Dan

Yep.
Until you experience consequences other than a hangover or withdrawal.
Get beyond that line, where consequences start with a capital C, then you might be hard pressed to think of a worse circumstance and condition.

Midas

Right off the top, there's ONE thing worse than being an alcoholic--and that's being an alcoholic sent up to the State Pen for double count vehicular manslaughter. No thanks for me, I'm tryin' to cut back...

nocellphone

Not to be blunt, but you are aware that alcoholism kills people, aren't you?

That's what they mean when it's said that untreated alcoholism leads to jails, institutions and death (the fourth eventuality, which I find gets left out, is a long life of acute sustained misery, like that's fun). Cemeteries are absolutely overflowing with alcoholics who had the same "Whatever..." attitude. I'd hate to think that another alcoholic might needlessly die from this disease, but I guess I have to accept that this is a part of this vicious disease.

Alcoholism: the disease that tells you you don't have a disease. Cunning, baffling and powerful, indeed...

Rather than continuing down the "I couldn't care less" road, perhaps it's time you started caring a whole lot---about YOU!!!

Don S

...unless it's going back to AA before driving drunk and killing people. Would you folks quit using Kishline as an example of the perils of moderate drinking?! What she was doing when she drove drunk was trying to get sober in AA. Evidently not successfully.
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Seattle TimesFriday, June 30, 2000


'Moderate Drinking' author pleads guilty


by Andrew DeMillo


ELLENSBURG - In a courtroom filled with the somber relatives of her victims, the founder of a national movement that says problem drinkers can drink in moderation took responsibility yesterday for the drunken-driving accident that killed a man and his 12-year-old daughter.


Audrey Kishline of Woodinville, the 43-year-old author of the 1994 book "Moderate Drinking," pleaded guilty in Kittitas County Superior Court to two counts of vehicular homicide in the deaths of Richard and LaSchell Davis of Yakima County.


In the courtroom, Kishline trembled, clutched her lawyer's hand and said little, having already signed a statement admitting she was drunk March 25 when she drove onto the eastbound lanes of Interstate 90 heading west and struck the Davises' car head-on.


Her blood-alcohol was .26, more than three times the state's legal limit.


After the hearing, she gave a brief statement and answered questions from reporters, saying her moderate-drinking program had been nothing but a way for her to deny her problem drinking. Two months before the crash, she said, she dropped out of the program and joined Alcoholics Anonymous. But it wasn't long before she was consuming so much wine at night she would drink herself to sleep.
Don S

RRecovery

Maybe AA or any other program doesn't work for someone who needs detoxing first.

earlybird

Don,....she literally wrote the book on moderate drinking.

Are you actually suggesting that AA sent her back out to drink and ultimately killed those people??? Shame. If her moderate way was working,..then why, I wonder, did she feel she needed to seek other forms of help?? Hmmmmmmmmm.....

And alcohol in Orange Juice??? Ive never been carded at Denny's

Dan

Here we go...
Gonna watch this one

But not before I say this;
I think it's a humanly tragic, to use this woman's demise, as an example, regardless of which side of the debate(!) you're on.

2dayzmuse

No program is successful if you don't work it the way it is intended. You can't make it to second base if you don't run to first, first. Okay, you can, but in the game of baseball you would be called out.

Music

[QUOTE=Don SWhat she was doing when she drove drunk was trying to get sober in AA. Evidently not successfully.Don S[/QUOTE]

Correction Don. She wasn't "trying" to get sober in AA. Everyone I've ever known in AA who was "trying" to stay sober, stayed sober.

earlybird

I know you dont really believe that. Thats just the thing,...this disease NEVER only hurts the alcoholic. EVER. It always hurts loved ones, jobs, friends. Always. I used to say "Who cares,...Im only hurting myself" But I never realized that I wouldnt have ever spoken those words if someone hadnt said "You are drinking to much"

That person was being harmed by my drinking. They wouldnt have said that if they werent. Every alcoholic loves to say that they NEVER drive drunk. That is BS. I would bet good money that every single alcoholic has driven after drinking atleast once. We sure arent going to go without booze, so if the corner store is open and nobody drives us there,...we damn sure will drive ourselves unless we have lost our licenses due to drinking (which proves drinking is causing chaos in your life already)

nocellphone

I don't see this as an indictment of the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. It sounds like one woman's continued attempts to run her life on self-will, using alcohol as a very potent fuel. Unfortunately, this is just the one that made the papers that day. This kind of story is as old as alcoholism itself. The only possible difference is this:

How many other people were harmed or killed as a result of her brilliant book, I shudder to think?

2dayzmuse

Bingo!

nocellphone

I've heard it said that "trying is lying".

Dan

Or 'Trying is dying'.
My counselor in rehab said that, she did

BaBa OReiley

***Two months before the crash, she said, she dropped out of the program and joined Alcoholics Anonymous. But it wasn't long before she was consuming so much wine at night she would drink herself to sleep.***

very weak argument Don S, she dropped out of the program and joined Alcoholics Anonymous, that's good stuff to hear, but the only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking. you can get membership at a gym too, but you ain't going to lose fat or build muscle unless you work at it!

as for the substitute for alcohol..... the only one i've found that does the trick is spirituality, and it's free. well that and standing up real fast while holding my breath!

Don S

Precisely, Dan. So when, I wonder, will 12-step adherents stop doing it? At the time of the accident, she was participating in a program which advocates complete abstinence. Evidently she was not accomplishing that. Doesn't make the goal of abstinence unrealistic, now does it?
MM isn't responsible for what she did, and obviously moderate drinking didn't work for her.

From the MM web site:
"...approximately 30% of MM members go on to abstinence-based programs....After completing 30 days of abstinence (step two of the MM program) and then starting the moderation part of the program, you may discover that it is more difficult for you to moderate your drinking than to abstain. In this case, consider a self-management goal of abstinence."

Are you suggesting that MM did, earlybird?

Not a single, solitary one. They were killed or harmed as a result of somebody making the choice to drink and then do something stupid. You know that, nocellphone.

Heck, I'm not even a member of MM or an advocate of moderate drinking. I just think this old canard deserves a decent burial.
I think that's a mixed metaphor.
Don S

Peter

You know what the unfortunate thing is?

Myself and many others who practise the AA principles already know that "moderate drinking" is no longer possible for the alcoholic.It is a simple truth about our condition that many refuse to accept.

Powerlessness, surrender, complete abstainance and faith in a Higher Power are all core beliefs of AA that has been subject to much criticism even when they have kept a drunk like me sober for eight years.

If this womans case is to be used as an example I can use it strenghten my own conviction that I made the right choice in AA, nothing more, because I already know another truth about alcoholism." Some will go on to the bitter end..."

Do not ask me why but a quote comes to mind....."To whom much is given, much is expected....."

earlybird

No,...Im SAYING that moderation for alcoholics does not exist. She was chasing a fantasy. If you ARE able to drink in moderation,..you arent an alcoholic. Once you pass over that line,...there is NO going back. I think Moderation Management is nothing but a bunch of alcoholics in denial. Im sorry, but thats the way I feel. Alcoholics who arent "ready" to give it up,...or ready to ADMIT they ARE alcoholics....turn to this MM because it still says they can drink. Why would a problem drinker even want to keep alcohol in there life? Is drinking alcohol really worth working very very hard to try and even get back to a point where you can drink normally again? Whats the draw?? Besides the buzz. THATS WHAT IT IS,...AND WE ALL KNOW IT. I love Orange Crush. But if my doctor told me I was deathly allergic to it,...I wouldnt trust some program that said they can make it so it wouldnt hurt me ever again. I'd play it on the safe side.

nocellphone

I'm not sure I do know that, Don. I wasn't referring to some random victim of a drunk driver. I was referring to any number of alcoholics struggling to recover who found Ms. Kishline's "Bible of the Easier, Softer Way", gave her system a shot (no pun intended) and paid for it with their health and/or their lives. Yes, each individual makes the choice whether or not to take that next drink, so the responsibility is ultimately on them, but I feel it is staggeringly irresponsible to make such a book widely available when there are so many people who simply cannot drink in moderation.

Every alcoholic I've ever met has wanted to "drink like 'normal' people", and all who've tried have found that "one is too many and a thousand never enough". They all wanted to be the exception, the unique one. AA has a term for that: terminal uniqueness.

My contention is simply this: offering a program of moderate alcohol consumption to a person with alcoholic brain chemistry is like giving a razor blade to a baby. It's just dangerous, and it's not well-thought out.

Y'know who knows this better than anyone today? Audrey Kishline.

I don't fault her for this. It was just her denial, the very heart of the disease of alcoholism.

RRecovery

Originally Posted by RRecovery
I can't think of anything more excruciating than trying to limit one's drinks.

...unless it's going back to AA before driving drunk and killing people. Would you folks quit using Kishline as an example of the perils of moderate drinking?! What she was doing when she drove drunk was trying to get sober in AA. Evidently not successfully.
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My quote had nothing to do with Kishline. It had a lot to do with people on this thread who were still trying to limit their drinking and apparently unsuccessfully. For me sitting around and waiting an hour for my next allotted drink fits my deifinition of HELL