Anyone have any thoughts on Stanton Peele's Approach?

[amandajane]

I've had his book for some time, The Truth About Addiction and Recovery. It's available on amazon.com and his web site.

Once I'm over this detox period I'll be trying out his plan and writing about it on a little web site I've just set up.

Does anyone else have any thoughts/views on his approach? Negative and positive views all welcomed :-)

[Don S]

I've read a lot of Peele's writings, but I don't really know that he has a specific 'approach' in them. Most of what I've read seems more geared to social policy than to an individual plan for recovery. His harm reduction concept, for example, gets a lot of criticism from abstinence-only advocates, but I don't think he's advocating that people adopt moderation as a practice--just that it be recognized that reducing the harm of heavy drinking behavior is a laudable accomplishment even if abstinence is not achieved. And he has spent a lot of time shattering common myths about substance abuse.
It's been a long time since I read that particular book. So if there are specific suggestions he has I'd be interested in talking about them. Generally he favors cognitive approaches, which is certainly my preference.

[CarolD]

I found my recovery before I was aware of his writings.
Ergo.. I saw no reason to follow his opinions.

[Music]

Call me narrow-minded, brainwashed, stubborn....whatever. The people who wrote the AA Big Book were drunks just like me, otherwise how would they have known so much about me before I came to AA. I don't know that Peele ever took a drink in his life and don't care. If a person's not a full blown drunk, I'll be polite and listen, but what they say has little credibility with me.

[debsjsu]

Sorry Amanda I got sidetracked, I am not familure with the author you ask about.. I like Carol and Music got sober and found what I was looking for once that happened I didn't have to search anylonger for myself. However I am now on a quest to learn more so that maybe I will be able to help some others that I know, so I am interested in reading the respectful post here to see what you find out.. I have found Don to be encyclopedia of information and accurate as far as I have been able to tell ( we are on the internet so I try to check things out you never know who you can trust) so far he has been correct in his information as far as I have been able to discern. Sometimes he is a little above my head in intelligence with the explinations, ( he can't help that) Hope we both find what we are looking for.... Love to ya Debs

[daisy_j]

"If a person's not a full blown drunk, I'll be polite and listen, but what they say has little credibility with me."

I tend to agree. It would almost be akin to reading a book about surviving cancer written by someone who has never had it. I guess a possible exception for me would be something written by a medical professional who could offer some insight to the physiological aspects of alcoholism. Otherwise I seem to learn a lot from others who have been there/done that.

GJ

[amandajane]

Hey thanks for the replies :-)

I've not read all of Stanton's book but the parts I have read (and some of his web site) resonates well with me.

He is highly qualified, having a Phd, so I have respect for that. As I have respect for psychiatrists and psychologists - they have to study a hell of a lot to get to that place.

I don't agree that they don't know what its like personally if they've never had a drink so therefore they can't properly understand. But, if it's a newbie drugs/alcohol counsellor with little training that's never been addicted then I agree completely - they don't have a clue what it's like.

Harm reduction sounds like a good first step to abstinance if that's what ppl are seeking. Gradual withdrawal from alcohol is what is recommended here in NZ by the CADS team (community alcohol and drugs specialists).

Stopping suddenly can be very harmful and even cause death. I was told I should have cut down before giving up last week by a very qualified specialist. It was too late by that time and I was suffering some quite extreme withdrawal symptoms.

When I first saw a psychiatrist over three years ago, when I was just as heavy a drinker as I was over the last six months she didn't diagnose me as alcohol dependent and told me it had been my choice to go for abstinance. My gp however thinks I am alcohol dependent and should be abstinant. What a conundrum!

I want to stay abstinance for the sake of my mental health, I tend to fall into a major depressive episode if I drink for too long. Maybe one day I'll be able to drink socially without getting out of control but I do doubt that, after 25 years of binge drinking.

I'll read some more of Stanton's books and hopefully have some interesting thoughts to relay :-)

[jimhere]

First off, I've said it before on this forum, and now I'll say it again-As an AA member it is not my job to convince anyone that AA is the right way. It is the right way for me, I do know that. I do have to agree that an alcoholic can touch another alcoholic in a way that most non-alcoholics can't.
But, to reiterate what I've said before, I'm for any method or approach that helps an alcoholic recover-follow your conscience or your heart, if you will.
And, IrishVirus, I don't believe that "having the brains," as you you say has much to do with an alcoholic's inability to stop, at least not on a level of pure reason. If being intelligent was enough, I'd have been sober long before my sobriety date.
Regards,
Jim

[Don S]

For those of you who are not too disgusted by someone you know nothing about to even consider his works, here is a link to his publications:
http://peele.net/lib/library.html

[paulmh]

Thanks for the link Don, I've skipped through some of the stuff here and it's very interesting. Amandajane, I have no direct experience of Stanton's approach but certainly the notion that "addiction" is a much more common trait than is realised, and is only a problem when it becomes truly acute is quite a challenging one. I understand the antipathy towards the "disease" model of addiction - since no-one has ever pinned down the "cause" of alcoholism - much like no-one has ever really pinned down the "cause" of cancer - I always found it more useful to treat the word "disease" in this context as a medical metaphor. There is no doubt though that alcoholism, like cancer, has a common pathology - it's this retrospective identification that makes the disease model useful, if certainly imperfect.

I think a lot of the time this was my problem - looking for a perfect model of alcoholism which was intellectually satisfying, prior to getting sober - as an aside I found the process of trying to uncover a perfect solution to be both Sisyphean and masturbatory. They're all flawed. Indulging the need to find the perfect solution before treating myself proved to be a monumental self-indulgence, and waste of life. In advance of getting well I invited the world to show me it's best? I've found my treatment. I genuinely hope that you find yours soon. Active alcoholism is an insufferable place to be. I like your polite notice to AA members. I'll respect it.

Frito you remind me of me. I used to go to a forum which was almost completely devoid of AA members, and had RR as its dominant philosophy. I found it frustrating. I felt I wasn't taken seriously enough. I realised that I was learning more about myself and my character flaws than I was about other people.

[CarolD]

Off Topic post were removed.

[amandajane]

I've been reading some more of Stanton's book today and I would think it would be ok to quote it here a small amount of text is considered appropriate generally for reference purposes.

Disease Model

• Your addiction is inbred (genetic, biological)
• You get the same therapy as everyone else
• You must accept your identity as an addict/alcoholic
• Your therapy and cure are dictated to you
• Either you are addicted or you aren't
• Your addictive symptoms are drummed into you
• Any claims you have to being okay are attacked as denial
• You are taught you have no control or ability to choose
• Therapy focuses on addiction
• Total abstinance is the only successful resolution
• You must avoid challenging situations
• Your primary social supports are your fellow addicts
• You need the same treatment and group support forever
• You are always an addict

Life Process Program

• Your addiction is a way of coping with life experience
• You design a treatment that fits you
• You focus on problems and not labels
• You arrive at your own goals and therapy plans
• Your addiction will vary depending on your situation
• You identify the negative consequences of the addiction
• Positive aspects of your self-image are accepted and amplified
• You accept the need for self control and to make choices
• Therapy focuses on life environment
• Improved control and relapse reduction are accepted
• You must be more aware of and deal differently with difficult situations
• Your primary social supports are your work/family/friends
• Your treatment or group support evolves over life
• You can lose your addiction and no longer need to think of yourself as an addict

Source: Peele, Brodsky, and Arnold, The Truth About Addiction and Recovery (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1991), p. 174.

When I read the lists I realise that during the last four years since I started recovery I've followed alot of Stanton's principles through the advice and guidance from my counsellor and come a *very* long way.

I am not in denial that I have an alcohol dependency, I know that I use alcohol and have used street drugs to cope. I realise I need to learn to deal differently when I have a concurrent series of stressful events as has happened recently. This is my first relapse and I'm not ashamed, I don't have to start again at the beginning, I just need to get back on track.

I have seriously considered the disease model as I've done a couple of psychology papers out of pure interest and learned a lot during that time. But the thought of declaring myself diseased and a recovering alcoholic for the rest of my life and going through the shameful process offered by the disease model proponants is not appropriate for me. But I do understand that it works for some people.

I really think that the term 'disease' is a disempowering one, giving a person an excuse to continue with their alcohol consumption on an exterior and interior level.

Does anyone else feel this way or have any experiences with both the non-disease and the disease model to relate?

Any thoughts on the list above? What's worked for you and what hasn't?

Thank you :-)

[amandajane]

Oops quite a few posts were made whilst I was writing my previous one - I'll read again and comment when I've had a bite to eat :-)

Ty again and thank you Carol - much appreciated!

[amandajane]

Hi Don,

Thank you for your input,

I favour the cognitive approach too. I've got an interesting book here called "Cognitive Therapy of Substance Abuse" which helped me to tackle my street drug addictions, specifically cannabis which was the hardest for me to kick. Again I was using it as an (albeit faulty) coping mechanism.

The listing of positive and negative effects of my addictions helped enormously too. Recognising that I was giving something up that helped me to 'cope' with life but exchanging that for new more healthy coping mechanisms and a great deal of self esteem gained as a result tipped the scales in the direction of quitting.

Stanton talks about this too in his book and I believe it's been discussed elsewhere here too specifically in a very interesting thread I'm reading here (My Addiction... exploring the good and the bad... thanks to Don S.)

May I ask, how long have you been sober and what method did you use Don?

Paulamh

You mentioned this

notion that "addiction" is a much more common trait than is realised, and is only a problem when it becomes truly acute is quite a challenging one.

Were you quoting this from Peele's philosophy page?

It views addiction as a general pattern of behavior that nearly everyone experiences in varying degrees at one time or another.Viewed in this context, addiction is not unusual, although it can grow to overwhelming and life-defeating dimensions

I understood that as meaning that addiction is not necessarily life destroying, that most people will experience it on some level or another at some point in life and that it can be dealt with on psychosocial level so that it doesn't reach extreme proportions. Therefore they don't have to label themselves as diseased addicts for the entirety of their lives and live with the shame that society still dumps upon the unfortunate 'alcoholic'.

For example, I have known a number of people with food addictions, it becomes life threatening when obesity becomes a problem and the resultant issues of diabetes and heart disease etc but can and is dealt with often before it reaches that level.

That person doesn't have to remain overweight or obese and can identify and replace the need that's being fulfilled by excessive food consumption and replace it with healthier ways of fulfilling that need. Therefore that person is no longer considered to have a food addiction and is considered 'recovered'. I believe that it is possible to overcome alcohol dependency in the same way.

Then there is addiction to other seemingly benign things, like the internet for example, which is now considered in some quarters not to be an addiction per se but an indicator that addiction issues could be or are a problem in the person's life.

Changing the subject, thank you for the new word to add to my vocab - Sisyphean - that'll come in useful I'm sure :-)

Music - that's a rather all or nothing/black and white approach to assessing a persons credability as a functional professional support person don't you think?

As mentioned above I agree on some levels, after visiting a trainee drug and alcohol counsellor some years ago it was evident she'd never smoked cannabis in her life (that was what I was there for) so I went and found someone more experienced, who had, and who understood. A balance can be sought there I feel.

Thank you for your feedback!

I think that about covers everything at this point, thanks again everyone, I'm really enjoying my time here, please excuse me if I'm over posting as it were :-)

[Don S]

Six Principles of Change

I've always liked this sidebar from his article The Surprising Truth About Addiction (Psychology Today, May - June 2004).
http://peele.net/lib/surprising.html
(emphasis added)
One. The belief that you can change is the key to change. This is not the powerlessness message of the 12 steps but rather the belief in self-efficacy. Addictions are really no different than other behaviors—believing you can change encourages commitment to the process and enhances the likelihood of success.

Two. The type of treatment is less critical than the individual’s commitment to change. People can select how they want to pursue change in line with their own values and preferences. They don’t need to be told how to change.

Three. Brief treatments can change longstanding habits. It is not the intensity of the treatment that allows people to change but rather its ability to inspire continued efforts in that direction.

Four. Life skills can be the key to licking addiction. All addictions may not be equal; the community reinforcement approach, with its emphasis on developing life skills, might be needed for those more severely debilitated by drugs and alcohol.

Five. Repeated efforts are critical in change. People do not often get better instantly—it usually takes multiple efforts. Providing follow-up allows people to maintain focus on their change goals. Eventually, they stand a good chance of achieving them.

Six. Improvement, without abstinence, counts. People do not usually succeed all at once. But they can show significant improvements; and all improvement should be accepted and rewarded. It is counterproductive to kick people out of therapy for failing to abstain. The therapeutic approach of recognizing improvement in the absence of abstinence is called harm reduction.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by amandajane

...
May I ask, how long have you been sober and what method did you use Don?
...

I found SMART Recovery most useful. I mostly used the forum boards and reading materials, not being able at the time to go to the online meetings (they weren't Mac-compatible), but there is an extensive schedule of online meetings available. Stanton Peele was a guest at an online meeting a year or so ago, and was apparently a very lively and interesting guest. He doesn't shy away from controversy, nor does he take himself too seriously.
Sorry, but I never answer the 'how long' question.

[paulmh]

Hi Amandajane

yes, I was referring to the part of Peele's philosophy which models addiction as a fluid trait which can assert itself or be quiescent. The word I used was "interesting", which the idea is - no more, no less. What I think tends to happen most healthily to people who have problematic relationships with anything - drink, drugs, food, sex, gambling, whatever - is that they achieve something like closure in their relationship with the substance of choice. I don't, categorically, wish to go back to wondering if I can have a relationship with booze on my own terms, and it's literally academic to me now whether or not that might be an option. I don't feel I need to resolve the issue of me and booze. It's been resolved. When I worked with inexperienced professionals I had a compulsion. Now that I keep company with alcoholics I don't. I don't know how it works, and I didn't plan it in advance. Just entered into fellowship because I had exhausted all the rational avenues.

And with respect, if you're going to politely rebut AA members from giving you their experience of alcoholism, it might be better if you avoided using contentious language about their - our - model of recovery. You might have some prejudices about what AA stands for. If you keep exercising them I don't think the polite note about AA keeping away will work, since frankly it looks like you're goading us. We don't suffer from shame, we don't label ourselves as diseased, and as for self-esteem, mine has never been better.

Have a good day

[paulmh]

Don said:

Sorry, but I never answer the 'how long' question.

Respectfully - why?

Or is it just that you employ a "sober today" approach?

[amandajane]

Hi again Don,

Those Principles of Change are very useful and relevant I feel, thank you for posting them, hopefully they'll come in handy for other members here.

I particularly resonate with the principle that all positive moves should be valued and applauded, all steps in the recovery direction are part of the process. I like that saying that it's the journey and not the destination :-)

Hi Paul

Please don't take offense to my comments re the disease model. I wasn't being specific to AA, that wasn't the implication. The disease model is a virtually worldwide phenomenon now, and not just a 12 step process. A lot of shame is heaped on 'alcoholics' and 'addicts' by society in general, which is something Peele has worked to change.

Also I did mention that I know that model works for some people. If I were to comment on AA I would do so specifically, which I have done in one of my posts and don't feel the need to rehash my views specific to AA in other threads. I wasn't goading you or anyone else.

Btw, I like your statement re reaching closure in their relationship with their substance of choice, that's very eloquent. I'm happy that your issues regarding alcohol have been resolved and that your self esteem has never been better. Go well :-)

[amandajane]

Also - thank you for the reference to SMART recovery Don, I'll check it out - it sounds interesting.

Changing the subject briefly - you mention you have a mac - are you a creative?


edited to add Don's name :-)

[leviathon]

Amanda, thank you for posting this thread, it is nice to see someone else's thought process. I appreciate all aspects of recovery, whether it is the approach I prefer, or one that is not to my liking, the point is that I learn from all approaches. I take what I like and let the rest go.

I too do not believe in the "all or nothing approach" to sobriety wherein if you have slipped you go back and start at day one... that suggests that you did not learn anything. I know from personal experience that my "slips" led me to greater understanding, greater insight and allowed me to continue to recover with a greater commitment. That isn't to say the "slips" are allowable, but if one happens, I don't say "oh, that's it, I don't know anything, I've blown it, I am hopeless", I simply ask: "Ok, what have I learned? What were the things that led to this happening? What did I do wrong? How can I ensure this doesn't trip me up again?"

I then forgive myself and I renew my efforts with confidence and serenity.

Peace, Levi

[Five]

Stanton Rocks.

If you like the approach of trying to put the whole addcition experience behind, including "recoverY", then he is your main.

His major work, correct me if I a wrong, is understanding and studying the NATURAL HISTORY OF ALCOHOLISIM. Which any alcoholic would find interesting.

As a side note I have been trying to work out his political bent for a while now, any ideas?

Recommended.

[miss communicat]

DonS

I am so glad to hear you decline from answering the "how long" question. The measurement of progress based on days, weeks and years without a drink is not useful for me either.

It is another form of prejudgement that I wish to freed of, not reinforced.

[leviathon]

I am in agreement with the refusal to provide sobriety in days, months and years.... my experience with this evolved over time... there were times that I floated through without any issues and other times that I slipped. I do know that one constant change has evolved through my recovery, that I no longer have the desire to drink to oblivion. When I have slipped, I immediately regained my balance and moved forward and learned from the slip.

Peace, Levi

[leviathon]

Originally Posted by Don S

http://peele.net/lib/surprising.html

Thanks for the link, I am amazed at how much of his work is available from this sight link. A truly amazing guy.

Again, my thanks Don S.

Peace, Levi