"Sober" on Ambien?
Jeff070204
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 39
"Sober" on Ambien?
Greetings,
I have a friend in recovery whom I have sponsored on and off for about a year and a half. He has struggled mightily with addictions to pretty much any prescription narcotic you can name (Vicodin, OxyContin, other opiates, etc.). He has also abused benzodiazepines and some street drugs. He told me recently that he has been sober for ten months. I believed him, in part because he just started a job for a company which includes a drug screening as part of its hiring process.
Last night on the phone I had to ask him repeatedly about the meaning of a bizarre e-mail he had sent me. After some prodding, he said "OOOOHHH...f*!@in' Ambien!"
My feeling is that you can't be taking Ambien and claim to be "sober", particularly if you've been a prescription drug abuser. I've heard that Ambien has mood-altering effects apart from sleep induction, and from the conversation with my friend this includes state-dependent memory, an effect often produced by alcohol and other drugs of abuse.
I'm pretty sure that the AA orthodoxy would say that my friend needs to turn in his chips and change his sobriety date, if he even had one in the first place. I'm posting this to see what people think.
I have a friend in recovery whom I have sponsored on and off for about a year and a half. He has struggled mightily with addictions to pretty much any prescription narcotic you can name (Vicodin, OxyContin, other opiates, etc.). He has also abused benzodiazepines and some street drugs. He told me recently that he has been sober for ten months. I believed him, in part because he just started a job for a company which includes a drug screening as part of its hiring process.
Last night on the phone I had to ask him repeatedly about the meaning of a bizarre e-mail he had sent me. After some prodding, he said "OOOOHHH...f*!@in' Ambien!"
My feeling is that you can't be taking Ambien and claim to be "sober", particularly if you've been a prescription drug abuser. I've heard that Ambien has mood-altering effects apart from sleep induction, and from the conversation with my friend this includes state-dependent memory, an effect often produced by alcohol and other drugs of abuse.
I'm pretty sure that the AA orthodoxy would say that my friend needs to turn in his chips and change his sobriety date, if he even had one in the first place. I'm posting this to see what people think.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
I was waiting for someone else to respond.
I don't think that is a fair assessment of Ambien. Altho' if he is having these side effects I would recommend asking the Dr about Desyrel which does not have the side effects most of the new sleep scrips have.
But, really, Ambien has no relationship to benzos or opiates at all.
Many recovering people have psychotropic prescriptions that are necessary to their well being.
I don't think that is a fair assessment of Ambien. Altho' if he is having these side effects I would recommend asking the Dr about Desyrel which does not have the side effects most of the new sleep scrips have.
But, really, Ambien has no relationship to benzos or opiates at all.
Many recovering people have psychotropic prescriptions that are necessary to their well being.
Jeff070204
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 39
I couldn't sleep for weeks after I stopped drinking. I suppose if a pill were made available to me to put me to sleep at the time, I would have taken it. But I don't know if I would have turned around and told people I was sober, either.
I don't know how many times I've heard the expression "live life on life's terms" repeated. Perhaps I don't understand this expression correctly. I don't think my friend, by taking a sedative, prescription or otherwise, is living life on life's terms.
I don't know how many times I've heard the expression "live life on life's terms" repeated. Perhaps I don't understand this expression correctly. I don't think my friend, by taking a sedative, prescription or otherwise, is living life on life's terms.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 2,060
this is interesting.
I am sober in AA, and have recently been prescribed Ativan and Ambien.
I tried 1 Ambien, and hated the drowsy hungover feeling next day. It reminded me so much of morning after drinking that I decided the potential trade-off in perhaps sleeping better was not worth the risk of feeling so bad that my spiritual connection was hazy at best...
I used the experiment to decide more determinedly that what I really need is to eat better, get more exerccise, and get to bed earlier.
FOR ME.
But, no. I wouldn't trade in my chips or start my sobriety counter all over even if I felt that these prescribed meds were worth taking regularly. Sobriety, to me, is not drinking alcohol and not abusing or being dependent on drug. (in addition to growing along spiritual lines..)
I am sober in AA, and have recently been prescribed Ativan and Ambien.
I tried 1 Ambien, and hated the drowsy hungover feeling next day. It reminded me so much of morning after drinking that I decided the potential trade-off in perhaps sleeping better was not worth the risk of feeling so bad that my spiritual connection was hazy at best...
I used the experiment to decide more determinedly that what I really need is to eat better, get more exerccise, and get to bed earlier.
FOR ME.
But, no. I wouldn't trade in my chips or start my sobriety counter all over even if I felt that these prescribed meds were worth taking regularly. Sobriety, to me, is not drinking alcohol and not abusing or being dependent on drug. (in addition to growing along spiritual lines..)
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
My opinion is that you CAN be sober while taking a prescribed drug as need/as prescribed.
I take a benzo for anxiety and I take a sleeping pill. For sleeping: Lunesta now and Ambien in the past. For anxiety: Klonopin. I DO NOT abuse either of my prescription. I take them as prescribed. I KNOW I'm sober.
Like Live said, Ambien has no relationship to benzos or opiates at all.
Some people, with or without an addiction(drinking or otherwise), have something called insomnia. That's what drugs like Lunesta and Ambien are for.
Just my 2 cents.
I take a benzo for anxiety and I take a sleeping pill. For sleeping: Lunesta now and Ambien in the past. For anxiety: Klonopin. I DO NOT abuse either of my prescription. I take them as prescribed. I KNOW I'm sober.
Like Live said, Ambien has no relationship to benzos or opiates at all.
Some people, with or without an addiction(drinking or otherwise), have something called insomnia. That's what drugs like Lunesta and Ambien are for.
Just my 2 cents.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
You said you couldn't sleep for weeks. This man has 10 months. One of the assessments made when one sees a Dr especially a psychiatrist is sleep. It is necessary to well-being. I would also think the continued lack of sleep would be more likely to contribute to a relapse than a medically supervised treatment.
Who are we to outguess his Dr?
Who are we to outguess his Dr?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
No ones ever died from lack of sleep.
Up until 4-5 months sober, I had terrible insomnia. I just toughed it out. Read, posted, had a high sugar snack for the blood sugar drop after.......Most nights I still only get about 6 hours sleep.
However, if it's prescribed, and used as directed, I don't count it as not being sober.
Up until 4-5 months sober, I had terrible insomnia. I just toughed it out. Read, posted, had a high sugar snack for the blood sugar drop after.......Most nights I still only get about 6 hours sleep.
However, if it's prescribed, and used as directed, I don't count it as not being sober.
Jeff070204
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 39
He's taking it to get high
I talked with my friend again Monday night after a meeting. He told me again about how Ambien affects him, about mood changes and the hypnotic state and the memory loss and/or state-dependent memory. He said he takes it "and then [doesn't] go to bed", instead stays up and among other things, e-mails people (including me).
If one takes a sleep medication and doesn't go to bed, but instead stays up to experience the sedative and hyphotic effects of the mediaction, then the medication is NOT being taken for its intended purpose. It's being abused.
My feeling, though, is that I can't change his thinking or his behavior at this point. He thinks he's found a loophole. He thinks he's "beaten the system". He's going to have to learn the hard way, the way I did.
If one takes a sleep medication and doesn't go to bed, but instead stays up to experience the sedative and hyphotic effects of the mediaction, then the medication is NOT being taken for its intended purpose. It's being abused.
My feeling, though, is that I can't change his thinking or his behavior at this point. He thinks he's found a loophole. He thinks he's "beaten the system". He's going to have to learn the hard way, the way I did.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,391
People abuse all sorts of medication, including Benedryl.
I think you answered your own question. Was he honest with the Dr who perscribed the medication. That would be a real eye opener to me.
IMHO abusing drugs puts you back to day one. I take an antidepressant can Trazadone occasionally for sleep, but I am very wary. I guard my sobriety very closely.
I hope your sponsee can see what is going on.
I think you answered your own question. Was he honest with the Dr who perscribed the medication. That would be a real eye opener to me.
IMHO abusing drugs puts you back to day one. I take an antidepressant can Trazadone occasionally for sleep, but I am very wary. I guard my sobriety very closely.
I hope your sponsee can see what is going on.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
Jeff -= in the context you've just dcescribed, it doesn't sound 'clean and sober'.
I'm going into nine months, and after eight of not being able to sleep, the doc prescribed ambien.
ewwww.
It's for me like Miss Commun. said, I hated the groggy, hungover feeling and haven't taken it since.
So we tried antidepress.
they're working great. No buzz, no stupor, no 'need' ...
just something in the morning when I get up.
And - I'm sleeping.
For the first time since LAST summer.
I'm going into nine months, and after eight of not being able to sleep, the doc prescribed ambien.
ewwww.
It's for me like Miss Commun. said, I hated the groggy, hungover feeling and haven't taken it since.
So we tried antidepress.
they're working great. No buzz, no stupor, no 'need' ...
just something in the morning when I get up.
And - I'm sleeping.
For the first time since LAST summer.
soberinnyc
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 32
My Ambien Experience
I was hit by massive insomnia in early sobriety that lasted four years. It turned out to be a side effect of an anti-depressant. My psychopharmacologist put me on Ambien and I slept beautifully for seven years. Ambien isn't a narcotic, but of course it can be habit forming. Not once did I ever take more than the prescribed dosage (I was a pure alcoholic when active, never pills).
The Ambien wore off, however, and there was nothing to replace it with. Even though it stopped working I still had to go through withdrawl (in this case, insomnia for months). My doctor then suggested antihistimes as a good sleeping drug for an alcoholic. Today I have no sleep problem.
While on Ambien I learned to ask friends never to call me past 10:30. I wouldn't remember the conversation!
For me personally, self-medicating is a slip. My meds were prescribed by a physician very knowledgeable about alcoholics. I was upfront with my sponsor every moment.
The Ambien wore off, however, and there was nothing to replace it with. Even though it stopped working I still had to go through withdrawl (in this case, insomnia for months). My doctor then suggested antihistimes as a good sleeping drug for an alcoholic. Today I have no sleep problem.
While on Ambien I learned to ask friends never to call me past 10:30. I wouldn't remember the conversation!
For me personally, self-medicating is a slip. My meds were prescribed by a physician very knowledgeable about alcoholics. I was upfront with my sponsor every moment.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
When I was prescribed Ambien, I took them for about 3 nights and then threw the rest away....such horrible nightmares.
I am now clear with my p-doc that I will not take any hypnotics/sedatives for sleep (tho' I am prescribed other meds that might be a problem for some people for my illnesses)
I usually don't take anything nowfor sleep maybe antihistamine...even tho' I have a scrip for Rezorem, which she tell me is very natural and regulates melatonin, I haven't filled the scrip.
Sorry, I had just never heard of anyone taking Ambien for a buzz before!
I am now clear with my p-doc that I will not take any hypnotics/sedatives for sleep (tho' I am prescribed other meds that might be a problem for some people for my illnesses)
I usually don't take anything nowfor sleep maybe antihistamine...even tho' I have a scrip for Rezorem, which she tell me is very natural and regulates melatonin, I haven't filled the scrip.
Sorry, I had just never heard of anyone taking Ambien for a buzz before!
dum vita est spes est
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: vita secundum nex
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by soberinnyc 
Ambien isn't a narcotic, but of course it can be habit forming.
Ambien IS most definitely a narcotic, in fact, it's a derivative of the benzo. family of drugs, which is why it's a class four narcotic.
Although, I've never tried crack, coke, heroin, or meth - I imagine my love affair to Ambien was just as deadly.
I wrecked two cars, had sex with multiple partners, called people at all hours of the night, put a hole in the wall of my house with my kneecap, destroyed my kitchen with food, and the list goes on...all with zero memory of these tragedies.
If there was ever a drug that allows you to "check out" from reality this one is it! I would say anyone taking Ambien (a narcotic) is most definitely NOT SOBER anymore. It does make you high and it does make you escape reality. I wouldn't give Ambien to my worst enemy.
PR
dum vita est spes est
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: vita secundum nex
Posts: 287
The following message is from LostWithoutHer, whose story can be found in the insomnia forums. God bless her daughter and the family...
"lilac,
I posted this in a differnet thread & then I saw your posting. I wanted to share this with you. Please be careful if you take Ambien. If you find yourself feeling different get away from them.
After reading everyones comments on ambien, I decided to share, in short, my tragic story of Ambien. My daughter Stefanie started Ambien in 01/06, she was seeing a doctor for anxiety, within a month she was a different person. She was found in a park delusional and could not remember how she had got there. She had smashed the back end of her car, couldn't remember. Three days later she was back in the hospital, because of the ambien. We had even begged the hospital to keep her. The saw no need. We explained to them of how we knew she had become addicted to the Ambien. She was pulled over numerous times, because she was driving irratically. So, Stef's father and myself went to see her doctor to inform him of all these incidents and to let him know that we believe that Stefanie had become addicted to them. After we left his office we did not feel that he was listening to us. I do not know if he thought we were just being over protective, but she is our daughter and we knew she was different. A couple weeks after our visit, Stefanie was involved in a one car accident and total her brand new car she had just purchased. I was very grateful that she was not injured. When I arrived at the scene of the accident the first thing I asked the officer was, "Can I hug my daughter", she was in the back seat of his car. She looked at me and said "mom, I'm all right nothing happened. I was becoming exteremly worried about her. I talked to her everyday and she could not see what her family was seeing. So, I returned to her doctors office, with her, to let him know of the accident. As we dicussed it with her in his office, his word that came out of his mouth will be forever etched in my brain. He says" Well why don't we just have Stefanie promise that she won't take more than prescibed". My reaction was, are you serious, she has a addiction & you want her to promise not to take more than prescribed. I could not believe my ears. Stefanie was not taking them to sleep anymore, she was taken them because she said that she felt better on them. For some reason the doctor did not heed my warnings. Ambien does lead to other addictions. I am not saying this happens to everyone, some people take it and do fine with it. For those it does affect, warnings need to be addressed and more research should be done. This is just a summary of events that happened in the few months Stef was on Ambien. Now my Stefanie is gone. She died June 11, 2006, at the tender young age of 21. Her cause of death was ruled as a homicide from multiple drug intoxication. Our lifes have forever changed. We watched our daughter go from a bright college student to someone she didn't even know. I am lost without her. We tried so very hard to help her & protect her. Stef's father and I will not give up until we can get people to understand how Ambien lead Stef down a dangerous road and it can happen to you."
"lilac,
I posted this in a differnet thread & then I saw your posting. I wanted to share this with you. Please be careful if you take Ambien. If you find yourself feeling different get away from them.
After reading everyones comments on ambien, I decided to share, in short, my tragic story of Ambien. My daughter Stefanie started Ambien in 01/06, she was seeing a doctor for anxiety, within a month she was a different person. She was found in a park delusional and could not remember how she had got there. She had smashed the back end of her car, couldn't remember. Three days later she was back in the hospital, because of the ambien. We had even begged the hospital to keep her. The saw no need. We explained to them of how we knew she had become addicted to the Ambien. She was pulled over numerous times, because she was driving irratically. So, Stef's father and myself went to see her doctor to inform him of all these incidents and to let him know that we believe that Stefanie had become addicted to them. After we left his office we did not feel that he was listening to us. I do not know if he thought we were just being over protective, but she is our daughter and we knew she was different. A couple weeks after our visit, Stefanie was involved in a one car accident and total her brand new car she had just purchased. I was very grateful that she was not injured. When I arrived at the scene of the accident the first thing I asked the officer was, "Can I hug my daughter", she was in the back seat of his car. She looked at me and said "mom, I'm all right nothing happened. I was becoming exteremly worried about her. I talked to her everyday and she could not see what her family was seeing. So, I returned to her doctors office, with her, to let him know of the accident. As we dicussed it with her in his office, his word that came out of his mouth will be forever etched in my brain. He says" Well why don't we just have Stefanie promise that she won't take more than prescibed". My reaction was, are you serious, she has a addiction & you want her to promise not to take more than prescribed. I could not believe my ears. Stefanie was not taking them to sleep anymore, she was taken them because she said that she felt better on them. For some reason the doctor did not heed my warnings. Ambien does lead to other addictions. I am not saying this happens to everyone, some people take it and do fine with it. For those it does affect, warnings need to be addressed and more research should be done. This is just a summary of events that happened in the few months Stef was on Ambien. Now my Stefanie is gone. She died June 11, 2006, at the tender young age of 21. Her cause of death was ruled as a homicide from multiple drug intoxication. Our lifes have forever changed. We watched our daughter go from a bright college student to someone she didn't even know. I am lost without her. We tried so very hard to help her & protect her. Stef's father and I will not give up until we can get people to understand how Ambien lead Stef down a dangerous road and it can happen to you."
Jeff070204
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 39
I leave the TV on all night
It would appear that for most people, 12-step and "sobriety" issues aside, life without at least SOME type of medication just isn't a realistic option, and for many is utterly unthinkable. It would appear my friend falls into the latter category.
My sobriety date is July 2nd, 2004. I spent the first two months of sobriety in a rehab facility. I experienced insomnia to one degree or another for the entire time. I had attempted to bring some pills containing diphenhydramine to the rehab with me for this purpose, but these were immediately confiscated when I checked in. I was almost not admitted to the rehab because benzos (Ativan) I had been given previously at a detox facility to curb severe withdrawal symptoms showed up in the drug screen during my intake. The message was abundantly clear to me: Sober = no drugs, period.
My trouble sleeping continued when I got out of rehab and moved into a halfway house. In retrospect, I probably could have "gotten away" with some kind of pills, but at the time this was unthinkable. I did have considerably more freedom, though, at the halfway house, and I was allowed to have a TV in my bedroom. I got into the habit of leaving the TV on all night with the sound at a low volume, and I found that this helped me sleep. I continue to do that to this day, and I'm still sober.
My sobriety date is July 2nd, 2004. I spent the first two months of sobriety in a rehab facility. I experienced insomnia to one degree or another for the entire time. I had attempted to bring some pills containing diphenhydramine to the rehab with me for this purpose, but these were immediately confiscated when I checked in. I was almost not admitted to the rehab because benzos (Ativan) I had been given previously at a detox facility to curb severe withdrawal symptoms showed up in the drug screen during my intake. The message was abundantly clear to me: Sober = no drugs, period.
My trouble sleeping continued when I got out of rehab and moved into a halfway house. In retrospect, I probably could have "gotten away" with some kind of pills, but at the time this was unthinkable. I did have considerably more freedom, though, at the halfway house, and I was allowed to have a TV in my bedroom. I got into the habit of leaving the TV on all night with the sound at a low volume, and I found that this helped me sleep. I continue to do that to this day, and I'm still sober.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
I used to be on Ambien and never did have any of the "bad" side effects that I've read about here and heard about other places.
Just remember - everyone reacts differently to medications. I switched from the Ambien to Lunesta when it quit working for me. It is true that you can build a tolerance to Ambien, I did......but it did not give me a high feeling by any means.
I continue to take my lunesta and klonazopam as prescribed when needed, and I'm still sober.
Some info on Ambien:
http://products.sanofi-aventis.us/ambien/ambien.pdf
The fact that it CAN become habit-forming and you CAN build a tolerance to it does not make it a narcotic. Of course, I'm not a doctor.....this is only my opinion based on experience and reading that I've done.
Just remember - everyone reacts differently to medications.
Jeff, I do not buy into this theory. Some people need some meds to make it through their day, what ever they may be. I still think that if someone is taking a prescribed med. as prescribed they are fine. It sounds like that is not the case with your friend, unfortunately.
Just remember - everyone reacts differently to medications. I switched from the Ambien to Lunesta when it quit working for me. It is true that you can build a tolerance to Ambien, I did......but it did not give me a high feeling by any means.
I continue to take my lunesta and klonazopam as prescribed when needed, and I'm still sober.
Some info on Ambien:
http://products.sanofi-aventis.us/ambien/ambien.pdf
Ambien CR is non-narcotic and a non-benzodiazepine, formulated to offer a new indication for sleep maintenance, in addition to sleep induction. Ambien CR, a bi-layered tablet. The first layer dissolves quickly to induce sleep. The second layer is released more gradually into the body to help provide more continuous sleep. Ambien CR will be available in a 12.5 mg dose recommended for adults and a 6.25 mg dose recommended for the elderly.
Source: http://arthritis.about.com/b/a/201395.htm
Source: http://arthritis.about.com/b/a/201395.htm
Drug Abuse And Dependence
Controlled substance
Zolpidem tartrate is classified as a Schedule IV controlled substance by federal regulation.
Abuse
Abuse and addiction are separate and distinct from physical dependence and tolerance. Abuse is characterized by misuse of the drug for non-medical purposes, often in combination with other psychoactive substances. Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist. Tolerance is a state of adaptation in which exposure to a drug induces changes that result in a diminution of one or more of the drug effects over time. Tolerance may occur to both desired and undesired effects of drugs and may develop at different rates for different effects.
Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving. Drug addiction is a treatable disease, using a multidisciplinary approach, but relapse is common
Studies of abuse potential in former drug abusers found that the effects of single doses of Ambien (zolpidem tartrate) 40 mg were similar, but not identical, to diazepam 20 mg, while zolpidem tartrate 10 mg was difficult to distinguish from placebo.
Dependence
Sedative/hypnotics have produced withdrawal signs and symptoms following abrupt discontinuation. These reported symptoms range from mild dysphoria and insomnia to a withdrawal syndrome that may include abdominal and muscle cramps, vomiting, sweating, tremors, and convulsions. The U.S. clinical trial experience from zolpidem does not reveal any clear evidence for withdrawal syndrome. Nevertheless, the following adverse events included in DSM-III-R criteria for uncomplicated sedative/hypnotic withdrawal were reported during U.S. clinical trials following placebo substitution occurring within 48 hours following last zolpidem treatment: fatigue, nausea, flushing, lightheadedness, uncontrolled crying, emesis, stomach cramps, panic attack, nervousness, and abdominal discomfort. These reported adverse events occurred at an incidence of 1% or less. However, available data cannot provide a reliable estimate of the incidence, if any, of dependence during treatment at recommended doses. Rare post-marketing reports of abuse, dependence and withdrawal have been received.
Because persons with a history of addiction to, or abuse of, drugs or alcohol are at increased risk of habituation and dependence, they should be under careful surveillance when receiving zolpidem or any other hypnotic.
Source: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/zolpid_ad.htm
Controlled substance
Zolpidem tartrate is classified as a Schedule IV controlled substance by federal regulation.
Abuse
Abuse and addiction are separate and distinct from physical dependence and tolerance. Abuse is characterized by misuse of the drug for non-medical purposes, often in combination with other psychoactive substances. Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist. Tolerance is a state of adaptation in which exposure to a drug induces changes that result in a diminution of one or more of the drug effects over time. Tolerance may occur to both desired and undesired effects of drugs and may develop at different rates for different effects.
Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving. Drug addiction is a treatable disease, using a multidisciplinary approach, but relapse is common
Studies of abuse potential in former drug abusers found that the effects of single doses of Ambien (zolpidem tartrate) 40 mg were similar, but not identical, to diazepam 20 mg, while zolpidem tartrate 10 mg was difficult to distinguish from placebo.
Dependence
Sedative/hypnotics have produced withdrawal signs and symptoms following abrupt discontinuation. These reported symptoms range from mild dysphoria and insomnia to a withdrawal syndrome that may include abdominal and muscle cramps, vomiting, sweating, tremors, and convulsions. The U.S. clinical trial experience from zolpidem does not reveal any clear evidence for withdrawal syndrome. Nevertheless, the following adverse events included in DSM-III-R criteria for uncomplicated sedative/hypnotic withdrawal were reported during U.S. clinical trials following placebo substitution occurring within 48 hours following last zolpidem treatment: fatigue, nausea, flushing, lightheadedness, uncontrolled crying, emesis, stomach cramps, panic attack, nervousness, and abdominal discomfort. These reported adverse events occurred at an incidence of 1% or less. However, available data cannot provide a reliable estimate of the incidence, if any, of dependence during treatment at recommended doses. Rare post-marketing reports of abuse, dependence and withdrawal have been received.
Because persons with a history of addiction to, or abuse of, drugs or alcohol are at increased risk of habituation and dependence, they should be under careful surveillance when receiving zolpidem or any other hypnotic.
Source: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/zolpid_ad.htm
Just remember - everyone reacts differently to medications.
The message was abundantly clear to me: Sober = no drugs, period.
Last edited by PaperDolls; 06-07-2007 at 02:26 PM. Reason: more info
dum vita est spes est
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: vita secundum nex
Posts: 287
Much like the way Professor Ashton's explain's semantics below about it's benzo. nature, IMHO is how I treat it's "narcotic" nature. No, it's not a syntheic opiate or a derivative but it can be (and was for me) HIGHLY addictive...below is a list of the controlled substances, recognizing of course that narcotic doesn't equal controlled substance.
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/sc...phabetical.htm
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Is Ambien a Benzodiazapine?
April 8, 2002. Email from Professor Ashton.
The whole argument turns on semantics and your definition of what is or is not a benzodiazepine.
If you define a benzo by its chemical structure, a benzene ring attached to a seven-sided diazepine nucleus, well then, no, Ambien is not a benzo.
But that strikes me as a rather transparent linguistic maneuver. Think about this example. You tell a child not to walk over a line. He subsequently jumps over the line, and then insists that he didn't break your rule because he did not in fact walk over the line, he jumped over it. In a literal sense he is correct. But we feel that he is attempting to deceive us, and we can see right through it. He has ended up on the other side of the line, regardless of how he got there.
I think the analogy is fairly clear with Ambien and the benzodiazepines. No, Ambien does not literally have a benzene ring and a diazepine nucleus. But it does act at the GABA BZD1 receptor complex just like a classical benzodiazepine. It gets to the same place, so to speak, albeit with a different chemical structure.
So, from the standpoint of a chemist Ambien is not a benzodiazepine, but from the standpoint of a patient's nervous system it is a benzodiazepine.
It is particularly annoying to me that the marketing folks at Searle have leveraged this little word game to make Ambien seem more innocuous to prescribing physicians and sleep disturbed consumers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpts from Prof. Heather Ashton's speech at the Maine Benzodiazepine Conference in Bangor Maine on October 12, 2005. NB that Lunesta aka eszopiclone, a cousin of the three Z drugs: zolpidem (Ambien), zopiclone (Zimovane) and zaleplon (Sonata), and it is being marketed as safe for long-term use.
"These are not chemically benzodiazepines but they bind to GABA
receptor complexes which are close to or actually coupled with
benzodiazepine receptors. They are said to be more selective, binding
mainly to the a1 GABA receptor subtype which mediates the hypnotic
effects of benzodiazepines. In practice they are not all that
selective and have much the same actions as benzodiazepines. In the
UK, the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE), which
advises the Health Service on optimum drug use, recommended that Z
drugs should be used for short-term treatment only (2-4 weeks) and
then only as second line treatments after benzodiazepines. They
concluded that the Z drugs produced the same therapeutic and adverse
effects as benzodiazepine hypnotics, including tolerance, dependence
and abuse, and were also more expensive.
"As a clinical example, a psychiatrist recently asked my advice about
the nursing sister he was helping to withdraw from lorazepam (Ativan).
She developed quite severe withdrawal symptoms as the dosage was
lowered and had trouble sleeping. To help her, the psychiatrist
prescribed zopiclone (Zimovane) to take at night. She found that this
drug completely relieved her withdrawal symptoms. In fact, it was so
successful that she started taking zopiclone in the daytime as well.
She ended up taking zopiclone six times a day as well as at night,
ending up with a total dose of over 40mg/day (the recommended dose is
7.5mg at night). The psychiatrist was chagrined to find that he had
merely replaced one form of addiction with another.
"There are a number of cases in the literature of such escalation of
dosage with zopiclone, followed by dependence and withdrawal symptoms
on stopping. There are also an increasing number of cases reported of
misuse and abuse of high doses of zolpidem (Ambien). This can result
in hallucinations and psychosis and is reminiscent of the adverse
effects of triazolam (Halcion), the short-acting benzodiazepine
hypnotic now banned in the UK.
"Now eszopiclone [Lunesta] is being promoted for long-term use and the
manufacturers report trials lasting two weeks to six months of its
hypnotic effects. They report little tolerance or loss of efficacy
over these periods and a low incidence of rebound insomnia or anxiety
(3.7%) on stopping. Euphoria was noted in high doses, suggesting an
abuse potential. I remain sceptical of these results which involved
relatively small numbers of subjects with various types of insomnia.
I am not convinced that eszopiclone is all that different from
zopiclone, apart from its potency, and I think it would be prudent to
limit it to short-term use until proved otherwise."
"There is a basic pharmacological principle that any drug which acts
on intrinsic body receptors will cause adaptive changes in these
receptors if used chronically. This is because the body is programmed
to restore homeostasis if its internal environment is disturbed. For
every drug action in the body there is an equal (as far as possible)
reaction which tends to restore the status quo. This mechanism
underlies the development of drug tolerance and dependence and also of
withdrawal reactions if the drug is stopped. It applies not only to
benzodiazepines but also to non-psychotropic drugs like b blockers.
For example, B blockers such as propranolol are used to slow the heart
and lower the blood pressure. If these are suddenly stopped there is
a rebound of increased heart rate and raised blood pressure. We
accept that tolerance and withdrawal reactions occur with
benzodiazepines, barbiturates and all the hypnotic and sedative drugs
that have gone before. We even understand much about the molecular
mechanisms involved - which I won't go into here. There seems no
reason to believe that these reactions will not apply to Z-drugs.
"I suspect that the Z-drugs will undergo the fate of many newly
introduced drugs - a fate that is becoming all too familiar."
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/sc...phabetical.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is Ambien a Benzodiazapine?
April 8, 2002. Email from Professor Ashton.
The whole argument turns on semantics and your definition of what is or is not a benzodiazepine.
If you define a benzo by its chemical structure, a benzene ring attached to a seven-sided diazepine nucleus, well then, no, Ambien is not a benzo.
But that strikes me as a rather transparent linguistic maneuver. Think about this example. You tell a child not to walk over a line. He subsequently jumps over the line, and then insists that he didn't break your rule because he did not in fact walk over the line, he jumped over it. In a literal sense he is correct. But we feel that he is attempting to deceive us, and we can see right through it. He has ended up on the other side of the line, regardless of how he got there.
I think the analogy is fairly clear with Ambien and the benzodiazepines. No, Ambien does not literally have a benzene ring and a diazepine nucleus. But it does act at the GABA BZD1 receptor complex just like a classical benzodiazepine. It gets to the same place, so to speak, albeit with a different chemical structure.
So, from the standpoint of a chemist Ambien is not a benzodiazepine, but from the standpoint of a patient's nervous system it is a benzodiazepine.
It is particularly annoying to me that the marketing folks at Searle have leveraged this little word game to make Ambien seem more innocuous to prescribing physicians and sleep disturbed consumers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpts from Prof. Heather Ashton's speech at the Maine Benzodiazepine Conference in Bangor Maine on October 12, 2005. NB that Lunesta aka eszopiclone, a cousin of the three Z drugs: zolpidem (Ambien), zopiclone (Zimovane) and zaleplon (Sonata), and it is being marketed as safe for long-term use.
"These are not chemically benzodiazepines but they bind to GABA
receptor complexes which are close to or actually coupled with
benzodiazepine receptors. They are said to be more selective, binding
mainly to the a1 GABA receptor subtype which mediates the hypnotic
effects of benzodiazepines. In practice they are not all that
selective and have much the same actions as benzodiazepines. In the
UK, the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE), which
advises the Health Service on optimum drug use, recommended that Z
drugs should be used for short-term treatment only (2-4 weeks) and
then only as second line treatments after benzodiazepines. They
concluded that the Z drugs produced the same therapeutic and adverse
effects as benzodiazepine hypnotics, including tolerance, dependence
and abuse, and were also more expensive.
"As a clinical example, a psychiatrist recently asked my advice about
the nursing sister he was helping to withdraw from lorazepam (Ativan).
She developed quite severe withdrawal symptoms as the dosage was
lowered and had trouble sleeping. To help her, the psychiatrist
prescribed zopiclone (Zimovane) to take at night. She found that this
drug completely relieved her withdrawal symptoms. In fact, it was so
successful that she started taking zopiclone in the daytime as well.
She ended up taking zopiclone six times a day as well as at night,
ending up with a total dose of over 40mg/day (the recommended dose is
7.5mg at night). The psychiatrist was chagrined to find that he had
merely replaced one form of addiction with another.
"There are a number of cases in the literature of such escalation of
dosage with zopiclone, followed by dependence and withdrawal symptoms
on stopping. There are also an increasing number of cases reported of
misuse and abuse of high doses of zolpidem (Ambien). This can result
in hallucinations and psychosis and is reminiscent of the adverse
effects of triazolam (Halcion), the short-acting benzodiazepine
hypnotic now banned in the UK.
"Now eszopiclone [Lunesta] is being promoted for long-term use and the
manufacturers report trials lasting two weeks to six months of its
hypnotic effects. They report little tolerance or loss of efficacy
over these periods and a low incidence of rebound insomnia or anxiety
(3.7%) on stopping. Euphoria was noted in high doses, suggesting an
abuse potential. I remain sceptical of these results which involved
relatively small numbers of subjects with various types of insomnia.
I am not convinced that eszopiclone is all that different from
zopiclone, apart from its potency, and I think it would be prudent to
limit it to short-term use until proved otherwise."
"There is a basic pharmacological principle that any drug which acts
on intrinsic body receptors will cause adaptive changes in these
receptors if used chronically. This is because the body is programmed
to restore homeostasis if its internal environment is disturbed. For
every drug action in the body there is an equal (as far as possible)
reaction which tends to restore the status quo. This mechanism
underlies the development of drug tolerance and dependence and also of
withdrawal reactions if the drug is stopped. It applies not only to
benzodiazepines but also to non-psychotropic drugs like b blockers.
For example, B blockers such as propranolol are used to slow the heart
and lower the blood pressure. If these are suddenly stopped there is
a rebound of increased heart rate and raised blood pressure. We
accept that tolerance and withdrawal reactions occur with
benzodiazepines, barbiturates and all the hypnotic and sedative drugs
that have gone before. We even understand much about the molecular
mechanisms involved - which I won't go into here. There seems no
reason to believe that these reactions will not apply to Z-drugs.
"I suspect that the Z-drugs will undergo the fate of many newly
introduced drugs - a fate that is becoming all too familiar."
Last edited by PurpleReign; 06-07-2007 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Addition
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
wow.
dood.
glad I dumped it.
the doc prescribed another, (sleeping aid) and I dumped it, too.
I just can't think of the name of it. I didn't see it in these posts, though.
You know - that ticks me off - I THOUGHT I had a clear 'no narc' agreement wth the doc about meds. No 'stoner' policy with me. I'm gonna see her next week - this is somethng for me to print out and take to her.
Maybe she doesn't know?
Wonder if I should put 'tag' on my file at the pharmacy about that, too?
Thanks PR!
dood.
glad I dumped it.
the doc prescribed another, (sleeping aid) and I dumped it, too.
I just can't think of the name of it. I didn't see it in these posts, though.
You know - that ticks me off - I THOUGHT I had a clear 'no narc' agreement wth the doc about meds. No 'stoner' policy with me. I'm gonna see her next week - this is somethng for me to print out and take to her.
Maybe she doesn't know?
Wonder if I should put 'tag' on my file at the pharmacy about that, too?
Thanks PR!
To Life!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 9,293
What the doc and patient determine to be best for the patient is none of our business. Even Bill W says there are some who need meds.
This issue is very close to my heart. My son stopped taking prescribed meds because an NA person said he wasn't "clean." He went back out as a direct result, and almost died. He's a heroin addict. Believe me, I wanted to break every bone in that loud mouth, know it all arse's body! How DARE he play doctor with my son's life!
If you want to be a doctor - get a medical degree!
Sorry, I obviously have strong feelings about this.
Because, if it don't have our name on it, it's not our business. :nono:
Shalom!
This issue is very close to my heart. My son stopped taking prescribed meds because an NA person said he wasn't "clean." He went back out as a direct result, and almost died. He's a heroin addict. Believe me, I wanted to break every bone in that loud mouth, know it all arse's body! How DARE he play doctor with my son's life!
If you want to be a doctor - get a medical degree!
Sorry, I obviously have strong feelings about this.
Because, if it don't have our name on it, it's not our business. :nono:
Shalom!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
Thank you Teach! I have been very tempted to really speak my mind here, as you did, but was either chicken, didn't want a debate or thought my opinion didn't count because everyone has one.
But .....here is what I have heard from my psychiatrist and my husband's doctor within a week of each other......every person's chemistry is so unique and different that is is impossible to generalize drugs in the way they act in a person.
Like Trevor, I became convinced than any benzo was the devil. I proclaimed myself an addict and detoxed like crazy taking off so much work that it ruined my job. Guess what...I got back to Florida and my p-doc was very upset with me, being strong willed we bickered for 4 sessions. Guess what.....some of you want to junkie on benzos...go for it, it is common.....for me it is a necessity.
For some of you, Prozac is a lifeline....for me.....it must be the super-cocaine of the world. I threw away a 6 month scrip. Sonata made me pyschotic and my sister drove 3 hrs to take me to the emergency room....I came to work looking like a hooker and talking about seeing 4 of things. Idiots at work thought I was "on drugs" and told me to go home.! I wasn't safe to drive, thank G*d secretary called my sis.
Unknowingly I had gone to neighbor/co-worker during the night to tell him someone had been in my apt and changed all the clocks!
'
Before I go on a real rant, it isn't the DR's fault or that young man's fault that Ambien reacted badly with his chemistry. It is generally considered a safe drug...and I don't care what you say about lack of sleep never killed anybody......it is a form or torture, it is unhealthy and it is one of the 4 top things a psychiastrist will ask in evaluating your well-being.
I see it on here all the time...Welbutrin calms one person, it makes my husband so agitated he can't stand it.
SSRI antidepressants keep me healthy. They don't help my husband. He needs a tryciclic.
I can't even tolerate normal caffeine for heaven's sake. So think about that when you order your iced tea or coke at lunch! STIMULANTS! Like a line of whatever.
The really screwed up part is that man was prescribed Ambien, it is assumed safe, he assumed it was safe and may not even be aware of its effects on him. See recent issues of Time and Newsweek for people eating/driving all sorts of things in this sleep induced state totally unaware for weeks. They wonder why the gain weight. Well, from me when you are eating in your sleep, you are asleep. Hubby kept worring that I would choke as I would fall asleep between bites.
So, don't assume intentional abuse. Call the DR and say this and that has been happening. They will know to give you a different class of drug.
'Trazadone/Desyrel is assumed safe, it is an old drug. I just refused that one anymore too....because of nightmares even tho' it was a great adjunct to my antidepressant.
Wanna here more? Hubby is disabled with severe/extreme pain. They gave him methadone. He didn't bother to fill the refill....prefers an aspirin/tylenol/caffeine combination commonly called Goodie's Powders now new in orange flavor.
My Dr after I had been to the emergency room was furious that I had been prescribed that drub and wanted to report the Dr to whomever authorities. He said that it causes amnesia mixed with my other meds and I might take one and in 10 minute not be able to remember taking it and take another etc.
I wasn't abusing. I was having a psychotic reaction!
If what you are prescribed is having detrimental side effects...it doesn't mean that you are abusing them, being irresponsible or any such. It MEANS, you are having unwanted side effects that are not good for you. Call the DR., See the Dr, get the help you need to be well and what anyone else thinks about it is none of their damned business.!
l;ive
But .....here is what I have heard from my psychiatrist and my husband's doctor within a week of each other......every person's chemistry is so unique and different that is is impossible to generalize drugs in the way they act in a person.
Like Trevor, I became convinced than any benzo was the devil. I proclaimed myself an addict and detoxed like crazy taking off so much work that it ruined my job. Guess what...I got back to Florida and my p-doc was very upset with me, being strong willed we bickered for 4 sessions. Guess what.....some of you want to junkie on benzos...go for it, it is common.....for me it is a necessity.
For some of you, Prozac is a lifeline....for me.....it must be the super-cocaine of the world. I threw away a 6 month scrip. Sonata made me pyschotic and my sister drove 3 hrs to take me to the emergency room....I came to work looking like a hooker and talking about seeing 4 of things. Idiots at work thought I was "on drugs" and told me to go home.! I wasn't safe to drive, thank G*d secretary called my sis.
Unknowingly I had gone to neighbor/co-worker during the night to tell him someone had been in my apt and changed all the clocks!
'
Before I go on a real rant, it isn't the DR's fault or that young man's fault that Ambien reacted badly with his chemistry. It is generally considered a safe drug...and I don't care what you say about lack of sleep never killed anybody......it is a form or torture, it is unhealthy and it is one of the 4 top things a psychiastrist will ask in evaluating your well-being.
I see it on here all the time...Welbutrin calms one person, it makes my husband so agitated he can't stand it.
SSRI antidepressants keep me healthy. They don't help my husband. He needs a tryciclic.
I can't even tolerate normal caffeine for heaven's sake. So think about that when you order your iced tea or coke at lunch! STIMULANTS! Like a line of whatever.
The really screwed up part is that man was prescribed Ambien, it is assumed safe, he assumed it was safe and may not even be aware of its effects on him. See recent issues of Time and Newsweek for people eating/driving all sorts of things in this sleep induced state totally unaware for weeks. They wonder why the gain weight. Well, from me when you are eating in your sleep, you are asleep. Hubby kept worring that I would choke as I would fall asleep between bites.
So, don't assume intentional abuse. Call the DR and say this and that has been happening. They will know to give you a different class of drug.
'Trazadone/Desyrel is assumed safe, it is an old drug. I just refused that one anymore too....because of nightmares even tho' it was a great adjunct to my antidepressant.
Wanna here more? Hubby is disabled with severe/extreme pain. They gave him methadone. He didn't bother to fill the refill....prefers an aspirin/tylenol/caffeine combination commonly called Goodie's Powders now new in orange flavor.
My Dr after I had been to the emergency room was furious that I had been prescribed that drub and wanted to report the Dr to whomever authorities. He said that it causes amnesia mixed with my other meds and I might take one and in 10 minute not be able to remember taking it and take another etc.
I wasn't abusing. I was having a psychotic reaction!
If what you are prescribed is having detrimental side effects...it doesn't mean that you are abusing them, being irresponsible or any such. It MEANS, you are having unwanted side effects that are not good for you. Call the DR., See the Dr, get the help you need to be well and what anyone else thinks about it is none of their damned business.!
l;ive
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