he wouldn't quit using cocaine and drinking. We have had NC for about 3 weeks and my life is finally settling down from all of that.

However, My mother is driving my crazy as her alcholism has progressed and she keeps bugging me to come down to Florida to see her but i am hesitant as i know the drunken disaster that will ensue...it has been 5 years since we have seen each other and a lifetime of her drinking and making life hell. She is a nasty drunk and unbearable to be around when she is in that place. I bought the ticket to go a few weeks ago even though i was hesitant i did it anyway. Last night she called drunk and started in about all past BS and I hung up the phone and said why am i going there??? it will just be more drama and more problems....then i reliazed why,,,,it's the darn guilt. I always feel so guilty like i should.....i should do this and that ....now it's i should go and see her because what if something happens to her and i haven't seen her in 5 years how will i live with myself,,blah, blah, blah the tapes play in my head.

At this point i just am tired of it all and at my wits end, I am thinking i should cancel the flight and just keep a phone relationship with her at least untill i feel strong enough to handle going there and dealing with it,,,,any advice or suggestions woudl be very much appreciated.


Thanks for reading.

takincareome

Hi there Butterfly.

I can't tell you what to do, but from your post it looks like you know what you need to do. Listen to what you are trying to tell yourself. You know you aren't ready and you seem to know that going right now would be a mistake.

You are the only one who can really answer the question, though. Don't let her guilt you into it or make you feel obligated. You aren't obligated to anyone but yourself. If you need to postpone the trip, then do it. Use this time, after you've recently ended your relationship, to work on you.

I feel your pain very much. We are all ACOAs in here too so we know exactly how it is.

Love and hugs to you. I wish you strength and wisdom to make your decision.

dothi

I think this is the best advice, right there

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterfly14

it's the darn guilt. I always feel so guilty like i should.....i should do this and that

Ask yourself, if you felt no guilt, what would this problem look like? What would your solution look like?

Have you heard of the term "toxic guilt"? I'm going to pm an article on toxic guilt to you. You may find it helpful.

Butterfly14

Hi Dothi, Thank You so much for the article on guilt. It was very helpful!!!!!

So I spoke with my mom last night and told her i thought i should hold off coming down for awile. She suggested coming up here to visit and staying in a hotel room. I think she would rather stay in a hotel becuase she knows i won't let her drink in my house. I siad let's think about it and talk about that over the weekend. I am a bit leery for her to by herself in a hotel room becuase she does drink and smoke and should she fall asleep with a ciggarette lit or something worries me. Now she lives with a friend in Florida who keeps a watch on her but alone in a hotel doesn't seem good to me so i suggested maybe she bring a friend and we'll talk more about it over the weekend. It would have been nice for me to get away and go down to florida but i just can't trust she won't get drunk and carry on etc. and make my trip there a nightmare as has happened so many times in the past. Thank You so much to all of you for your advice and support!!!!

I know i will have to see her at some point just trying to decide what is the safest option for me.

Wascally Wabbit

Just curious if you have told her the reason you don't want to come?

Butterfly14

She thinks I am not coming now becuase i dont' want to stay in a hotel room by myself....I told her i would rather come when i have a friend to travel with.....this is part true but the real reason is becuase if she starts drinking and gets nasty and crazy as per her usual i am afraid what will happen and i will be stuck by myself in a hotel room in a place i am not familar with....or worse out with her at a restaurant not knowing where the heck i am. She has gotten thrown out of many places for drinking and getting nasty with the help and waiters etc. and it is embarassing. She of course says this won't happen but she always says this and she always drinks, gets nasty and ruins my trip. The flight is paid for so i will lose that money but it isn't a lot of money compared to my sanity. If i go I can't stay with her because there is no room to stay at her house and besides i wouldn't want to stay with her anyway. Been there done that before and it was a nightmare.

We didn't talk for 5 years as I walked away from her with the drinking it just got too crazy and i couldnt' take it anymore...i changed my number and refused to talk with her....just recently we started to talk again since my dad passed away about 6 months ago,,,we get along well now on the phone and i am afraid if i go there we will fight and not talk again for God knows how long again.

Do you think i should tell her the real reason? I know what she will say though if i tell her she will say i won't do that this time I promise,,blah, blah blah,,,but i can't believe her becuase she has made these promises in the past and then doesn't keep them.

tromboneliness

This sounds like a job for When I say No, I Feel Guilty, by Manuel J. Smith. It's my favorite "non-program program book," and is all about assertiveness training -- and, more generally, about being direct with people and learning to say no.

What I'm hearing is, there has to be some kind of reason why you "can't" go and see Mom at this point -- the real reason is something else, but there has to be an acceptable reason on the surface, e.g., can't go because of blah-blah, X, Y, and Z. The real reason is "No, I'm not coming because it would be unhealthy for both of us," but that is a discussion that's hard to have (as I know very well from my Dad's attempts to get me to move back into the house I grew up in -- the answer is No, but I have a hard time saying that directly).

What Smith does, in his book, is explain how to say No without going through covoluted explanations of why it's not possible to do... whatever it is that the other person wants you to do. He actually gives you practice exercises that you can work on (which work -- I've tried them).

The best part is that you feel much better afterwards, when you've just given someone a direct, honest, "No," or have just come out and asked for what you want.

The book has been out for over 30 years and sold zillions of copies -- you can find a copy in any used bookstore for about $1.50.

T

Butterfly14

I will get that book! You are right on with your observations...If we have that conversation she will say that I am being ridiculous and making too much out of her drinking,,on and on it will go..she minimizes her drinking and how ugly she gets. Or she will promise she won't drink too much which i have heard a zillion times. I agree about asking her directly for what i want which is a nice peaceful visit but it won't happen it never has in my 42 years so i dont' believe it will now since she hasn't changed her drinking...when nothing changes nothing changes...i would be foolish to believe what she says or promises.

Sounds horrible but it is easier to make up excuses then to say the real reason....I would like to say dont' drink when i am there that is what i would really like but she won't agree to it...so i am caught between a rock and a hard place. If i go she will drink and most likely carry on and if i dont' go i will feel guilty for not seeing her in 5 years now. The only good thing is now we do talk on the phone and have a connection if i go down and it ends up bad who knows if we will talk again for awile.

It is so hard to make these decisions!!!

Just went online and found a copy...thank you for this suggestion!!!

dothi

I hear where you're coming from, Butterfly14. I find it impossible to maintain a healthy boundary with my AF. It's not enough if I'm willing to come and visit. It's not enough if I'm willing to come for a day. It's not enough if I come home and stay for the entire long weekend. It's as though if you came home - even for a few minutes - things would magically be so much better.

Whatever you decide, remember: it will not be better. Even if it seems better for her, the bigger question is will it be better for you? She doesn't need to understand why if your answer is no.

It's like they want us to come home and be close enough, long enough, to replay some broken-record script for them. I think it also helps their own denial - that they really can't be "that bad" of parents. "See? My kid is home to see [and put up with] me." In part, perhaps they believe that's what love means because that's what they were taught growing up.

re: excuses. I think it's easier to lie than offer the truth because when they argue against us, we have to face our own denial of how sick they really are. (sick = unable to relate to us as a sane, rational person; unable to avoid projecting their own feelings/needs/expectations). When we confront them with the truth and they deny, we are confronted with the truth that we will probably never get what we need from them as parents.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't worry so much about telling her the real reason as I would about practicing strong boundaries.

You: "So I decided not to come home. [insert token excuse]"
Her: "Why not? Your ticket is already paid for. You said you would come. I was looking forward... etc"
You: "Yes, I hear what you're saying. I'm sorry you feel what why but I've made up my mind."
Her: "Why [attack token excuse]"
You: "I told you. I've made up my mind and I'm not willing to discuss it. If you can't respect that, I will hang up."
Her: "No, I want to know why [token excuse] is more important than visiting me."
You: "Okay mom, I'll talk to you at a better time." *Hang up*

That's not a perfect script (I imagine T's book will do a much better job outlining how exactly to practice it). But I hope it communicates the general idea. Draw your boundary and avoid explaining "why". The "why" is a distraction to keep you busy rationalizing your own feelings instead of moving forward past your decision.

Butterfly14

Hi Dothi, Wow, what you say is right on.....they want you to come home because it proves they are not that bad a parent!!!! I know my mom looks at it that way too. If my daughter comes to see me i can't be all that bad....the thing is your so right it won't be any different this time than it ever was in the past. My friends all think i was nuts to go down there for 4 days by myself with noone coming with me. Not sure who i would take with me anyway,,as she would just drink, and embarass me in front of them.

I told her on the phone today that i thought it was best to wait till i have somone to travel down with...she seemed okay with that as she said she hates to go anywhere alone so she can understand. She said well bring a friend and come around the holidays....I was like Oh no,,not the holidays they are the worst...a drinking fest....not the holidays!!!! I didn't say that of course....i said oh we'll see how it goes mom and talk about it in a few months. She said well maybe I will come up there with a friend and stay in a hotel i said okay let's see what happens. THe rest of the conversation went well and that was it. Guaranteeed she will get drunk and I will hear about this and how i didn't come down but so be it. I think for now it is the best decision alhtough i still feel guilt like i should go down next week I am just going to feel the guilt and stick with my decision.

I know if I go down there to see her what will happen is she will drink and be fine for about a day or maybe 2 max then she will start getting mean and bringing up all past things that she didn't like that i did etc. etc. then an arguement would ensue .....i would go back to my hotel room and say what the hell did i come here for it's the same old crap...kicking myself for doing it yet again!!! It is sad that I can't just go down and have a nice few days with my mom but i know as long as she is drinking it just won't happen...i have to keep reminding myself of that...nothing will be any different.

Thank you all so much for your support and advice it really helped me a lot. Strong boundaries is something I need to work on....Hopefully the book I ordered will help me with that.

tromboneliness

Booya! That's it! In my Dad's case, nothing short of putting my entire life on hold and moving back, permanently, into the house I grew up in, would do the trick for him. Give him an inch, or a foot, or a yard, or 100 yards, or 1000 yards, and that's not enough -- he has to have the whole mile.

Your made-up discussion, which I didn't quote because I'm not sure how to do multiple quotes, with replies, in the same message, is pretty similar to the exercises Smith gives in When I Say No, I Feel Guilty. He gives examples of "assertive" (healthy) and "manipulative" (unhealthy) versions of the same discussion. That way, you can steer the conversation to the "assertive" mode and just be direct, instead of beating around the bush and letting the other person manipulate you.

It's hard, though -- I mean, I make it sound like I've got this thing figured out, but no way is that true! I spent this afternoon with my Dad, and were it not for the fact that I was able to get us into the living room and turn the TV on, so we could watch a golf tournament all afternoon (providing some measure of distraction from his manipulative woe-is-me, why-won't-you-come-back riff), I'd be about ready for the nuthouse by now. My Dad still insists on being a Superior Form of Life -- he goes over and over old memories, and keeps telling it in such a way that his life, his trips with my late Mom, his accomplishments, his friends, and his memories, are all so vastly superior to mine, which are utterly trivial by comparison. I always thought you were supposed to boost your kids, not cut them down -- but he never got the memo....

T

dothi

Even if she claims things are different, look at the actions - not the words. My AF used to do this ("how can you complain? I'm not drinking am I?"). It throws you for a loop, until you find somewhere in SR the handy idea: "even though you've stopped drinking, your behavior is still the same."

Butterfly, after you've read the book and pulled out the most relevant bits, if you have a good friend that you feel pretty comfortable with, ask if they'll rehearse some of those scripts with you. It will help to actually practice saying the words before you have to use them; it will help you feel more natural saying them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tromboneliness

My Dad still insists on being a Superior Form of Life -- he goes over and over old memories, and keeps telling it in such a way that his life, his trips with my late Mom, his accomplishments, his friends, and his memories, are all so vastly superior to mine, which are utterly trivial by comparison.

Same with mine. He is the only one who ever experiences anything. A few years ago he had to get surgery for lung cancer, and claimed that he didn't want anyone to come with him for the surgery (martyrdom alert). I argued that he will be in ICU for a few days - how will we even know if he survived the operation if there's no one there to keep track and communicate updates? Sister and I took a week off of work to drive down and stay with him.

This year codie mom was telling me on the phone about how he sat around moping that his daughters don't call him on his birthday (this from the man who never calls us on our birthday, and who has traditionally celebrated by sitting long enough to watch us blow the candles out, and then return to drinking before the presents are on the table; was even SO drunk of my sister's birthday one year that he asked who she was when we picked him up from the bar). He said, "I don't think the girls have much caring for me." My mom replied, "What about when you went for your surgery? Wasn't that caring?" *drumroll*

AF: "I don't think they really meant it."

...

And then he plays dumb when I try to tell him that he doesn't listen to what I have to say. This really helped me realize just how oblivious an alcoholic can be of other people - period.

If I talked to him today, the first thing he would ask is when am I coming home? Sorry, but no contact = no nuthouse for me.

Butterfly14

Dothi,,,I love that,,No Contact means No Nuthouse for me, LOL!!! Ain't it the truth.


The actions definately are no different...she drinks like a fish. Called me last night to "chat" she was drunk and we talked for awile, no arguements which is good and that was it. It is sad that you just can't have a normal relationship I really do wish it were different as she is all the family i have left at this point. I woke up this morning and just felt sad for all that could be but never is.

When I get the book i will surely practice those exercises...good advice!!